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Pennie Shewmaker (Cactus)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 3, 2000 - 7:54 am: |   |
Hello. My mare is finally sound and I thought ready to go (she is a barrel horse). But after being off for 60 days and taking my time conditioning her I am having a problem. Approx. 90 days ago her RBC count was at the very low end of normal (RBC 6.5), I don't have the old blood test with me but basically all counts were at the low range. Being a performance horse and one that is being asked to run every weekend and conditioned during the week I would think I would want her RBC around 11 or even 12. My vet was a little concerned with her RBC being low and by looking at the test he could tell she was producing RBC but loosing them and suggested an ULCER. That was treated with gastroguard and taken care of. I gave her two liver/iron/B-12 shots (one in July and the other in August). After still being able to tell she wasn't running I had a nother CBC test done the other day and the tests are as follows:
WBC 7.7
RBC 7.30
Hemoglobin 12.1
Hematocrit 33.0
MCV 45.1
MCH 16.5
MCHC 36.6
Platelets 179
MPV 6.8
RDW 19.6 (abnormal high)
Neutrophils % 66.0
Lymphocytes % 28.9
Monocytes % 3.3
Eosinophis % 1.8
Basophils % 0.0
Total Neutrophils # 5.1
Total Lymphocytes # 2.2
Total Monocytes # 254.1
Total Eosinophis # 138.6
Total Basophils # 0.00
I have read all the articles and searched for everything regarding blood counts and heart and everything else. I just need help. She is on pasture during the day but gets fed twice a day with Omolene 200/alfalfa & Orchard Grass Hay (good quality), Opt-E-Horse Complete, Red Cell (for 90 days now), Equi Jewell (rice bran) and then got the two shots of Liver/Iron/B-12 and hasn't improved much at all. She also has been on a regular parasite program and getting wormed every 30 days.
I realize these readings are falling in the "normal" range. But she is not running hard and you can tell that she is not up to where she should be. Any suggestions or thoughts??? HELP! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 3, 2000 - 11:19 am: | |
Was this sample taken following 10 minutes of good exercise?
DrO |
Pennie Shewmaker (Cactus)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 3, 2000 - 3:55 pm: | |
No it was taken while the horse was at rest. I just took her to the vet. Actually even argued your point with him! First I ask him why he didn't exercise her prior to taken the blood and he proceeded to tell me that it did not make a difference. I pretty much quoted everything you said about the blood reserve and all that and he told me that he knew the spleen held blood but it would only make a difference if she had a tramatic injury like a bad cut or something and was loosing blood. I even ask him if he would go ahead and let me lunge her for a short period and he INSISTED there was absolutely no reason. Needless to say I was not happy because I totally understand how you explained this and why it makes such a difference. I am actually taking her back tonight to have blood drawn again and having a complete blood chemestry done.
I spoke to Dr. Gene White in Texas and he explained to me that the 2 - liver/iron/B-12 shots I gave her wouldn't do any good giving them a month apart. That it was like a human taking vitamins one day and waiting thirty days to taken them again. He said I may want to look at an injectable vitamin with my "B" vitamins and things and give them to her on a weekly basis in the vein and that I should be shooting for my Hemoglobin to be around 14 and above and the Hematocrit to be around 40 and above for a performance horse. He told me her counts look more like a PASTURE HORSE!!! I guess I will have yet another talk with my "local" vet this afternoon.
Thank you for any suggestions. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 4, 2000 - 8:09 am: | |
Though this principle of horses PCV has been around for decades I do not understand why many vets have not got it yet. Though there are hundred of references to this in the literature: tell him to review page 274 of the Current Equine Vet Therapy 4. At least if you do not think it will aggrevate him badly.
 DrO |
Chris Mills (Count)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2001 - 5:58 pm: | |
My problem is similar to Pennie's. 3 of our horses have had cbc's for one reason or another.
All were diagnosed anemic. One horse had had a hemolytic episode and was taken to LSU. The other two had nothing like that---ie cold of short duration. To make a long story short, we gave one of the horses that had a cold b12 injections for about 6wks and rechecked the CBC.
He was still slightly anemic. These horses are on nutrena pellets appropriate for age supplemented with processed alfalfa, bermuda grass hay and pasture. On daily dewormer (strongid c2x), dewormed 2x/yr for tapes, and on ivermectin or quest for the other dewormings.
I don't know what to do about this----my vet is a LSU grad and the LSU vets say that exercise prior to drawing blood for a cbc falsely elevates the counts. The horses look good---shiny coats--energetic---. Hate to keep giving horses supplements when they may in fact be quite normal. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 18, 2001 - 2:56 pm: | |
For years I have trying to convince everyone who does not exercise the horses it will be artificially depressed in a significant portion of horses. But your vet is not the only one who believes this and I have seen this recommendation even in books on the clinical evaluation of lab results in horses.
There is nothing inherently artificial about the rise in HCT (also known as PCV) during exercise: it is the actual red blood cell mass the horse has available to deliver oxygen when needed. The question really comes down to how do we know what is normal. Well, labs take large number of samples from normal horses and from there statistically determine the average range that 95% (one standard deviation) of the healthy horses fall into. Seems simple enough except that horses do not have a single PCV value but a range depending on whether the spleen has been activated or not (See the article for more on this). Both exercise and the regular excitement of having the vet around for some horses cause the spleen to release RBCs from the spleen. Or say you took a temperature first, or the horse passes his arch enemy pasture mate on the way to the check, these are some of the variables you have to deal with in getting a accurate PCV and establishing normals for a lab. Most labs use the 32 to 48% range.
M problem with this is the same as yours. When I first started practicing I found large numbers of very healthy horses, competing at the top of their endeavors, with slightly low to low normal PCVs (say 28 to 34%) when a sample was taken from horses having been at rest for a while. No matter how much I spent, time and money wise, on diagnostics you could not find a disease process. And no matter how much you spent on vitamin/iron hematinics the resting values did not change.
Put this all together and I believe the post exercise value is more reproducable and better correlates with the health of the horse. Surprisingly, the literature does not address this question very well and I think there is room for controversy. For more on this see : Equine Diseases: Cardiovascular, Blood, and Immune System: The Diagnosis of Anemia.
DrO
PS: Chris, this is Pennies discussion about her problem. Since you are asking a new question you should have placed this into its own discussion. I will move this into a new discussion in a few days, though it still will be in this forum. |
Chris Mills (Count)
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 18, 2001 - 3:52 pm: | |
THANKS, THANKS, THANKS.
I am printing this out and taking it to my vet. She is not at all adverse to other opinions and does not take offense when questioned.
You also addressed normal value issue I was struggling with. By the way, our horses are laid back TWHs that love people and don't get excited at being fooled with. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 19, 2001 - 7:46 am: | |
Good Luck and let us know what she says.
DrO |
Chris Mills (Count)
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 7, 2001 - 7:16 am: | |
Sorry, Dr O. I couldn't find the new place.
A filly of ours had a hgb of 8.5gm/dl (blood work done bec. had been very ill and taken to LSU for treatment in spring with no conclusive explanation of illness.) I did not believe the results because of the overall appearance of the horse. So, I drew blood after exercise 8 days later and the hgb was 12.7 gm/dl! My vet knows results and is very pleased but have not yet been able to sit down and show her the article. Will be doing that today.
Thanks again for all your help. This site has calmed me down and given me fresh perspectives on many issues. |
joan vecsey
New Member
Username: Jvecsey
Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 23, 2002 - 10:07 pm: | |
I have a 23 year old thoro/quarter horse. Biggie has been a retired companion to my mare. He is lively in the paddock. Very few vets are around here-so I feel I am on my own. This past spring, he did not shed out as cleanly as he had especially on his back (which is swayed). In May, he developed lymphangitis in his right hock (huge swellling, fever etc.) HE WAS TREATED WITH ANTIBIOTICS, BUTE, COLD HOSE ETC. Within 3 days, he acted like himself and in 2 weeks, the swelling had disappeared. Two months later it reoccurred without the fever, feeling of illness etc. Treatment was the same-with additional days of antibiotic. While sweilling did not go down completely, his leg looked good. Thre weeks later, he his again swollen from his hock down--but like a badly stocked up horse--not grossly swollen like before. Bute makes more of a difference than poultices or raps or even cold hosing. But when I stop the bute he swells. He is eager to trot up for his grain with no lameness and over the summer has lost more weight. Blood test showed him "slightly anemic." Vet has no suggestion other than weight supplement. He is on quality hay 9as much as he wants), Purina Senior, a multivitamin and Flex Free. |
joan vecsey
Member
Username: Jvecsey
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 23, 2002 - 10:11 pm: | |
Sorry, but I also meant to add--his feet smell very thrushy. I have been applying thrush remedies. My mare does not have this and stalls are pretty clean. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 6984
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 24, 2002 - 7:58 am: | |
You do not list any values from the blood work so I will refer you to the article on anemia that is associated with this forum. Lymphangitis also has an article of its own at, » Equine Diseases » Lameness » Swollen, Painful, Legs. It is not unusual for this problem to become chronic and require repeated therapy and ongoing supportive treatment for swelling, see the article for more on this.
Lastly I would like to comment that the reason for the problem may be decreased immune function from Equine Cushinoid Disease. To learn more about this see, » Equine Diseases » Endocrine Disorders » Cushing's Syndrome and Pituitary Tumors.
DrO |
