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Discussion on Cushings and Nutrition
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Elizabeth B, Dubenitz (Derry)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2000 - 11:56 pm: |   |
Does anyone have any pertinent information about nutrition and the Cushing's horse? I've been giving my 23 year old mare Purina's Equine Senior for years but it just doesn't seem (to me) to be enough to help her fight the ravages of Cushing's. She has chronic laminitis, is basically stall bound, has a cresty neck, gets no exercise and is slowly losing weight. The weather is getting colder and I'm concerned about her stamina to get through the winter.
Read somewhere that a cup of corn oil a day is good. Any other thoughts? |
Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 1:31 am: | |
Just lost a 38 yr. old gelding last spring. Not to Cushings, but lipomas that strangulated the intestines. However, the necropsy report ( we had a very thorough one done since we owned him for thirty years and had much curiosity about his general good health )showed some pituitary changes and a possibility of Cushings beginning. He suffered occasional bouts of anorexia or total disinterest in food. He continued to "suck" on hay, but for the last four years of his life he had no molars. There were occasional seasons of shedding problems also, but these seemed to coincide with the times of poor nutrition. He enjoyed Purina Senior for a few years, then refused it. We then proceeded to exhaust the total "senior" route. What solved the problem for us was Focus WT ( though I don't know if a frank Cushing's horse should have that ), about 1/2 scoop pelleted feed and sweet feed mixed, a scoop of Kwick ( pelleted hay ), and 1/4 cup corn oil. This was his twice daily feed, and we drenched it with about 3 cups of water which produced a mush that he loved. I must add here that we also began riding him again. We thought we were doing him a favor by retiring him, but apparently we weren't. He came back wonderfully, and shared three more years of fun before he died. |
Susan Frederick (Founder)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 2:32 am: | |
Derry,
We would strongly advise dropping the supplement. These horses do not handle concentrated carbohydrates well. Read the label on your bag. Fat%+Protein%+Carbohydrate% = 100%. I think you'll find your feed is at least 80% carbohydrates.
THINNER is better for these horses. Feed hay ONLY, no concentrated carbohydrates (grain) and use blankets for the cold. If you are concerned about her weight, you can use a little rice bran (mostly fat) or corn oil. I'm sure Dr O must have something about this in his archives. Also, ask your vet about using medication for her Cushings. These horse respond VERY well to Permax (pergolide mesylate) and diet control. Good Luck!
Susan and Matt Frederick |
Elizabeth B. Dubenitz (Derry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 9:27 am: | |
I thought that if you blanketed a horse with a winter coat, that the blanket caused the coat hairs to lay flat, thus negating nature's purpose for a winter coat. I always blanketed her when she was clipped, but she hasn't been clipped in years. I have a number of nice stall blankets but not quite sure about using them...
Permax doesn't always work. I've got it but have not given it to mare. I'm trying a natural product called Hormonise. It does seem to be working. Our biggest management problem is laminitis.
Regarding feed. I can see the reasons to drop Equine Senior. I've wondered whether it was fueling the laminitis. I'd like to give her something to nibble on (other than hay) just to break up her day. I'm looking for LOW carbs, right? Other feed suggestions? Will start her on corn oil TODAY. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 10:11 am: | |
Hello Everyone,
Susan, you need to revise your thoughts. Being a farrier you see those withe founder as a complication but the majority of these horses do not suffer from founder. To leave concentrates out of these horses diets may complicate management, exacerbate the weight loss, and result in nutritional imbalances. For those with founder it needs to be reduced as much as is practical.
Elizabeth, I have redone the links in the article on Cushings to better direct you to pertinent information on managing the Cushinoid Horse. Review the article, study the links, and you will be up on managing these cases.
DrO |
Susan Frederick (Founder)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 2:17 pm: | |
Dr. O,
We always find your posts thought provoking. We enjoy the free exchange of information and ideas on your board. However, we stand by our comments about the senior feeds. Derry's horse has chronic laminitis that is not responding to treatment/management. That is the only reason we answered her post. We manage 44 (at this count) Cushingoid/laminitic cases. They (the LAMINITIC Cushingoid cases) cannot handle the concentrated carbohydrates. Particularly the senior type feeds. We have found that they WILL worsen the Cushing's symptoms including the laminitis. It would be interesting to check their bloodwork (including glucose and insulin) on/off the senior feed.
To Derry,
Where did you read that Permax doesn't work? 22 of our 44 cases are on the drug. (20 had their laminitis resolve, two have been on the drug only 2 weeks so we can't include them). It's great that you like the hormonise and think it's helping, but if the laminitis has NOT resolved, then in our opinion, it is NOT working. Try the Permax that your vet recommended. We have found that people who say that the drug does not work 1) did not use a high enough dose and/or 2) did not use it long enough and/or 3) did not use concomitant diet control. Good luck with your horse!
Susan and Matthew Frederick |
Elizabeth B. Dubenitz (Derry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 3:29 pm: | |
Dr. O,
Yes, death does come to us all. That doesn't mean we give up without a fight or that we ever quit learning or empowering ourselves. To everyone regarding Permax: All I am trying to say is that it doesn't always turn things around. It really is the only affordable, alliopathic treatment for Cushing's available and it sounds like it has helped a number of horses. I don't think it's a bad thing to explore alternatives, however.
I am slightly confused as to the consensus about what to feed my mare besides good hay. She is able to graze some each day before she gets tired and lays down. I'd like to give her something in her bucket twice a day, if for nothing more than to give her something to look forward to. It would be nice to have something to poor the corn oil over too! We've stopped apples but still give her several carrots a day.
So, carbohydrates yes/no? Protein? Fat? Other ideas? I'm willing to make about anything to make her happy. She's been on Equine Senior for years, but something is telling me that I should take her off it and try something else.
This is a wonderful web site. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 5:01 pm: | |
Susan as long as your comments are directed at those suffering from founder I do not disagree that rapidly digestible carbohydrates need to be watched carefully. But your caution about senior feeds (at least in the case of Purina's feed with which I am most familiar) does not seem justified in both a logical sense and in my experience.
I use this product, usually in combination with vegtable oil, at pretty high levels on all geriatrics who have problems maintaining weight, many of which are Cushinoid and have poor dentition. The analysis would indicate that the feed would be preferable to other concentrates if founder is the concern: it is surprisingly low in energy density.
It has a high protein (14%), moderate fat(4%) formulation yet only attains 1.2 Mcal/lb energy level. This is is more comparable to good quality grass hays in total energy (appx 1 Mcal/lb) than grains (appx 1.7 Mcals/lb). It may have less digestible energy from carbohydrates than grass hay since more of this energy is derived from proteins. Of course this is just the logical argument and not proof of the position. It just is my experience this is a good feed for older horses, Cushinoid or not, that have trouble maintaining weight.
Whenever I have a founder of any cause I stop all concentrate until the founder is under control. But following a return to soundness I would not have any qualms at beginning Equine Senior, particularly if overall condition or chewing is a problem.
To get back to Elizabeth's statement/question. For a discussion on my views of alternative medications see, BULLETIN BOARD members only: The Lounge: Kick back and relax.: Alternative Medicine and Epistomology. We have discussed the points you raise here in depth.
Concerning the specific recommendation of what to feed your horse, there is no way we can accurately do that. We cannot examine your horse, his history, and your feedstuffs to make an informed judgement. What The Advisor can do is provide you with facts and then you take them and apply them to your situation.
We do recommend the horse with active founder have the concentrate stopped, including carrots, in all but the most unusual circumstances.
DrO |
Susan Frederick (Founder)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2000 - 11:20 pm: | |
Dr O,
For the sake of discussion.... We are not scientists, but we cannot discount what we see in the field. We have seen a direct correlation in at least 17 cases in the last 3 years (when we first noticed the phenomena). At the time, we didn't know what to make of the observation. We wondered if something in the feed caused founder in horses. It wasn't until later, that it became clear that it was only associated with laminitis in CERTAIN horses (Cushingoid ones!)
Senior type feeds are manufactured by many companies. Although we have seen a certain BRAND name associated with the worsening of/initiation of refoundering in our chronic laminitic Cushingoid cases, we are certain that any similarly blended feed (concentrated carbohydrate based) would have a similar effect. These feeds are EXCELLENT feeds for most horses. (including senior horses). However, we have found the effect we have described in Cushingoid horses. We have many cases when a REFOUNDER episode occurs 2-3 weeks after initiation of the feed (even on Permax, which does seem to afford them SOME relative "diet freedom"). Removal of the feed from the diet, will often result in resolution of the episode. Many of these horses (half of our cases) can have their laminitis "controlled" with continued diet restrictions. For those horses that have been on such a feed for years, and then experience a "new" (perhaps refractory episode), we attribute their new "intolerance" of the feed to a worsening of the underlying condition (e.g., PIA) causing an even higher elevation of endogenous cortisol, worsening insulin resistance, which we believe to be at the root of their laminitis. We are more concerned with the glycemic response of such a feed, rather than it's gross energy potential. In our imperfect understanding of metabolism, the senior feed would have a MUCH higher load of digestible WSC (water soluble carbohydrates) easily digested in the stomach and small intestine which could readily enter the bloodstream as glucose. In contrast, hay would have a comparatively LARGE portion of its carbohydrate content stored as polysaccharides such as cellulose and fructans (for which it is commonly believed, that mammals possess no enzyme systems). Therefore, much of the hay's carbohydrate content, would have to be fermented in the hindgut (by bacteria) whose fermentation products would include more VLF (volatile fatty acids) than glucose.
Thanks for the exchange. We always learn something from this board. It is a great site!
Susan |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2000 - 7:26 am: | |
Excellent Susan, you are probably correct in your assumptions when comparing the digestion of the grain product portions of the senior feed to grass hay: more glucose metabolism associated with the Senior feed.
The point I am making above is that compared to other concentrates and straight grains, this feed has a higher fiber, lower energy density, with more of it derived from sources that are "non-glucose forming". While this is not proof that your observations may be coincidental, I do not see a logical reason this product would be worse than regular grain based concentrates for horses at risk for founder and have already commented that I do not see the problem you have seen personally.
Remember that elevated cortisol is not a consistant part of the pathogenesis of Cushinoid Disease in horses and the reason I do not use the term Cushings. Currently it is thought that hormone released from the pitutary is responsible for the cortisol-like actions in these horses.
DrO |
Sandra Johnson (Asia)
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2000 - 8:19 am: | |
Dear Elizabeth,
As far as the cushings, I too have been trying and useing the hormanise, and am finding very good results, my gelding has been on it for approx.3-4 months with an excellant turn around, and as far as the laminitis, we have not had any problems with that (knock on wood) but several years ago, I had a mare that had foundered pretty badly,and had 3 different vets look at her, and on the third who I still have today, pulled her grain right away, directed special shoeing, stall rest for 3 months and as far as her diet, because believe me pulling her grain with other horses around was very difficult, directed me to put her on plain crimped oats, to keep her happy, (low fat and low protien, I believe she only received one QT per feeding but it kept her happy, Good luck with your horse, I know how it feels.
Sandy |
Elizabeth B, Dubenitz (Derry)
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2000 - 7:40 pm: | |
I'm pleased to see a lively discussion of what to feed the Cushing's horse with chronic laminitus. I've often suspected it could be a factor in this frustrating battle with lameness. I like the crimped oats idea. I firmly believe the horse has to eat something in the am and pm. She's been fed that way for over 23 years. Horses, like people, get used to a routine.
I'm disappointed about no carrots though! This mare lives for carrots. |
Elizabeth B, Dubenitz (Derry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2000 - 4:33 pm: | |
Update and questions about my 23 year old Cushings mare. Food & water: I took her off of Equine Senior and started her on crimped oats and corn oil only. I'd like to switch her to alfalfa pellets and warm water. I think her water consumption is too low. Her manure is too tight and dry. By making a mash I can also increase her water consumption. Does anyone out there have any problem with alfalfa pellets and the laminitic Cushings horse? I will continue to add 60 ml of the product Hormonise (use instead of Permax)[I do see improvement after 4 weeks of use] and 1 cup+ of corn oil. I realize that weight loss is a part of Cushings. She weighs 1000 lbs and I can now see her entire rib cage. She doesn't look awful, but it's hard to fight wanting to fatten her up.
She continues to be lame. She's walking better and laying down less, but she is still quite sore. This has been going on for a very long time. I bought two nylon booties that close with velcro and I'm stuffing them with sheet insulation cut to her hoof size which compresses to the exact shape of her hoof/frog. Used to have to duct tape this stuff on. These velcro boots are wonderful!
What's the best thing I can put in these boots to soften her soles? They are rock hard and I can just barely see a blood line from the founder. It's extremely difficult to lift her feet and treat her the conventional way. In fact, it's impossible for me. I'm just not strong enough. I'm trying to think of things I can spread on those pads before I stuff them in her boots. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2000 - 10:49 am: | |
Hello Elizabeth,
I hit your post first this morning at about 5:45. And not being really happy with the discussion above:
1) the mixed opinions,
2) the change in information we have about horminase,
3) and the fact I have procured two brand new spanking equine internal medicine texts and two new databases on the same subject,
I have just spent the last 6 hours reviewing the literature on Cushinoid horses and handling laminitic ones, here is my conclusion:
We really do not have a handle on the pathogenesis of founder in Cushinoid horses and so any management, including nutritional, is conjectural and based on that of the management of Cushinoid horses, the treatment of routine founder, and the most falliable of all scientific methods: experience.
Though Sarah and I may disagree about Equine Senior being worse than other forms of concentrate, we do agree on one thing that while there is pain, you should discontinue all concentrates. So switching from oats to alfalfa pellets, very very slowly, seems to be an improvement. There is no hard proof of this and just the process of switching will probably set you back some: for a brief period the bowel bacteria will be in flux giving the oppurtunity for and increase in endotoxin formation. I generally prefer to use just grass hay for horses with active laminitis. But, I cannot examine your horse, nor have I been able to observe how the condition has changed over time. To make any firm recommendation would require that experience along with evaluating what else you are feeding beside what you list above.
DrO |
Susan Frederick (Founder)
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2000 - 5:38 pm: | |
Hi Dr O
Never said that Senior feeds were WORSE than any other concentrated carbohydrates.If you read my post again I said that ANY similiar feed (conposed of readily digestable carbohydrates) would be expected to have the same effect. It is simply that many of these Cushinoid horses, being aged, are most commonly supplimented (with concentrated carbohydrates)in the form of a senior feed by the owners.
What did the new databases you received reveal about Cushing's?.
Susan ("Sarah") |
Elizabeth B, Dubenitz (Derry)
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2000 - 7:31 pm: | |
If I've learned anything from this web site, it's that there are a myriad of answers to a myriad of problems in regards to Cushings. For instance, while reviewing other sections of this site I looked into "founder and laminitis." There I found about 10 pages worth of info about "stressed" grass. Hum, never heard that stressed grass caused by overeating or frost, etc. could lead to founder problems. I have NEVER heard that from my vets. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. What's relevant is that the more I've search for answers, the more confused I've become.
I only have one horse and she's a "pet." My goal is to make her life as comfortable as possible. No more, no less. But it's also my desire to make my life easier too. I don't care what I feed her as long as it doesn't make her laminitis worse. Several people have suggested no grain at all. I feel I've got to feed her something more than hay. Perhaps I'm wrong. She's skinny (by my terms) in that her rib cage is showing. Perhaps I should get over it. It's also winter. Temps dip into the low 20's at night. She has a winter coat, is stabled in a barn and her stall is bedded to the max to ease her foot pain. Plus she wears padded booties. I guess she can live without grain?
In regards to Hormonise. It's a path I've started down and I will stick with it until Spring. I can always fall back on Permax, if necessary. She has shown some very obvious improvements in her energy level and her laminitis in approximately 4 weeks.
One other thing that led me to the company that makes Hormonise is another product they sell called NoBute. Common sense told me I did not want to give my mare bute over a long period of time. If she was dying than yes, ease her pain, but there's a good chance she could live a few more years. NoBute actually works, plus it aids the gut instead of tearing it up.
Another friend has suggested feeding my mare natural chasteberries (in Hormonise). What the heck, I'm going to try it. If it works I'll let you know my very unscientific findings.
I hope that you had already had your coffee before you answered my post at 5:45... |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2000 - 9:06 am: | |
Hello All,
If I misunderstood you Susan, my apologies, I value your experienced input here. Concerning the new information, not a dang thing seems new. But then again since we review the new literature daily and I have you keeping me on my toes, I guess a lot of published interpretive works are going to be a bit behind what goes on here.
Concerning the use of bute in older horses. We had a little pony who's chronic founder actually resulted in a permanant defect in the toe of the sole for the last few years of her life. Without bute she was uncomfortable with bute she still loved to baby sit orphans. Her feet progressively worsened till the bute could no longer protect her. But the point of the story is this little 41 year old pony was on continuous bute for the last 4 or 5 years of her life and made a huge difference in the quality of life of this pony. And though the dose rather high it did not result in bute toxicity. Of course you have to balance this with the fact thatjust this week in The Advisor someone had a horse die of what appears to be acute renal failure due to a drug interaction between bute and a sulfa based antibiotic. Drugs must be used carefully and wisely.
Elizabeth, you have a point of view that I have trouble understanding. You avoid what are well established medications with established safety records and are willing to substitute medications of uncertain efficacy and perhaps more important, unknown safety.
I consider bute the foundation on any treatment of ongoing founder. One of the problems that occurs during founder is swelling of tissues that are sandwiched between the hoof wall and coffin bone, that is between a rock and a hard place. The result of the swelling is further decrease in perfusion of the laminae with oxygen, resulting in more damage, more inflammation, and more swelling. So the cycle goes round. Phenylbutazone is a excellent antiinflammatory with a remarkable ability to decrease swelling. Has NoBute been established to do this in horses?
I agree the Horminase looks promising but we have no well designed studies of efficacy or safety while we do know that pergolide is safe even at much higher doses due to the early work with this medication.
It is very important to note the use of bute in older horses requires adjusting either the dose or the frequency see, Medications: Antiinflammatories: Phenylbutazone for details. We also have a through discussion on NoBute at, Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals: Anti-inflammatories, Steroids, and Arthritis Treatment: No Bute.
Hope this helps, I can't say what you are doing will not work, but I can say that since pergolide has come around, I don't seem to have as much trouble as you are at getting these horses better.
DrO |
Susan Frederick (Founder)
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2000 - 1:39 pm: | |
I agree 100% with Dr O. regarding Elizabeth's horse. We have found Bute to be invaluable, and Permax to have remarkable results with these horses.
Regarding the Hormonise article: It is certainly an interesting field study. I congratulate the researchers for a fine effort. However, reviewing their results, it appears to me that the most significant effect that Hormonise seemed to have on these horses is 1) an (sometimes temporary) improvement in the heavy hair coat (for affected horses with hirsutism) 2) improvement in attitude and energy level in some horses and 3) an improvement in estrus cycling and/or fertility in some mares. It's effect on improving laminitic symptoms appeared to be minimal. From what I could ascertain, only 3 of the 10 horses in the study had laminitis as part of their Cushingoid symptoms. Of these three, only two were acute (a pony) who "began trotting around, but no one would call him sound" on the Hormonise. The other, a palomino gelding, was refractory, had minimal improvement in his laminitic symptoms on Hormonise, and refoundered in the fall (while still on the drug) although the researchers suggested that "the ground was hard"(!!) The third laminitic case, a pony, was chronic having suffered repeated bouts in the past, but were not currently having an episode, so no effect (concerning his laminitis) could be noted. My conclusions from reading this article? Might be interesting to try Hormonise if your Cushingoid horse has hirsutism, lethargy and abnormal estrus cycles. If your horse/pony has laminitis, then only modest improvement might be expected.
As Dr O knows, we have had excellent results with the LAMINITIC symptoms of these horses using pergolide. Many others, have had similar results. My hope for Elizabeth is that if she doesn't get significant results regarding her horse's refractory laminitis on the Hormonise, that she WILL try the Permax that her veterinarian recommended. In our experience, it will change her mare's life, for the better!
Susan |
Valerie Snapp (Valjean)
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2001 - 9:10 pm: | |
Susan, I have been very interested in your postings and have a comment/question for you. My farrier who works closely with Dr. Redden and also with a large vet practice near Nashville takes care of a huge number of foundered horses. For some time he has been requesting that all owners of foundered horses that he cares for be tested for Cushings, even if there are no other symptoms. With over a hundred horses in the past year being tested, only two were "negative" for Cushings, one of the positives was a 3 year old!
Do you think it possible that all these horses actually have a tumor in the pituitary? and are all the horses that you see with laminitis tested for Cushings?
My farrier told me recently that at the laminitis symposium in KY recently, he was approached by a feed manufacturer who told him they were developing a feed specifically for the cushinoid horse! very low carbs. I have pressed him to get more information and will post any information I get. Val |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2001 - 9:12 am: | |
Valerie,
What tests are being run and what results are being used to define Cushings? It strikes me as very very unlikely that a 3 year old is Cushinoid.
DrO
PS: Valerie, remember new questions not pertaning to the original post should have their own discussion. I will move this into its own discussion in a day or two so watch for it in this forum. |
cj stumpf (Cjstumpf)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2001 - 6:54 pm: | |
Hi Elizabeth,
Who makes the nylon booties with velcro close you mentioned earlier, and what are they called?
Regards,
-CJ |
Valerie Snapp (Valjean)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2001 - 2:31 pm: | |
Hello All, just a note to tell you that McCauley's has developed a feed for horses prone to laminitis and for cushinoid horses. The feed is called ALAM, its a soft pellet held together by vegetable oil and can easily made into a mash for horses with poor dentition. I have not called the company yet so do not know how the carbohydrates stack up against plain crimped oats. If anyone is interested the company is in Versailles, KY and their phone number is 859-873-3333. I am slowly adding this product to my mares diet of soaked alfalfa cubes, hopefully she will be happier now that she is getting "real food". Val |
Ro Vinson (Ravinson)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 23, 2002 - 2:31 pm: | |
Dr. O. - In a message on the nutritional issues above, you stated that you recommend the foundered horse not be given carrots. Are they high in carbohydrates? I have a horse with Cushings with severe laminitis and I have been giving her a lot of carrots (one the few things she is interested in eating) for the past couple months. Hope I haven't been doing damage to her...Otherwise she is getting bermuda hay and 2 cups of oats with her meds BID. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 24, 2002 - 7:13 am: | |
Yes carrots are compartively high in rapidly soluable carbohydrates. I would greatly cut down on the treats.
DrO |
Shirley A. Johnson (Shirl)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 8, 2002 - 6:48 pm: | |
Dr. O.
I recently read on another web site that MSM is a no-no for horses with laminitis/Cushings. Is this true? Just began my 20 year old mare on it, as I discontinued the glucosamine/chrondrotin due to the dx. Please let me know at your convenience. At this point I'm confused.
Thanks, Shirley |
Shirley A. Johnson (Shirl)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 15, 2002 - 2:30 pm: | |
Second request - anyone out there! Is MSM a no-no for horse with Cushing's and l hoof with some laminitis! Thanks for ANY help. |
Valerie Snapp (Valjean)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 15, 2002 - 4:13 pm: | |
Shirley, I saw your original post and asked my vet about MSM (I am currently treating a horse with laminitis and possibly!!!cushings. His response was that it certainly wouldn't hurt but that it probably wouldn't help much either. valerie |
Shirley A. Johnson (Shirl)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 15, 2002 - 6:47 pm: | |
Thanks Valerie, That's what I thought but my vet is so bogged down with emergencies, I didn't want to take her time for that. Again, thanks. Shirl |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 16, 2002 - 9:06 am: | |
Shirley,
For information on MSM run a search, we have often discussed this subject in the past. For better responses you should post questions not directed at the "originator" of a discussion in a new conversation. For more on this see the READ THIS FIRST topic which has a link beside every Add A Message form.
DrO |
Valera A. Hascup
Member
Username: Vhascup
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 21, 2003 - 8:40 am: | |
Dear Dr. O: I have been reading with great interest these discussions re laminitis and cushinoid horses. I have a Morgan gelding age 18 who just foundered, who does not have Cushings. He is quite cresty, but blood work revealed ACTH levels as normal, but insulin levels as high. His thyroid TSH level revealed a slightly low thyroid functioning, and he has been on supplement for that. His founder symptoms were somewhat atypical; he was only slightly lame in the right front foot, and it was initially diagnosed as a stone bruise. He became very much worse 10 days later, and the shoe was pulled and x-rays taken which revealed a significant degree of rotation in the coffin bone. He had corrective shoeing immediately, was started on isoxuprene, bute and banamine; and the following day, foundered in the left foot. He has been on Equine Senior for a year or so, and my vet said it was an excellent high quality feed, especially for older horses. That amount has been reduced, and his sweet feed/beet pulp wet mixture that he was getting at night was removed, and he was also placed in a paddock without much grass. The vet said he can have plenty of good quality hay. My point is that as you stated, the exact cause of laminitis is not known, and therefore there is no definitive treatment to date. It is based on experience and trying to see what works. My vet stated that even the "experts" cannot agree on what is the best choice of treatment, and there are numerous theories out there. Let's all support active research for this destructive disease. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 8982
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 24, 2003 - 7:41 pm: | |
Important to realize is that for many of the conditions and disease you reference, clinical signs and history are more important than laboratory tests where the results are uncertain as to their significance.
DrO |
joan vecsey
Member
Username: Jvecsey
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 9:06 pm: | |
My pony mare was diagnosed with Cushings 11 years ago. For 9 of those years she was on Permax (human) 3 mg per day. New vet explained pergolide was much cheaper and surprised at dose. He put her on 1 ml (equivalent of 1 mg) Pergolide last October.
She is now 27 and even before the switch to Pergolide, she was beginning to get ribby. Once in while, she had a little liquid diarrhea mixed in with manure.
She has continued to lose weught (or muscle mass) and diarrhea precedes well formed manure.
I have increased her Purina Senior (I always was a low grain feeder). She gets good grass hay. I have added beet pulp, sunflower seeds. Her teeth were power floated (last guy did not do good job), and ran her through a Panacur Power Pac in addition to her regular deworming.
Any suggestions? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 15114
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 10:22 am: | |
Hello Joan,
Begin by reviewing the article on problem keepers at Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss. You will find solid recommendations for feeding and management. Also you might want to look at Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview. After reading if you have questions you should begin your own discussion in either of those forums or this forum.
DrO |
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