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Discussion on 28 yo TB mare suspected Cushings
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Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 115
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 8:54 am: |   |
Lady failed to shed out this year. She has been depressed - often staying off by herself which is very unusual for her. On her dental exam my Vet found two loose teeth which were pulled. The Vet suggested she has cushings and that she be put on 1.0 pergolide per day. She urinates frequently and her urine smells horrible. She was started on the pergolide June 6 with no visible improvements - on July 5 the Vet had me bump her up to 1 1/2 capsules per day. There has still been no change other than she does appear a little more lively.
After reading through the article again, I should not expect her to shed out this year and should go ahead and clip. My Vet gave me the impression the medication would cause her to shed and that I should see a big improvement almost immediately. I am really confused about what I should be doing with her. She has a good appetite. Is getting free choice alfalfa/grass hay (at least 80% alfalfa) and is drinking well. Since I was expecting big changes on the pergolide, were we too fast to up the dosage? As expensive as the meds are if the increased dosage isn't necessary that would be nice.
Thanks, Cheryl |
jojo
Member
Username: Jojo15
Post Number: 772
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 11:54 am: | |
i've heard figuring out dosage is a chore... and is half the battle.
was she tested? most vets, mine included chose not to test and just assume cushings. Because all horses at this age have the propensity for cushings, or cushings related metabolic disorders. and there are few of them... knowing exactly what she has can help you pinpoint what exactly you need to do. This forum is the best out there, but there is a dr. Eleanor Kellon who is a front runner in the research, she has a yahoo group forum. Equinecushings@yahoo.com. might want to consider joining that list too. People talk only of this. and what they are doing. How things work and what doesn't. Also where you can buy pergolide cheapest in the country, stuff like that...
there are two ways to get pergolide. I have heard one way is much better than the other. BUt i don't know much more about it. I chose NOT to put my horse on pergolide and went with a chasteberry... i put in the feed for about 8 months. Now test came back negative to cushings. And IR, but she is still overweight. and still has some flaring problems in her hoof. BUT i watch her like a hawk...
Just putting her on pergolide doesn't make it go away. There are many other items to address.
The most important thing i learned is that you need to monitor her NSC's and sometimes the alfalfa is a bit too much unless you soak it first. Stop all grains. Stop all sugars. Stop the grazing, or lessen it. Find out what your area is lacking in terms of minerals. and start adding what she needs. Goal is to balance the body to be able to live with the metabolic disorders.
And watch out for secondary problems like laminitis...
Its a bit of a confusing disease because they are just starting to understand what it is and how it is handled. There is alot of conflicting information out there. And it can get very confusing. and get worse before it gets better. For me i had to become the resident expert. I just didn't think my vet was the most up to date on certain things..
Good luck... |
Lee
Member
Username: Paul303
Post Number: 691
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 1:33 am: | |
Jojo brought out all the important points, Cheryl. My 26 yr. old QH mare has been on pergolide for around 2 yrs. It's a frustrating problem to deal with. I saw the hair coat coming for a few years, but was happy to agree with the vets that saw her when they said that "she just didn't look like a Cushings candidate." But I was uneasy....came here to this site and reviewed the article. Her unkempt appearance, disinterest, depression, constant drinking and urination...and finally lying down constantly, made me push for a test. Cushings was confirmed and we started on 1mg pergolide. Our first response to the medication was a little more spark and interest in her. She shed out well the first spring, but not completely. I clipped the remaining hair. Going into last winter, her appetite waned, and she slowed down again. Meds were increased to 1.5mg. She wasn't THAT good, though. We had begun ordering her medication from VETERINARY PHARMACIES OF AMERICA. They DO compound their own medications, but when I questioned them, they said that they used human grade pergolide. They supply it in a soft chew flavored with alfalfa or apple. It costs much less that the human caplets, PERMAX. We switched back to the caplets ( human )when she started sliding back - no difference. She stopped eating at the end of last winter, so I ordered from VETERINARY PHARMACIES again - but this time in 2mg alfalfa chews on a hunch that she wasn't getting enough medication in her when it was in her feed ( that she wouldn't finish ). I mixed it in baby applesauce and syringed it in her. It worked. This year, no clipping, her coat is glossy and dappled. Excessive drinking has ceased, and her old upbeat personality is back.
I guess you just have to watch and manage Cushings according to what suits your horse. My mare gets KWIK - peletted whole feed ( about a cup AM and PM), Farrier's Formula ( 1/2c AM and PM ), just about free fed hay ( grass ) and a couple hours pasture daily ( not lush ). Right now, we're doing well, but I'm ready to switch direction at a moment's notice.
OH! The VET PHARMACY's 2 mg. pergolide, is still less than 1/2 the cost of 1 mg. human caplets. Right now, it's working, so....whatever floats her boat. If it stops, I guess it's back to the human stuff again. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16238
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 7:14 am: | |
Cheryl the 2 symptoms I am usually treating with pergolide is the depression and/or founder. Everything else can usually be managed. I do expect remarkable improvement in either of these 2 within 3 weeks at the starting dose or 2 times the starting dose in the article. Of course one person's remarkable might be another person's not so remarkable but I often get the comment that goes something like "she acts like she is 10 again".
Unfortunately you do not list the concentration of your capsules so you should consider these possibilities, but if you are not seeing a horse that acts remarkably brighter you should consider:
1) Some other cause of the depression
2) Too low a dose
3) Ineffective medication
I bring up the last because in an attempt to save on costs folks buy short dated or compounded products and sometimes these have decreased potency when compared with fresh Permax.
DrO |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 116
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 12:28 pm: | |
OK - will try to get all this answered
1 - Lady is skinny, rather than fat. She has a hay belly, which I was told by an equine nutritionist, is caused by gas(???) Her ribs show plainly, she has a really thin neck and slight hollows on her rump.
2 - She has never foundered. She has had three abscess's - or anyway I think the latest episode was an abscess. I just had a message on here about that. Could not find where the abscess broke - both the Vet and farrier (who was here this morning) could find no evidence of an abscess.
3 - She does not have really long hair - it's almost like an undercoat that didn't shed. She had a really long thick winter coat(not wavy), which didn't surprise me given the winters in ND. She did shed a buckets of hair - but not the medium length fuzzy stuff she still has.
4- She has always stuck to the other horses like glue. This summer there have been several times I've seen her at the other end of the pasture just standing with her head hanging, not the least interested in where the other horses were.
5- I just had fecal counts done on all three horses - all negative. The pasture is cleaned every day and they have been on a yearly rotation of invermectin - quest - double dose of strongid - and the complete invermectin for tapes once a year.
6 - The label on the caps states it is Pergolide Mesylate 1MG. and that it was compounded in the lab per perscriber. There is no expiration date on the label which surprises me.
7 - She has perked up some, is eating well - but has not shed any at all. She started the meds on 6-6 at 1 mg per day - and was increased to 1.5 mg per day on 7-5. She is currently separated from the other horses because they are on a strict diet and where she is she has access to some grass along with the free choice grass/alfalfa hay.
I guess my question is, should I be concerned about the lack of response and talk with my Vet about increasing the daily dosage again?
Thanks, Cheryl |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 117
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 12:30 pm: | |
YIKES - I forgot to thank all of you for your responses. They are really appreciated. Cheryl |
Shirley A. Johnson
Member
Username: Shirl
Post Number: 389
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 12:48 pm: | |
Cheryl,
I know it's frustrating, but re-read JoJos post above. Your horse should be on a strict diet, no grass, Bermuda hay (some horses can't tolerate alfalfa), etc.
Try changing her diet a bit. Get her a grazing muzzle you can tape mostly shut, etc.
Good luck,
Shirl |
jojo
Member
Username: Jojo15
Post Number: 773
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 1:48 pm: | |
grass belly caused by gas? thats funny.. could be true though. But most likely caused by loss of topline, and muscle wastage. nutritional deficiencies, or wormy...
Have you tested this horse? run a full blood panel to rule out other things? when reading your post each listing to me, said worms, but then you added how the fecal was negative.
The abscesses mean something is changing in her hoof form. laminitis episodes can happen without you ever knowing it. Especially if its a stoic horse. and they can blow out in areas you aren't quite sure that is what it is... on the heel bulb. or coronet.
Have the teeth been checked by a vet that specializes in teeth? mouth sores? could be something serious going on there...2 teeth pulled? hmm. i have a 26 year old never had to pull anything. knock wood..
and now that i read your post again, smelly urine is not normal... kidneys, liver? Does anyone know if giving pergolide creates a smelly urine? What color? thick?
I'm wondering, since shedding out is the #1 thing you mentioned to the vet, then skinny, then depressed, maybe he just said aha, cushings... and didn't go much further in his diagnoses... and adding the smelly urine, loss of topline, abscesses, pulled teeth, dull coat, etc.. it could very well be cushings but, other management changes haven't been made to help him..
and truly if this horse has cushings, take her off grass and stop feeding alfalfa unless you soak out the NSC's and stop feeding any adult feeds, complete or with sweet feeds, etc.... its only counteracting the pergolide. Start finding low carb feed alternatives, beet pulp, grass hays, minerals, etc... there is only so much the pill can do if the body is still fighting all the crap making her sick... it's like giving chocolate cake to a diabetic...
Try upping the dose and make the feed changes. and see what happens, in 10 days to 2 weeks... if she doesn't turn around then pull blood. cause it could be something else.... |
Lee
Member
Username: Paul303
Post Number: 694
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 2:03 am: | |
The vets were looking for weight loss as a symptom in my mare. I knew something was wrong...but she looked GOOD....for 24. Her head hung low, no spark in her eyes, excessive drinking, lying down a LOT, and, loss of tone on her topline. It was my farrier who caused the light to go on: "THIS FOOT IS HOT", he said. I'd thought it was hot, but everyone said I was imagining things. Well, I got the vet in to x-ray the front feet. She did the ACTH test at that time because of the foot problem. That test is not that reliable but the Dex was not considered safe when we were teetering at the edge of a possible founder. She DID have small nebulous pus pockets in her frogs, but boy, we hit her with every treatment we could and they cleared right up. The ACTH was high, although her glucose levels were normal, so we started the Permax ( pergolide ). Like Dr.O said, it took about 3 wks. What did I see? Well, she was.....brighter. We've had our ups and downs since, and she is now on 2mg. as I said....but that IS with the compounder....but this is the medication I can get IN her. On the human caplets, she kept going off her feed. Sometimes, like when your horse loses interest in all food for 3 weeks you'll throw all diets out the window and feed COTTON CANDY, if she'll eat it ( I foaled this gal in 1980 ). Luckily, pasture always gets her started, so far, anyway.
Keep trying things, your horse doesn't sound insulin resistant to me. I'd give the pergolide a good long test run keeping in mind that an increase is a possibility. Definitive tests will give you more confidence.
The most important thing to remember is: talk to your vet. Your vet needs your feedback in order to make proper decisions. Don't wait for your vet to ask the "right" question, just lay out all the things you have observed and the vet will know how to sift through. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16251
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 6:16 am: | |
Hay / grass bellies are due to relaxation of the abdominal musculature to accommodate the large bowel which becomes bigger in diameter in response to increase roughage processing. I guess some of that is gas but mostly more fiber.
You do say the horse is brighter but not shed yet. Sometimes that is what you get. You could try a higher dose but I would also consider a different product next time. After several disappointing attempts with generics, I use to suggest to clients that they begin with the Permax then once we get a response experiment with the generics.
DrO |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 8:39 am: | |
I don't think Lady is insulin deficient. She has always been a really hard keeper, even on lush pasture. I think the abscess's were from stone bruising. Two popped out at the coronet band - have no idea what happened with the latest one.
Dr. O your explanation of the cause of a hay belly makes a whole lot more sense - glad that's cleared up.(g)
Dr. Brown's practice is limited to horses and mules, he does complete dental work and spent a lot of time working on Lady's mouth. I'm sure the loose teeth were painful because once they were out she started eating really well. I will talk to him about getting Permax next time to see if it makes any difference. What with the pain from her teeth, then the abscess, maybe she was just dealing with too much pain to be interested in anything. At any rate she is now showing interest in things going on around her, so hopefully a combination of everything is going to help her. We are in the middle of 100 degree days so that is added on top of everything else.
Thanks everyone for your input.
Cheryl |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 119
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 17, 2006 - 10:10 am: | |
I just received this message this morning. I hope it's OK to post it here - seems to be very helpful:
I have really enjoyed reading the string of posts from late July on Equine
Cushings and I apologize that I am coming into the discussion (very) late.
I just found this sight today.
My understanding is that most, but not all, Cushing's horses are Insulin
Resistent(IR). Folks that suspect Cushing's should get a definitive
diagnosis via an ACTH Stimulation test. Pergolide is not a drug to be given
when (or your vet) suspects that your horse may have Cushings. Like all
drugs, Pergolide has side-effects, including hallucinations,
gastrointestinal problems, and sleep disorders.
Insultin Resistance is managed with diet. I don't know too much about this
topic (I own a veterinary pharmacy in Denver, Colorado so I know about
Pergolide but not IR diet). The Equine Cushing's group on Yahoo was more
than 4,000 members and is an excellent source for information on Cushing's
and IR.
Dr. O makes a great point about "ineffective pergolide." Many compounding
pharmacies encourage their clients to get the suspension and claim it has a
beyond-use-date of 3-6 months. In reality, the USP (United States
Pharmacopeia) mandates 14 day dating for the suspension. You are ALWAYS
better off using the tablet or capsule rather than the suspension because
pergolide is very unstable in water. If you have to use the suspension,
request a copy of a third party stability study that documents the
beyond-use-dating they use for their product (if any pharmacy can actually
provide that I will be surprised).
I can't stress enough the excellent advice and support you will get on the
Equine Cushing's List (Yahoo). Here's the link
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/
Ian Hudgings
Vet Pet Solutions
(303) 320-6034
ian@vetpetsolutions.com
The prices for their pergolide:
Now for the Pergolide Capsule pricing.
0.25 mg- $0.40 each
0.50 mg- $0.46 each
0.75 mg- $0.48 each
1.00 mg- $0.50 each
1.25 mg- $0.55 each
1.50 mg- $0.60 each
1.75 mg- $0.65 each
2.00 mg- $0.70 each
Orders of $40 or more qualify for free shipping. Shipping is $4.00 for
orders less than $40.
Ian Hudgings
Vet Pet Solutions
(303) 320-6034
ian@vetpetsolutions.com |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16417
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 6:38 am: | |
I agree Cheryl, this is a very helpful post with the only critique I have being that the ACTH testing is prone to both false negatives and false positives as do most lab tests for this disease. The dex suppression test still remains the most accurate test in experimental surveys but you must use caution with this test. The article discuses more on this and the diagnosis of this disease. In my mind clinical signs followed by clinical response remain the gold standard with lab results having a supportive role.
DrO |
jojo
Member
Username: Jojo15
Post Number: 815
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 9:24 am: | |
Very true about the ACTH test. I have had two so far. one said positive to cushings and one said negative. I haven't taken a third test. Time of day, time of year, how long since eating, active, etc, and of course the doctor taking it all are variables. and it funny each test was taken by a different doctor, firm, lab, and results... |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 176
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 - 3:11 pm: | |
This is a picture of a lump that just showed up on Lady. Didn't know where else to post it. The lump is about 5-6 inches long. It is firm, not hard and there is swelling running down the veins going towards her udder. It does not appear to be painful. Any clues??? Is it something I need to have the Vet out for?
Thanks, Cheryl |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 177
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 - 3:15 pm: | |
This is a picture taken looking up at the lump. |
KATHLEEN WHEAT
Member
Username: Kathleen
Post Number: 452
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 - 7:02 pm: | |
Is this the same location? Looks like yours is farther back. This came up on Mona's belly and was gone in a few days.
Kathleen |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 178
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 - 7:49 pm: | |
Kathleen Woo - thank you so much ! ! ! It looks like it is in pretty much the same location - just past midline towards the rear- Did you ever find out what it was? If it went away on it's own - maybe I can stop being paranoid? 
Cheryl |
KATHLEEN WHEAT
Member
Username: Kathleen
Post Number: 455
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 23, 2006 - 8:06 pm: | |
I don't know what it was, but it went away on it's own. I know when I scratched it, she liked it, so it may have been an allergic reaction to something. I started putting Swat on it in case it was flys, I think that's all I did. But it was not a problem.
Kathleen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16918
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 - 5:56 am: | |
Both Kathleen's and Cherl's picture are of ventral edema, which means fluid (serum) accumulating under the skin on the belly. There can be many causes to such an event that range from mild trauma like a bad insect bite all the way up to heart failure. For more on exactly what edema see Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses. If this persists more than a few days, is progressively worse, or associated with other clinical signs you should talk to your veterinarian about this.
DrO |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 179
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 - 8:45 am: | |
Thank you Dr. O. I read through the article on Swellings on horses - on your chart showing the different locations - Lady's swelling is right between the two areas you have marked on the belly. I tried to find an article on congestive heart failure and couldn't find anything pertaining to this. One of my cats died of congestive heart failure. Her entire abdomen was distended and tight. She was also having a difficult time breathing. Would this be the same in horses?
Cheryl |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16928
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 - 11:23 am: | |
The post was meant to give you an idea of the range of possibilities Cheryl and not to suggest your horse has congestive heart failure. Ventral edema is a very common symptom and it is too early to contemplate an actual diagnosis. Unless your horse has continued to feel depressed as in your posts of last summer I would not worry to much about it. But if it continues, worsens, or if there are still symptoms of depression or poor doing you should consult with your veterinarian about a possible exam with an eye to figuring out if this swelling is related to the other symptoms.
DrO |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 180
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 8:15 am: | |
Not to fear - Dr. O - I'm hoping it is just something that will dissipate on it's own - wanted to know what I should be watching for if it doesn't. The problem is that she is not doing well. She is on straight grass hay and straight soaked beet pulp with her supplements and pergolide. She has lost more weight - I taped her on 7/19 at 1000 pounds - she is now down to 888. When Dr. Brown checked her on 10/17 he said she was having intermittent bouts of founder. Her pergolide has been increased to to caps per day which would be 2 mg (?) with no change. Dr. B also trimmed her toes back even more but it hasn't helped. About two weeks ago her water consumption went from just around 3-5 gals a day to close to 16. She is staying in her stall except to come out to drink and she is eating almost non-stop. She is getting 8 scoops of Super 14 and 2 scoops of Accel in two feedings - about 2 cups of soaked BP pellets. I also just put her on bute 1 g twice a day - no results yet. She does not appear depressed - nickers for her feed - actually stands there drooling while I feed the other two horses. She has an absolutely huge belly but she is just boney. She is chewing the hay with no problem - no cuds at all. I really don't know what else to do for her. |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 1551
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 8:51 am: | |
Cheryl.
Does she get any extra calories in oil or fat supplements? Also, I understand that large amounts of oil can wreak havoc with gut flora, especially in older horses whose guts may be slowing down due to age, anyway, so you could try some plain yogurt mixed with her beet pulp in addition to a 1/2 cup of oil (that you can gradually increase up to a cup to a cup and a half in the a.m. and p.m. feedings.
There is a good possibility that there is something else going on internally (would blood testing help?) that is keeping her from absorbing nutrients.
I've been there, Cheryl, and it's really hard to watch them loose weight when you are doing everything you can to make sure that they have what they need. |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 181
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 10:05 am: | |
Holly - thanks - She just gets the Super 14 - which is really high fat content but nothing like oil. Mostly - I want to do something about the founder - she is in so much pain. I had her on styrofoam pads for awhile but they didn't seem to help at all. Right now she is eating at least three to four times more than the other two. It doesn't matter how much hay I leave out for her at night - there is nothing there in the morning. With all her problems I'm worried about the bute - but I gotta do something. And she just seems so happy (sigh)
Dr. O - what is your opinion on the oil?
Thanks, Cheryl |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16942
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 6:39 am: | |
I do not know of any work that suggests that high fat (which is the same thing as oil) diets can harm gut flora as long as there is adequate forage.
Carefully reviewing the information above the problem here is we seem to be operating in the dark, too many problems too little information and following up on Holly's suggestions: Cheryl the vet was out a week ago did he run a CBD and chemistries and how did he say the heart sounded? Also when was the last set of radiographs done and what were the findings? Even better is to post the radiorgraphs for us to review.
DrO |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 1555
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 9:28 am: | |
I apologize if my commment about oil causing a change in the gut bacteria is incorrect. I didn't question it, though I haven't seen any studies and was repeating what an equine nutritionist told me.  |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 184
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 9:36 am: | |
Dr. B has never done any testing on Lady. There have been no x-rays. When she is turned she squats on her hind feet to make the turn. Dr. B could find no heat in her feet - nor a high pulse. He indicated her heart was fine. She did not have the lump when he was here. She was started on the Super 14 on 8/21 - with-in two weeks she had started shedding out big time. She is just now starting to grow a winter coat and it is much lighter than it has ever been. She was on the pergolide June-August with no change. She was just started back on the pergolide on 10/21.
A change this morning - her stall is always a mess with soaked bedding - this morning there were no wet spots. This is a first since she has had access to the stall in early July.
Dr. Brown is trying to avoid doing expensive testing. He's sure she has Cushings and her stance when she is turned totally convinced him she has foundered. If we absolutely must have additional testing done we will find a way but if we can get her through this without it would sure help. Fox as usual - has managed to eat up my horse budget for the next year. |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 185
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 9:53 am: | |
Holly - Dr. O said there was no evidence that oil caused a problem - You didn't say anything wrong - You did good - 
Cheryl |
KATHLEEN WHEAT
Member
Username: Kathleen
Post Number: 465
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 10:36 am: | |
I believe Super 14 is high in fat (soy - may be totally wrong about that), and I used it years ago when the horses were boarded and they got really shiny coats. Don't have a problem with shiny coats now that I am taking care of them at home, but wondered about giving the Super 14 to my cushing (PID) mare? I body clipped her in July/August and she is already wooly and wavy haired. DrO, what do you think of the benefit of adding this supplement? Her coat is shiny and healthy, but if it helped Lady shed her heavy coat, is it worth a try?
Kathleen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16949
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 7:22 pm: | |
The diagnosis of Cushings and founder, both of which are best made from clinical signs, does not rule out findings and complications that may lead to more specific therapy or a earlier realization that the prognosis is poor or it may just rule out these possibilites and suggest it is useful to keep trying and which avenues might be the most fruitful.
Kathleen, I am uncertain the supplement would be an improvement over the high fat food she is feeding already but evaluating the diet a bit closer is a good place to start. Cheryl list each of the foodstuffs your horse is getting and how much (by weight) she get daily. In the case of commercial preparations we need the nutrient profile and ingredients. You may need to get a large kitchen scale and copying and pasting nutritional info from web sites can make this easier. You should also review again the articles on Cushings, Funder, and Weight Loss and see if there are aspects you have overlooked.
DrO |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 188
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 27, 2006 - 2:42 pm: | |
This is the analysis of the Accel
Guaranteed Analysis,minimum:per pound
Lysine 0.60% 2,700 mg
Methionine 0.55% 2,500 mg
Tryptophane 0.27% 1,200 mg
Glycine 0.70% 3,160 mg
Cystine 0.20% 920 mg
Arginine 0.61% 2,780 mg
Histidine 0.21% 960 mg
Leucine 0.25% 1,100 mg
Isoleucine 0.67% 3,020 mg
Phenylalanine 0.59% 2,670 mg
Tyrosine 0.44% 2,000 mg
Threonine 0.54% 2,460 mg
Valine 0.77% 3,480 mg
Aspartic acid 0.17% 750 mg
Calcium, min. 4.01% 18,182 mg
Calcium, max. 4.81% 21,819 mg
Phosphorus 3.03% 13,730 mg
Magnesium 2.05% 9,278 mg
Potassium 1.51% 6,831 mg
Sulfur 6,893 ppm 3,127 mg
Iron 5,688 ppm 2,580 mg
Zinc 1,323 ppm 600 mg
Manganese 1,102 ppm 500 mg
Copper 441 ppm 200 mg
Cobalt 22 ppm 10 mg
Iodine 22 ppm 10 mg
Selenium 9 ppm 4 mg
Vitamin A 100,000 IU
Vitamin D3 20,000 IU
Vitamin E 4,000 IU
Vitamin B12 3 mg
Menadione 4 mg
Riboflavin 100 mg
d-Pantothenic acid 200 mg
Thiamine 224 mg
Niacin 500 mg
Vitamin B6 243 mg
Folic acid 80 mg
Choline 2,866 mg
d-Biotin 8 mg
Ascorbic acid 500 mg
Direct-fed microbials,guaranteed analysis::
Mixed Lactic Acid Bacteria 3.69 x 106 CFU/gm
Saccharomyces cerevisiae 9.92 x 106 CFU/gm
Enzymes,guaranteed analysis:
Amylase activity, min. 0.625 CMC units/lb
Protease activity, min. 60 HUT/lb
Cellulase activity, min. 10 BAU/lb
These are the ingredients:
Ingredients: alfalfa meal dehydrated, soybean flour, calcium carbonate, monocalcium phosphate, dicalcium
phosphate, potassium chloride, potassium sulfate,magnesium sulfate,magnesium oxide, dl-methionine,
molasses products, dried whey, dried skim milk, vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E
supplement, menadione dimethylpyrinidinol bisulfite, ascorbic acid,Vitamin B12 supplement, biotin, calcium
pantothenate, choline chloride, folic acid, niacin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement,
thiamin mononitrate, cobalt proteinate, copper proteinate, ethylenediamine dihydriodide, Saccharomyces
cerevisiae, iron proteinate,manganese proteinate, sodium selenite, zinc proteinate, dried fermentation extracts
of:Aspergillus niger,Trichoderma longibrachiatum, Bacillus subtilis, dried fermentation products: Enterococcus
faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus fermentum, Bifidobacterium longum, Lactobacillus casei,
Lactobacillus plantarum, Pediococcus acidilacticii, natural and artificial flavors,mineral oil. Contains a source of:
Amylase, which can hydrolyze starch; protease, which can hydrolyze proteins; and cellulase,which can break
down cellulose. |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 189
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 27, 2006 - 2:48 pm: | |
There is an error on the Super 14 page so I couldn't go to the label information - however this is the ingredients:
Contains protein, methionine, vegetable fat, fiber, ash, selenium, vitamins A, E and B-6 in the guaranteed analysis
Contains polyunsaturated fatty acids plus vitamin E and vitamin B-6 to leave skin healthy, coats sleek and glossy |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 190
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 27, 2006 - 3:06 pm: | |
Ok - will try - She is getting two ounces of the Accel - 1 each meal - 8 tablespoons of Super 14 -4 each meal - 1 3/4 cups of beet pulp - plain no molasses - soaked - at each meal. She also get all the grass hay she can eat. It's basically in front of her 24 hr a day. She also gets a 1 mg (I think it's mg) of pergolide in the AM. Right now she is not getting any grain at all. And I don't think she would eat any more beet pulp.
I have read through the articles at least three times and manage to confuse myself even more with each reading. The styrofoam pads didn't seem to help her so this morning I cut some pads out of carpet padding and put three thickness's of them on her - works out to about 1 inch of padding -- left the toe from the apex of the frog forward uncovered. That seems to have helped some - When I went out I tried to pick up the RF first - she refused so I put the pads on the RL - she then allowed me to pick up the RF with no resistance and did not try to take it away.
I hope all of this is what you want - it sure is a lot to read through. I really appreciate all your help - I know it is very time consuming.
Cheryl |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16962
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 27, 2006 - 6:32 pm: | |
What would you estimate she eats in hay a day? What kind of hay is it and lastly what about a trace mineral salt block? Though you give the tape weight above but what would you judge her condition using the Horse Care » Equine Management & Routine Procedures » Weight, Condition, and Eventual Height Estimation. The first change I would like to see is to add a 1/2 cup of bran to each feeding of beet pulp to balance the Ca/phos and increase the protein further. To this I would add 4 oz of vegetable oil as a start to the weight loss issue if her condition is less than a 5.
That said there is nothing in the diet likely to be exacerbating the founder. Cheryl besides the nutritional questions above what is her exercise regiment like? What does the veterinarian say about the conditions of the soles and likely rotational status?
DrO |
Cheryl Kallenbach
Member
Username: Cheryl
Post Number: 191
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 28, 2006 - 10:46 am: | |
Dr. O - I guess I would give her a 3 - Her ribs are plainly visable but I can feel fat between them - all her vertebra can be felt - some fat over the center section. There is about a one inch dip between the tips of her pelvis bones however her hip bones are covered and she still has decent flesh on the insides of her hind legs.
I have no idea what kind of grass the hay is - It's round baled - several different grass types -- brome I think - and the rest I have no idea. She actually prefers it to the alfalfa/grass we have that we can't feed. It's decent hay - but that's about it - I really can't say how much she eating - I always pull off at least 20 pounds for her - she goes through that and then gets into the bale itself - she picks through it eating what she likes and destroying the rest. I would guess she is probably eating about 30 pounds a day. I clean up close to 20 piles of manure per day.
Her exercise is non-existent. If I take Fox out of the pen to work her - Lady will go outside and graze. She will not willingly go out by herself because she can no longer see Fox - which is an absolute necessity. All four ankles are stocked up - I'm assuming from lack of exercise. She stays in the barn except to go right outside the door to drink water.
Since starting the pergolide again on 10/21 - her water consumption has been cut from 16 gals per day to around 8.
The bute doesn't seem to be helping her at all - the pads I put on helped a little but she is still horribly sore on her front feet. The Vet did not say anything about rotation or the condition of her sole - just that her toes were to long - he removed about 3/4 of an inch but was afraid to take off any more -
I guess I should have been more assertive about stopping her pain - maybe he was hesitant because of the added cost. He didn't suggest any treatment other than getting her back on the pergolide.
Do you have a preference on the kind of bran - | |
