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Key Tucker
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 5:55 pm: |   |
My horse has had diarrhea for about 6 weeks now.My vet has done everything she can think of the teeth, worming, antibiotics, rectal biopsy(neg),ultasounded the gut, 2 fecel parasitiologies (neg)complete bld count and chemistry profile times 2. The first profile show the total bili 4.8mg/dl normal.60-2.1 GGT 30IU/L norm 7-17 and the AST/SGOT 679 norm 130-470 but the second profile eveything was normal range. We changed him from alfalfa to coastal hay but had to change back because he started losing weight from not eating. He is now on dexamethasome at 2o mg a day. Through all of this he has drank large amounts of water, from 30 to 50 gals a day he weights about 1100lbs. The more he drinks the more watery his diarrhea is. Can a psychogenic thirst disorder cause this diarrhea? |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 1216
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 6:08 pm: | |
Has your vet heard of biosponge?
www.platinumperformance.com
Just a thought...
Good luck! |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter
Post Number: 334
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 6:09 pm: | |
Wow Key that's alot of water. Did his diarrhea go away when you removed the alfalfa? I know some horses don't tolerate it well. Some of the horses at the barn I work at get diarrhea from the alfalfa and drink LOTS of water. For these horses we switched them to grass hay and beet pulp to keep their weight on and it worked. Their stalls were terrible to clean. If he won't eat the pure grass hay maybe a mix with a little alfalfa in it would keep him interested. Good Luck and welcome to the advisor |
Key Tucker
New Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 6:58 pm: | |
Hi thanks for the welcome! No the diarrhea did not go way without the alfalfa. He is a very picky eater. We have not tryed biosponge becauseI believe it is more for toxin type diarrhea. My horse is a 12 yr American Saddlebred. He is not a high strunge type |
Katrina
Member
Username: Kthorse
Post Number: 487
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 7:09 pm: | |
welcome.
I hope someone can help on this site. I am sure Dr o will give you great advise. I will be watching to see the outcome |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter
Post Number: 336
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 9:29 pm: | |
Key the only other thing, that I can come up with that isn't medical would be salt consumption. If they eat excessive amounts of salt or mineral, it can give them diarrhea and excessive thirst. Is your horse stall kept? We had one horse that would consume one of those little salt blocks in a day, and it came out the other end quite explosive, plus he drank all the time. Then one year I bought my horses one of those horse mineral blocks and my gelding devoured almost all of it 50#'s in 2 days, he had quite the diarrhea also. Is he on any new supplements? If he is pasture kept could there be a weed he is getting into? or eating on some type of tree? I had a mare get profuse diahrrea from a locust tree years ago (eating the bark) and leaves. Just some non-medical causes to ponder, until Dr.O. chimes in. |
Key Tucker
New Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 6:11 am: | |
He only gets platinum performance added to his pelleted food. He eats Prime made by Nutrenna(it is the only thing he will eat)He is in a stall I take him out for about an hour every day and that just started last week to stimulate his appetite.We have not worked him for about 2weeks,just hand walked. I bought this horse 6 wks ago the barn where he was had just got a new shippment of alflafa that smelled really sweet,He had a little diarrhea in his tail which was braided up but it was not saturated. When we put him on the trailer it very watery. But when we got home 5 hrs later there was some that was not as watery. So we believe this started with the hay. Also where he came from they water at certain times but we water when needed. Yesterday we went out to graze arround 9am (I live in GA) for an hour he did have very watery diarrhea. He drank about 8 gals when we came back in. Does anyone know a good probiotic I have tryed to get Equine Dophilus but it is back ordered Thanks for your thoughts |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16049
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 10:36 am: | |
Hello Key,
I do have a a few observations and a few more questions. To get first to your direct question of does PD cause diarrhea. Not in all cases, many older horses with Cushings drink 15 to 20 gals a day manage to absorb it all and urinate it out with normal stools. However when the ability to absorb the water is exceeded by the amount of water present, a diarrhea will result. Note that with some disease processes this happens with normal amounts of water consumption.
Glucocorticoids can be a primary cause of excessive drinking and that dex clears slowly so at this dosage frequency it is likely that the amount in the body is building. For my questions:- What is the age of this horse?
- When did the PD start?
- Has a urinalysis been done?
- To repeat Diane's question above, does this horse consume an excessive amount of salt?
- Has there ever been any evidence this was an inflammatory bowel problem and has the dex helped?
- Also it occurs that you should speak to the previous owner/caretaker and ask to have this horse's previous medical records sent to your veterinarian. Has this been done and what was found?
Our first step should be to devise ways to differentiate kidney, bowel, endocrine (and pharmacological), or other less likely problem.
DrO |
Key Tucker
New Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 12:52 pm: | |
Hi Dr O,Thanks for responding he is 12 yr old I noticed him drinking a lot of water right after I got him more than 6 wks ago.No urinalysis has been done.On his lab work the BUN/Creat ratio was 15.5urea nitrogen was17.0 norm14 to 27 creatinine 1.1 norm1.1 to 2 . No he does not get any extra salt except what comes in the platinum proformance. My trainer seems to think the dex helped get is appetite back. I would like to start weaning and see if it makes any differance. I talked to the owner who had him 4 months before I got him and he had no problems he was fed whole corn and alfalfa. Thanks Key |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16061
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 11:00 am: | |
Key,
To fill out the data base we need a urinalysis with a emphasis on the specific gravity and if no disease processes show up in any of the information, you and your vet should consider discontinuing the dex and then if no improvement the steps for diagnosing Medullary Wash Out and Diabetes Insipidus in the article on PU/PD.
DrO |
Key Tucker
New Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 3:20 pm: | |
Hi Dr O, just got back from collecting and taking the urine to the vet. I will let you know what it showed. Thanks |
Susan Jeys
Member
Username: Sjeys
Post Number: 49
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 4:06 pm: | |
Color me impressed...how in the world did you get a urine sample from a horse? I once had a horse that was peeing red and the vet nearly had a heart attack when he saw it and I couldn't get a sample of it to save my life. |
Ann
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 858
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 4:24 pm: | |
Susan you have never been drug tested at a show.. or i should say your horse.. ?? You stand very patiently by the horse with a long wand with a cup attached to it.. and wait.. and wait.. & wait .. and wait somemore..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Susan Jeys
Member
Username: Sjeys
Post Number: 50
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 5:31 pm: | |
No, I guess my horses never did...one of my friends' horses was drug tested once, but I never thought about the logistics of it. I guess you have to lock them in a stall and hang out for awhile. I actually made a stick and attached it to a cup, but my horse was turned out you can imagine when he saw me coming with that, he was like forget it. I swear, sometimes I miss the obvious! |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: Amara
Post Number: 128
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 8:38 pm: | |
the top placing horses on most major racetracks are routinely drug tested after every race.. we teach our horses to "pee on command" by whistling..
most horses will pee after a workout, so whether its the whistling that gets the horses to pee or something that some guy started while waiting for a horse to pee after a race (and lo and behold the horse did urinate -but because of mother nature, not the *whistling) i have no idea..
and yep, they use a cup on the end of a long wand..maybe the whistling calms the horse down so they accept the wand coming at them??? *LOL |
Key Tucker
Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 7:09 am: | |
Susan.it took over 3 hours of watching with the stall door open, He ate all of his hay and then took a nat. We cleaned his stall and put some new shavings he then rolled and bingo!! A clean stall will do it every time. Key |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 1129
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 10:52 am: | |
Tickling them on the belly makes them pee. Use a handful of hay to tickle them with.
Some horses may kick against this, be careful!
Of course, as Key says, fresh bedding is always irresistible. |
Katrina
Member
Username: Kthorse
Post Number: 493
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 11:52 am: | |
My horse likes to go in the same spot. Its on a main road with tons of cars going by. He does this after a workout in the arena across the road from where I board. It is soooo imbarrasing. People even slow down in there cars to witness it. I even try to keep him walking but no he plants his feet and thats it. He does it every time without fail at the same exact spot. I dont think I would want to collect a speciman at that time even though it would be a good time.
He used to not want to go in his stall but wait till he was taken out to one of his favourite spots. Just like a dog. He doesnt do that any more. I used to love it. |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 613
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 12:12 pm: | |
I too was going to suggest a freshly bedded stall.
Katrina, your post sounds like it belongs in the barn related accident thread  .
Susan B. |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: Amara
Post Number: 129
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 12:35 pm: | |
currently i drive carriage horses for public tours.. we only work a few nights a week (so we're one of the good guys).... the draft i drive usually has to pee 2x's a night...and we dont go back to the barn... so here we are on the city streets and my horses stops to pee.. and he's a BIG HORSE!.. so there's a heck of a lot!...we usually have all sorts of comments... and quite a big puddle behind... it really makes the bike cops mad cause sometimes they have to ride thru it, but they irritate me too!..
and last week my company and another company were invited to be a part of the musical "Oklahoma" on the stage of one of the top 10 listed performance halls in the world.. amazingly enough we never had any "accidents" with our large draft-tho we set things up so that he got it all out of his system by then!.. but the other company-her horse urinated twice-once on stage (but fortunately during a dress rehersal) and had to defecate several times (including on stage)... his handlers learned to carry a bucket around following him wherever he went!... |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 375
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 9:30 am: | |
Yeah, Key! You are going to find the answers you are looking for here. I had forgotten about all the success stories I have read about here cc the use of Bio Sponge. I am so excited for you to get that horse well and "get thee to the horse show!"
Hey Y'all, Key is down the road from me, and I have seen this beautiful dappled grey Saddlebred... really a cool looking horse! Good luck, Key!
Nancy |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann
Post Number: 269
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 12:26 pm: | |
You say the Vet did fecals for parasites. Did they check for the presence of the salmonellosis bacteria? That will cause long term diarrhea, (even if treated with antibiotics -- and of course, antibiotics administration can cause diarrhea also) though the excessive water drinking doesn't seem to fit with that picture, in my personal experience with salmonellosis. Some of the strains are not too serious so the diarrhea can go on for months without the horse showing other signs of illness. |
Key Tucker
Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 9:05 am: | |
We checked for the salmoellosis 2 times and it was neg. My vet said that they recomand sometimes 5 testings. I have not heard back from the urine so hopefully tomorrow. I did find some equine dophilus and it should be here tomorrow.Nancy thanks for getting me here!! Key |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann
Post Number: 271
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 12:12 pm: | |
Key -- After many weeks had passed after treatments, 5 times was the number of tests I had to do before the horse could be considered "clear." In the first round of the 5 times it came back positive again on one of the later tests, at which point I sat down and cried! Weeks later, he tested clear 5 times -- cause for celebration! I hope your horse is doing better and that you soon solve the mystery. |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 380
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 1:36 pm: | |
... looking forward to you getting this mystery solved, too, Key! So glad you are here, where DrO, and other members like Vicki, who have experienced similar problems may be able to help you out. DrO is a BULLDOG (literally)! Once he gets hold of something, he won't let go until he is satisfied. You know how those Bulldogs are!
Nancy |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann
Post Number: 272
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 1:58 pm: | |
Almost as tenacious as GATORS! |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 381
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 3:01 pm: | |
Uh Oh... we have a Gator lurking here! |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 382
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 3:09 pm: | |
Hey Vicki
Just curious, in case Key's horse turns up with salmonellosis bacteria in one of the next cultures, how was your horse treated for this?
And, in your case I will make an exception to my "Gator Hater" rule! You DO ride horses, and some Arabian horses, at that, so you are definitely an exception to the rule!
Nancy |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann
Post Number: 274
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 9:57 pm: | |
Hey Nancy -- love of horses (and Arabs?) unites even the Noles, Gators and Dawgs!! My horse was treated with the antibiotic, Gentomycin, because that is the antibiotic the culture showed would work. He was also given activated charcoal and fluids by the Vet, via tubing, for the first three days (the black stains from the stuff shooting out projectily are still in that stall). I also had to give the horse Banamine shots twice daily for the first three days. In addition, I had to keep him isolated from my other horses (SEVERAL weeks until he tested clear) and sterilize my boots and manure fork plus washing my hands constantly and not allowing contamination of my clothing. I had to put up additional hot wire and cross fencing to keep the horses from touching noses at the point I was able to turn the patient out. Hay had to be kept in the hay rack, and anything that could have been contaminated by the "squirts" had to be picked up and disposed of in a place where the sun would help neutralize it. Afterward, the stall was totally treated with a clorox solution including the soil being dug out several inches deep. For many weeks I picked up all manure from the pastures and disposed off it outside of the pasture area. In retrospect, the type of salmonellosis the horse had contracted was not a very strong one, and likely brought on due to extreme heat stress. ALL of the measures were probably unnecessary, but at the time we did not know that, so we used aggressive treatment because it might have been necessary. Salmonellosis has to run its course, but my guy was pretty sick at the onset, with the "thumps" (heat stress?). Many days I felt that hosing him off while he was suffering kept him going. The endless days of hand walking him in areas that other horses would not be exposed to the bacteria helped him feel better while protecting them. It also bonded us together forever. Now 12 years later, he is 20 years old and a lovely palomino and white paint horse with an engaging playful and curious personality that makes him seem forever young. |
Key Tucker
Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 7:08 am: | |
Dr O,here are the results of the UA I got over the phone, 1035 sp. gravity(not sure if or where the decmal point goes) ph 6, +4 glucose, 12 to 14 granulated casts, 3 bacteria everything else was normal. We are weaning the dex started last Friday we are going to speed it up and repeat after the dex. My horse is eating better , looks and feels better but still has the diarrhea.It seems in the morning when he gets a large amt of water the diarrhea is more watery. Thanks Key |
Key Tucker
Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 7:10 am: | |
Ps I'm a DOWG!!! Born into it! |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert
Post Number: 384
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 9:08 am: | |
Hey Vicki and Key
I almost hope that Key's horse has what your horse had, Vicki... then, at least they could know what they are dealing with and treat it! Hey Key, there ARE some similarities that I see, and I know you are seeing too. The heat stress really jumps out at me, though your horse is not testing positive for the Salmonellisis bacteria.
AND, isn't it lovely that the DAWGS and GATORS can come together so sweetly over a horse, but put us at a ball game and, well, things could turn ugly!
Nancy |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16115
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 9:53 am: | |
Incredible results Key. I was assuming we would get a low specific gravity because of all the water consumption and that we would use it as a baseline for testing by removing water from the diet to see if the horse could concentrate. However the kidneys are already creating a concentrated urine: the water is only being lost through the digestive tract. I think this rules out any kidney problems, diabetes insipidus, and psychogenic thirst. I think it may also rule out the dex as the cause. All of these would produce dilute urine. He is loosing or secreting water through his gut and his body is having to to produce concentrate urine to counterbalance this loss and is able to do it effectively. So this horse is not producing large amounts of urine is it Key?
Let's see we have a 12y old SB gelding that is essentially normal on clinical evaluation, CBD, routine blood chemistries (I presume that includes electrolytes), rectal biopsy, fecals, fecal cultures, and urinalysis that consumes large amounts or water and has diarrhea. He is receiving daily dexamethasone to which there has been no response.
Could be a osmotic diarrhea, abnormal bowel motility, or an absorption/secretion problem. These could be caused by an inability to digest and absorb a foodstuff, clostridial toxin, other toxin (?), or other unexplained inflammatory bowel disease that has not descended to the level of the biopsy. The lack of symptoms of inflammatory bowel disease and lack of response to the dex make these less likely it seems to me but does not completely rule them out.
Once the dex is discontinued the next step I would suggest is for you to study and discuss with your veterinarian the steps in the article Diseases of Horses » Colic and GI Diseases » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview for undiagnosed diarrhea.
I think I would try first moving the horse slowly off the alfalfa and onto a beet pulp based diet and coastal with adjustments made to the concentrate, which should not contain alfalfa products, to make up for the calories and other nutrients lost by such a move. I know you tried removing the alfalfa before but am uncertain for how long and what other sources of alfalfa might have been in the diet. Another possibility is to refer your horse to UGA for a work up, they may see or know of something that we have not thought of.
DrO
PS: GO DAWGS! |
Key Tucker
Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 5:43 pm: | |
Hi Dr O, he does urinate a good bit he does not have a pond in the middle of his stall but is wet.Two days before those test were done my trainer cut him back on his water to about 7 to 8 5 gal. buckets a day,do think that change could have made the urine more concentrated. What do you think about the granulated cast? We are giving him orchard/ alfalfa mix and he is eating that. I am getting some timathy/clover/orchard in. I got the Equine Dophilus today maybe that will help also Thank Key |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16117
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 9:34 pm: | |
I an afraid restricting water does change the interpretation a bit but to get the level to 10.35 still makes me think the kidney's ability to concentrate is OK.
I am not sure what to make of the casts Key and the best interpretation for the cast would be made by the person who can see it with a complete history. What exactly do they mean by granular cast, if these are mineral casts this is pretty normal in horses and would be unusual to techs not familiar with horse urine which can be quite rich in minerals and mucus-like material, particularly when fed alfalfa. But if they mean granulocytes it may be indicative of inflammation. In either case it is unlikely to be related to your PD / diarrhea. Did you catch a midstream sample or did this include the initial or final part of the urination. Either increases the number of casts.
DrO |
Key Tucker
Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 6:54 am: | |
Dr O, it was midstream Key |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16129
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 12:05 pm: | |
See if you can get a better description of the casts Key. We have had so many questions recently I have included a description of common equine urinalysis findings including some of the types of cast associated with diseases at Diseases of Horses » Urinary System » Normal Urination in Horses.
DrO |
Key Tucker
Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 3:11 pm: | |
Hi Dr O, this is what the report said granular casts 12 to 14/pf, mucus 3+, bacteria 3+(1+motile),crystal,Amorphous urates 3+ ,and WBC occasional. Spec gravity 1.035 pH6.00 Glucose4+ ,protein,ketones Bilrubin and Erythrocytes all neg. The pH is low isn't it? Key |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16141
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 6:30 am: | |
You need to find out what they mean when they say "granular casts". It could mean either grains of mineral which would be OK or collections of granulocytes which might indicate inflammation. Yes 6 is a little low and glucose a little high but a one time look and with dex in the system it is hard to figure what the significance would be concerning your clinical problem. It may be your horse is loosing excess alkali in the diarrhea and the glucose may be secondary to the corticosteroid use. But with the kidney concentrating I don't see how this could be related to the cause of your drinking / diarrhea problem.
DrO |
Key Tucker
Member
Username: Dalledog
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 8:26 am: | |
Hi Dr O Update my horse still has the diarrhea,it might be a a little thicker. We got him grass hay and keep a full hay bag in his stall at all times.Yesterday I rode him for a minute and took him out to eat grass and he was full of himself snorting and blowing.Today is the last dose of dex. So when should I repeat the UA. Also yesterday I saw him urinate and it was a large amount ,it started out clear then there was some that looked very concentrated then clear again is that normal? Thanks Key |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16229
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 7:27 am: | |
Yes the urine description is OK. After such a course I would wait 3 weeks for normal electrolyte and glucose regulation to take place. Did you ever find out about those casts? If the stool seems to be improving I would not do anything but if not the next step for the undiagnosed diarrhea that is not causing signs of illness for me would be either beet pulp or a course of metronidazole as described in the Diarrhea article.
DrO |
Nancy S. Kaplan
Member
Username: Redalert |
