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Discussion on Removal of bots from haircoat

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Anitra Bryant (Anitra)
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2000 - 5:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

What is the best way to remove bots from the haircoat?
I am assuming this should be done away from anywhere the horse grazes...
What did NOT work well: bic razors (the double-bladed, disposable kind) on wet OR dry coat.
Any ideas, fellow readers? Thanks, Anitra
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Linda norton (Norto)
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2000 - 7:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I used one of those stones you get for dry feet for people, it works great.
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Lois Berenyi (Lois)
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2000 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I worm with ivermectin every two months except for a double Strongid worming in the fall. I have never had bot eggs since doing so and that is over ten years. Before ivermectin my horses had them every summer. One of the noticeable benefits of ivermectin wormer. I repeat...not a single bot egg!
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Jackie (Charisma)
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2000 - 5:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lois,
Ivomec takes care of the eggs that the horse ingests but does nothing to stop the fly from depositing eggs on your horse, so I'm not sure what you mean. The fly will deposit the eggs usually on the legs and side where the horse can reach to chew on himself therefore ingesting the nasty eggs where they then incubate and hatch. This is where Ivomec comes in.
Anitra,
They make a bot knife that works great!
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Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2000 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Anitra, I think what Lois meant was that ivermectin seems to have taken a tole on the bot fly population. I started using ivermectin when it first came out in injectible form. Up 'til then, tube worming was the way to go. A ghastly way. Then came pastes and granules to sprinkle on food ( yeah, right, three granules in a tub of feed and the horse would turn his nose up ). But now that Lois mentions it, I haven't noticed a bot fly or eggs in years.
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Lois Berenyi (Lois)
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2000 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I repeat, none of the horses on the farm (and I have 9 at the moment) have had any bot eggs at all for several years. I mentioned this to a vet once and he said it was common in his practice that the bot issue was a "non-issue" since the year-round use of ivermectin. When people started rotating wormers the bot eggs reappeared. His theory was that the ivermectin used so widely in our area, almost exclusive to other wormers, had eradicated the fly to a large extent. I have a bot knife actually and last time I looked it was covered with rust. I also used to use the sandpaper blocks sold for bot egg removal and have no use for them either. Perhaps my geographic area (New Jersey, a small rural area surrounded by suburban developments) doesn't produce as many bot flies as perhaps warmer areas or areas where there are more livestock. It would be interesting to have Dr. O's comments on this and others who may be experiencing a bot-egg-free existance among their horses.
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Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2000 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey, Lois.....My horses were in north Jersey for many years. Now they are in south Jersey. Maybe New Jersey can become known for " the mystery of the disappearing bot "( Jersey's been known for a lot worse, after all ). I have to agree with you 100% and thank you for calling my attention to the absence of the little buggers so I can catch up on enjoying their not being around.
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Anitra Bryant (Anitra)
Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2000 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you all for your replies. I have had this horse since March, and she is the only horse who has been pastured here in over ten years. When I bought her and caught her up on her worming, vaccinations, dentistry, etc. in March, I decided it was an ivermectin year and have wormed her with iver every 6-8 weeks (as well as the recommended double whack of Strongid). I've been religious (no, not just do it and pray) that the wormings are no farther than 8 weeks apart; I also use a fly spray every other day and after washdowns. I am puzzled: why the bots now, for pete's sake? Am I missing something? - As well as the obvious: I have never HAD to remove them, so I was searching for the best method.
Thanks for letting me vent.
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Melanie (Echo)
Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2000 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi, Anitra I read in Equus that if you put vaseline on the bot eggs on the horse it smoothers and kills the larva. It's easier than picking them off,and you get them all.Hope it helps. Melanie.
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Jordana Meisner (Presario)
Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2000 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Anitra - you're seeing the bot eggs now because now is bot egg time! :-) Seriously, this is when I start seeing them. A bot knife works great. I'm sure the vaseline works great too, but it's such a mess when mixed with dirt, hay, bedding, and general horse slobber - yuck! :-)
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2000 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Elizabeth,
Lois's point is that by interrupting the life cycle (killing the ingested larvae), she has prevented having adult egg laying bot flies in the area that lay the eggs. Since the horse is neccasary for the cycle this is effective as long as all horses in flying range are treated aggressively.
DrO
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claire sidebottom (Claire)
Posted on Saturday, Sep 16, 2000 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi - I use a block that is sold for the purpose of getting these things off, looks like a sanding block and is of coarse, open texture. It works well and is only about £2. A shedding blade also works. I have been told that proximity to cattle means a lot more bot flies.
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Anthony T. Regalbuto (Theman)
Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2000 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi, First of all, be advised that I deworm my mare rotationally, and I have a question in reference to the deworming process. I dewormed my mare with Ivermectin on November 1st after a couple heavy frosts. Afterward, I noticed that I didn't get all the bot eggs off the insides of her legs. I know I should take the eggs off; however, should I deworm with Ivermectin again on her next deworming date, which is January 1st 2001? or should I continue with her rotational schedule? Thanks.
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Anthony T. Regalbuto (Theman)
Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2000 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Anitra, I use a bot knife that I've found to very helpful in removing bot eggs; however, the process is time consuming, and very tedious. What I usually do is start early in October, and every so often as I go to the barn to groom or whatever, I take some of the eggs off until they are all removed. I find this method to be less tedious, and more efficient.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2000 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

What are you using on the rotation?
DrO
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Anthony T. Regalbuto (Theman)
Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2000 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

DrO, my rotational schedule is like this:
Jan. 1st---Strongid-P
March 1st---Safe-Guard
May 1st---Ivermectin
July 1st---Strongid P (double dose)
Sept 1st---Safe-Guard
Nov 1st---Ivermectin

I've been doing this for almost 5 years, am I doing anything wrong? Is there room for improvement?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 6:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, as explained in the article on deworming neither the Strongid or SafeGuard are larvicidal for small or large strongyles. Therefore under normal management conditions your horse is being exposed to the dangerous large strongyle larvae and small strongyles may be building up over time. I recommend you follow one of the schedules put forth in the article on deworming.
DrO
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Anthony T. Regalbuto (Theman)
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 9:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

DrO, so what I'm reading is that both Strongid and Safeguard dont kill the larvae of small, and large strongyles, and apparently Quest, and Ivermectin do. Is that correct?

I would like to start my mare on the deworming program that starts with Quest every 3 months, the next year Ivermectin every 6 weeks etc etc etc. I just recently dewormed with Ivermection on November 1st. What would your advice be, as to when to start the Quest program?

One more thing, my mare is boarded with two other horses that get dewormed twice a year. There have been a total of 4 horses that have been boarded at this farm for many years, including mine. Currently there are 3. Is the Quest program described above, good enough to ensure the protection of my horse from parasites?

Thanks again, Anthony
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes that is correct. Start in Jan it is easy to remember.
DrO
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Anthony T. Regalbuto (Theman)
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry for being a pest DrO, but I have one more question. Let's say I treat with Quest on January 1st, April 1st, July 1st, and then October 1st. So in "addition" to the Quest 4 times a year, I should treat double Strongid paste somewhere in between. Let's say, as an example, I do the double Strongid on August 15th. Does that sound correct?

Sorry again, I hope I'm not too annoying.

Anthony
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Anthony T. Regalbuto (Theman)
Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2000 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Perhaps one of the members of this board can answer the question I posed to DrO. I understand he may be busy; however, I'm a very impatient person, and I apologize for this imperfection.

I want to change my deworming process to the Quest program stated in DrO's article on deworming. It involves rotating from Quest the first year to Ivermectin the second year, then reverting back to Quest on the third year.

This deworming program calls for Strongid-P (double dose)to be administered in between the Quest treatments during the first year, and in between two Ivermectin treatments during the second year. Now reverting to my previous posted question that was not answered fully. #1) Is the Strongid-P (double dose)administered in addition to the Quest, or does it take the place of one of these treatments? #2) during the second year, the program calls for Strongid-P (double dose)to be administered in between two Ivermectin treatments, same question, is the Strongid-P (double dose) administered in addition to the Ivermectin or does it take the place of one of these treatments. Thanks, and once again, forgive me for my impatience. Anthony
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S. T. Bruce (Kari)
Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2000 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

As I understand Dr.O's regiment, the Strongid-P is administered in addition to the regular worming program. Dr. O can correct me if I'm in error.
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Denise Martin (Denisem)
Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2000 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi I'm new to this, but I just had to give my two cents worth. My experience with Quest was not good. My girlfriend wormed her yearling with it and became very sick we didn't know at the time what it was until 8 months later and every test you could imagine and $6000 later. We contact Quest Co. with this and they offer to pay for everything only because they had a product that was new on the market and had not a lot of research done one it. I'm real nervous about new products out there. Have you considered homeopathic worming?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2000 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Denise,
Your characterization of Quest is incorrect. Much research has indicated that Quest has a 3 to 5 times safety factor built in. Also the active ingredient (mibilomycin) has been used for years in Europe and Australia. We have administed hundreds of doses without a single reaction.

We too have had good experiences with Fort Dodge, the maker of Quest. Whenever there was any question about their products they offered to help with resolution offering to pay for the testing and even the treatment of the problem in some cases. I have found them to be one of the best pharmaceutical companies to work with.

I know of no homepathic dewormers that have any scientific proof of efficacy and would be interested in any information to the contrary.
DrO
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Anthony T. Regalbuto (Theman)
Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2000 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you Denise for your info on this matter. You mentioned this happening to a yearling, could that have played a factor in it becoming sick? It is my understanding that Quest is very safe for adult horses.

My worry is about just making a change, with the idea that I will improve the overall health of my mare, while in fact, I may not. I'm really very confused about all of this. At this point in time, my mare seems healthy, and you know what they say "If it aint broke, dont't fix it", decisions, decisions.

Is Quest really a guaranteed safe product or not?
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barbara carry (Oscarvv)
Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2000 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

My understanding of Quest is that it is safe. But it is important not to overdose, especially young horses.
Denise, what exactly was wrong with the yearling? Also, what type of homeopathic worming do you do? Have you had fecals done to be confident in it's effectiveness?
I use Quest on my weanlings. My horses are unfortunately on pasture that has had horses on it with poor or no worming schedule. So I do Strongid daily and Quest every 2 month and Ivermectin after every 2 wormings with Quest. I may halt the Strongid daily for 1-2 months when it gets really cold here.
Barbara
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Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2000 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Andrew: As Dr. O says, all the information on Quest points to it being a very safe product. There are, however, many anecdotal stories about it that are circulating. It seems that some of the bad experiences are from overdoses, and occasionally, when administered to a heavily infested animal, cause a huge amount of worms to be expelled at once which could result in colic. Please, Dr.O, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2000 - 12:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry, I forgot to add that there is nothing to get frazzeled about....just periodically run a fecal sample over to your vet's for analysis.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2000 - 7:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

You are right Elizabeth, the stories have been greatly exaggerated about Quest and we saw the exact same thing happen when ivermectin became available 20 years ago. The truth is these two dewormers are far less toxic yet far more effective than the previous generations of dewormers including some of the natural products that use to be advocated like tobacco.
DrO
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Denise Martin (Denisem)
Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2000 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Barbara,
I will try to answer your questions on this yearling the best I can. All I know is the test we ran were for EPM he acted very weak in his back end almost like wobbles. We x-ray from head to toe thinking he had maybe factor something still nothing. Test for toxins in the blood still nothing. Had a chiropractor from Australia adjust him still nothing, acupuncture did help so we continue with that for 6 months. All his skin on his back pasterns and fetlocks peeled off like a puzzle. Today the horse is doing great. If they can only talk to us. We deal in lameness and they can be so frustrating. Before we sold our boarding facility I had 30 horses and everyone had their own ideas of worming. What's is the right thing for our horses? I agree with Elizabeth do a fecal sample. I had a horse that came to my boarding place with tape worms didn't know until they did a fecal sample on her. My vet is faxing me over the homeopathic wormer recipe. I will post it when I get it. If you don't here from me it's because I'm in Calif. for the holidays.
Denise
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Denise Martin (Denisem)
Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2000 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The word is fracture not factor. Didn't catch it until it was to late.
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barbara carry (Oscarvv)
Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2000 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Denise for your reply. Very strange what happened to the yearling.
I look forward to seeing your homeopathic wormer ingredients.
Happy Turkey Day
Barbara
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2000 - 7:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Again I feel the need to intervene here on the idea of homeopathic deworming thought: considering the seriousness of parasitism in horses, I think anyone would be foolish to use a product of uncertain efficacy and safety. Sorry to be a pest.
DrO
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Denise Martin (Denisem)
Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2000 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Barbara, Anthony, and Dr.O
I apologize for the mics information I had given on the homeopathic worming. You see when I owned my boarding facility I had to do what the boarders ask me to do and one lady who was really into homeopathic treatments ask me to worm her horse with wormwood. After a long talk with our vet last night there is no natural wormer that is going to kill parasites. So disregard my stupidity and the recipe for homeopathic worming.

Our vet felt this after running a fecal on the lady's horses and found parasites and then ran a sample on ones that were wormed with say Invermectin and those had no parasites.

The yearling colt end results. Our vet had said he had Ataxia. Ataxia is when an overload of parasites die in their system. Dr. O can probably touch more on this.
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barbara carry (Oscarvv)
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2000 - 7:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Denise :)
Barbara
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2000 - 9:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

You said it pretty well yourself Denise. I am not sure of the connection beween deworming and ataxia above unless the veterinarian supposes a aberrant migration of parasite larvae into the CNS and then the deworming killed them resulting in local inflammation and ataxia(?)
DrO
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Margie Quirik (Mquirk)
Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2001 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi, Regarding bot eggs - I have never had a problem with bot eggs, as a matter of fact have never even seem them before. I am in the process of purchasing a 15 yr old mare. she is loaded with bot eggs. I tried to remove them with a disposable razor, shedding blade and straight edge blade with no luck. I will try the stone. Should I worm her with ivermectin immediately and continue to try and remove the eggs? I have two horses at home and am concerned they will get bots from her. She has been housed in a disgusting mucky, filthy stall and would just assume leave the bot eggs there. Thanks for any feed back. Margie
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2001 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I would deworm immediately and yes try to remove the eggs.
DrO
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Bonita (Bonita)
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2001 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Has anyone actually tried the "vaseline" method for "smothering" bot eggs mentioned by Equus via Melanie's previous post (09/14/00)?

My horses - including a weanling - came in COVERED yesterday! With a broken leg it is impossible for me to bend down (plus the docs have read me the riot act re: dealing with the horses for awhile!) & my desparately overworked husband can't hold & scrape at the same time (not to mention he just doesn't have the time).

The vaseline would be a nice easy method if it truly worked - messy or not. No one's getting ridden or even really groomed right now, so the mess would be irrelevant. But does it work?

Dr. O? Anyone?

Thanks! Bonnie
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2001 - 6:18 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Bonnie,
No I have not tried this not have I seen any research on the subject. It is an interesting idea that may work but I am not sure how you would tell. Also I would wonder if it does work if something a little less messy, like mineral oil, might also work.
DrO
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A.MANSFIELD (Florence)
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 29, 2001 - 6:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have read somewhere that washing with warm vinegar will make the eggs 'hatch' and at the same time kill the larvae. Does anyone know if this works or even if it could work? Thanks
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Thursday, Aug 30, 2001 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have searched numerous texts, veterinary journals, and the scientific literature for possible references about research into topical treatments for bot eggs and cannot find support for any. The various recommendations all have some logic behind them but I cannot find proof.
DrO
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A.MANSFIELD (Florence)
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 25, 2001 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have just discovered a product called 'parasite repel' made by Barrier Healthcare. As directed I sprayed the bots eggs and they simply fell off when I ran the bot knife over them. I suspect that I could have washed them off. I think that it kills the larvae and can also be used for lice etc.
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Anthony T. Regalbuto (Theman)
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 25, 2001 - 11:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Florence, where can I get this product? If it works that efficiently on bot eggs, I want it! Does barrier healthcare have a website? or can I buy it from any company e.g. Stateline Tack?

Thanks again,

Anthony
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2001 - 4:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello A.
What are the ingredients in the product.
DrO
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A.MANSFIELD (Florence)
Posted on Sunday, Oct 14, 2001 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry for the delay in replying to your questions about the product 'Parasite Repel'. The web site is www.flyrepel.com and also www.ragwort.com.

The ingredients are high grade concentrated herbal oils and vegetable surfactant - the claim is that this is non toxic and non-irritant.

You do need to spray generously. They say that the product is to rid all animals of ectoparasites for up to 24 hours.
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