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Liliana Velasco Ariza
Member
Username: Liliana
Post Number: 270
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 3:03 pm: |   |
Dear Dr. O and all
Yesterday when I went to feed the horses in the afternoon, Chaka (18 yo aprox. mare mother Lemba 41/2 yo and Champal 13 months old and still suckling ) was happily eating when suddenly she stomped her back leg pretty hard, and when I turned, she had her left hind leg up in the air as if she had cramp in obvious severe pain, her gums and tong went white, she would not put any weight on it, she was turning her lip upwards as in Fleming. She stopped eating. After about 10 min she kind of picked at her feed, she walked on three legs to her hay rolled once, stayed down for about a minute and then stood up and started picking at her hay, very odd. I have never ever seen anything like it. I gave her Butafenil (fenilbutazpna & sodium salicilate non steroid) which is used here for all ailments here! She seems to be better this morning although she is still lame. I will go and see her this afternoon and report again, but please any ideas. I am so confused I felt so useless and impotent not knowing what it could be and as you know Vets are not a commodity here in Cozumel!
Many thanks
Liliana |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann
Post Number: 309
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 5:36 pm: | |
White tongue and gums could indicate a very serious problem, and the need for an immediate Veterinary examination. I don't know how poisonous the scorpions are down there, but a bite from one where I live would be unlikely to have that reaction. I sincerely hope this horse is still alive when you next see it. |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann
Post Number: 310
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 5:52 pm: | |
Dr. O needs to answer this one Liliana -- sorry I just reread your post and saw she was better the next morning, though lame. The white tongue and gums is a pretty profound symptom. Is there any area of heat or swelling? When I've been bitten by a scorpion there has been heat at the bite site and some swelling in the area of the bite. The pain is pretty intense after the bite. Are there black widow spiders there? They are often close to ground and sometimes hang out in hay that is on the ground. Their bite is extremely painful for several hours, but I don't know whether there would be lameness seen the next day. Are there any poisonous snakes? I don't know much about what kind of creatures live in your area that could bite a horse. And no Vets -- wow -- that means you really need some advice here and some help from the most knowledgeable person known for horse health information down there. |
Stacy Upshaw
Member
Username: 36541
Post Number: 151
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 7:58 pm: | |
Interesting that black widows would come up - I've had three folks in the ER in the last two weeks with envenomations, and they actually brought the spiders! The bite itself is not really painful and often goes unnoticed. Within 1-6 hrs the pain begins, radiating from the bite initially but can also produce severe muscle cramping, especially in the abdomen. The bites are rarely fatal for humans, only in the very young or elderly, so I wouldn't think it could affect a horse as Liliana describes, especially given the acuity.
The widows are actively nesting right now, and it is an important to note they are not always black. Sometimes the abdomen will be brown, or legs and/or abdomen will be brown banded. The ventral hourglass is red, orange or yellow, and there will sometimes be dorsal dots in the same color. Take a look around your barns(carefully) and I wager you'll see some. |
jojo
Member
Username: Jojo15
Post Number: 788
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 8:28 pm: | |
could've been a snake then. NOW their bites are immediately painful... |
Liliana Velasco Ariza
Member
Username: Liliana
Post Number: 271
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 8:52 pm: | |
Vicky, I could not feel any heat in any part of her tummy inside leg or anywhere, there was a bit of swelling in the fetlock area.
Stacy I hadn’t thought about black widows as they are not native here but, the hay I am buying comes from Veracruz a town in the golf of Mexico were there may have black widows; it is interesting because this happened at the moment that they were wetting the hay for the horses! I have not seen any as yet. I went this afternoon and she seems to be better, but still lame when she walks she stretches the leg like a German soldier but she is putting weight on it, she was eating her hay normally but every so often she snatches it up like if she wanted to kick out, really weird, she is Alfa and temper wise she is normal admittedly her belly seems tight.
Thank you very much for the info, a real eye opener, as I said here in Cozumel there are no venomous animal, we only have Boas but the only get about tow meters long if that, and black scorpions and tarantulas with a painful bite but their venom is only deadly in a mouse or bird. But they could well be in the hay!
Thanks again and I hope Dr. O gives an opinion please
Liliana |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: Vickiann
Post Number: 311
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 9:54 pm: | |
Stacy -- I got bit
.+ on the hand by a brown widow. The initial bite was much less than an ant bite -- almost imperceptible, more like that from a wolf spider. But then a while later when I put my arm downward and rested weight on that hand where the bite was, the pain became unbearable. It wasn't the pain on the hand as much as that the entire arm felt, for several hours as though it was in a vise that was being tightened down as much as possible. I was traveling that day on two different airplanes and nearly got off and went to the hospital instead of getting on the second plane. People must have wondered what was wrong with me because I know the suffering must have showed. I did have some fairly mild abdominal and other muscle discomfort, but the arm and hand pain was very bad. After about 7 hours it subsided. The bite itself was a classic widow bite with white blanched center and raw-meat appearance around it, but evidence of the bite disappeared rapidly after the arm and hand pain quit. The black and brown widow spiders are pretty shy and like to hang under rims of buckets and water tanks. If you put your hand onto one is when they will bite. I changed my water tank to one without an overhanging lip because of this. They also like to hang out in loose hay on the floor. This year they are much worse than ever before and are being seen on farms all over our area. I've always had them on my farm. The pain of a scorpion bite is intense after and for an hour or so, plus heat lasting for a couple of days, but not unrelenting as long as the bite from the widow, which in my case was muscle pain, as you said. In Florida there is one other bad biter and that is the "Velvet Ant," which is not an ant at all but a member of the wasp family. They are red, get quite large and look like a giant ant. They are also called the "Cow Killer" because the bite is described as being bad enough to "kill a cow." I have read of a horse, maybe on HA, that died after a bite by one of those, because the bite resulted in an infection on the horse's neck. There are also some caterpillars that can put people in the hospital with their bite. Probably the worst is the "puss mouth" caterpillar. They are off white or gray depending upon their age and come out of the trees. I know a big, strong weight lifter that lost two days off work after being stung by a Puss Mouth. A section of their back has hairs that each carry a strong poison. They can cause swelling of the lymph glands, sore throats, and headaches. The Saddle Back and Eeo (spelling?) Caterpillars are quite unpleasant as well. Nature is fascinating, but not so fun when you get bitten by such things. Hope your horse is fine soon, Liliana. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16303
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 9:02 am: | |
Lilianna,
I found this information in the Merck manual: The stings of North American scorpions are rarely serious and usually result in pain, minimal swelling, tenderness, and warmth at the sting site. However, the bark scorpion (Centruroides exilicauda or sculpturatus), which is found in Arizona and New Mexico and on the California side of the Colorado River, has a much more toxic sting. The sting is painful, sometimes causing numbness or tingling in the area around the sting. Serious symptoms are more common in children and include abnormal head, eye, and neck movements; increased saliva production; sweating; and restlessness. Some people develop severe involuntary twitching and jerking of muscles. Breathing difficulties may occur.
The stings of most North American scorpions require no special treatment. Placing an ice cube on the wound reduces pain, as does an ointment containing a combination of an antihistamine, an analgesic, and a corticosteroid. Centruroides stings that result in serious symptoms may require the use of sedatives, such as midazolam given intravenously. Centruroides antivenom rapidly relieves symptoms, but it may cause a serious allergic reaction or serum sickness. The antivenom is available only in Arizona.
But if you did not see the scorpion nor find a focal area of inflammation on the leg you should look for other causes.
DrO |
Liliana Velasco Ariza
Member
Username: Liliana
Post Number: 272
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 6:50 pm: | |
Thank you Dr.O very interesting report! Well here with the update. I guess the only indication of a possible scorpion, or spider would be that on the opposite leg there was a string of blood dripping down her leg which would point out at a sting or bite.
Not to stand still I took my small animal vet to see Chaka and he listened to the belly and the lungs, and an over all check up and she is fine, gums are pink, tong is pink, however when he manipulated the fetlock area, it kind of cracks, so he says that somehow she twisted a tendon! In my personal experience a frinking tendon hurts far more than a broken bone! So he injected another 10ml of Butafenil and later on I am to rub some Domoso (methylsulfinylmethane).
I cannot put her in a stable as she has her colt at foot, and it would be more stressing for her not to be near him! as the stables are some 300mt from the where the horses are kept 24/7.
I know at 14 months old he should not be mummies baby but me likes to keep them as natural as they choose...
Many thanks to all and we'll just have to see what happens fingers crossed!
But, I'll keep an eye on creepy crawlies, as I spotted a yellow and black striped tarantula no long ago, and also a tiny little bright green and yellow snake! You know if I’ve seen a black widow I wouldn’t have known she was a meany spider
Liliana |
