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  Discussion on Quidding hay and grass
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2001 - 8:03 pm:

My 15(?) yr. old appy mare is quidding hay and grass. She's DrOpped a significant amount of weight in the last 3 months. She had a slight bout of colic -=-I think because I was unaware that she wasn't getting any nutrition due to the DrOpping of food, and I wasn't giving her grain routinely.(She's in a 40 acre pasture with free choice hay.)The Vet tubed her and suggested dental work, which was done.
Three vets have now checked her--teeth have been worked on,blood work okay with the exception of slight anemia which they expected,wormed on schedule.
She has no trouble eating grain--although I have to watch that she doesn't bolt it because she's hungry. I've now increased her ration of grain and switched her to Purina Equine Senior. She's gaining weight very slowly but only because of increased grain--she still makes cigars of her hay and grass and can't swallow them.
Tomorrow I'm going to call another vet and I wonder if I should ask for an x-ray of her throat and/or mouth.
She's not depressed or lethargic--she cantered in to the barn when I arriverd today.
If her teeth are not the cause of her quidding, what other causes should I look for?
I'd appreciate your advice--thanks,
Patty

Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2001 - 10:02 pm:

Hello, Patty,

I have three older horses that can't chew hay well, though they have had dental work, etc. Some horses teeth wear down differently than others, or the grinding surfaces may not be coming in contact with one another due to a molar in the way back that is longer than in should be, or due to the shape of the jaw.

I have found that my older guys do quite well on a complete feed pellet that I soften with water. I also feed out some softened alfalfa cubes and a chopped timothy hay mix that comes in a poly-wrapped bale. I try to keep the oldest guy away from hay, because I think that one of the reasons he may have colicked in the last couple of years is because he swallowed a wad of hay that he forgot to spit out! He leaves quids of grass around the pasture all summer, and the other horses pick them up. He is at least thirty-five and has "smooth mouth," but with proper feeding looks healthier than some younger horses.

If you have a feed company that makes a complete pellet, that's what I recommend. I have tried the new extruded senior feeds, also, but they are more expensive per pound and you'll have to feed more because they are lighter. This winter, I have also added beet pulp pellets to the feeding regimen for two of the older geldings, and that seems to work well because it is cheaper than the pellets and helps get extra water into their digestive systems during the cold, dry winter here in Vermont. The beet pulp takes a little extra time, but with a minimum of planning, you can soak it with hot water while you are getting ready for work in the morning, or set it to soak the evening before. It is important to feed bran with the beet pulp, though; a 1/4 cup of bran to one cup of beet pulp.

There are so many ways to accomodate senior horses these days. I hope you find something that works well for your horse.

Holly

Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2001 - 10:24 am:

Hello Patty,
Yes sometimes a radiograph will reveal anormalities (tooth root abscesses) that you cannot see on physical exam, so I would talk to the new vet about it. To examine the throat I would suggest a endoscopic exam, but I would suspect an occult tooth problem first.
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2001 - 1:44 pm:

Hi Holly

May I Ask why it's important to add bran to beet pulp? I've not heard that mentioned before.

D.

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 17, 2001 - 9:05 pm:

Hello, Deb,
I am not a biochemist, but the way I understand it is that it is important to feed bran with beet pulp (if you are feeding it regularly) to keep a balanced calcium/phosphorus ratio. I think it's the beet pulp that is high in calcium (?) and it needs phosphorus to balance it.

Do you feed beet pulp on a regular basis? If so, why have you chosen to feed it? During our cold winters, horses often don't get the amount of water necessary to digest with their hay, so I started feeding beet pulp for the first time this winter when my oldest guy had a bout with colic. Even though I always put warm water on his grain and add hot water to his icy water in his bucket, I wasn't sure he was getting enough, so a friend suggested the beet pulp/bran combination in addition to a measure of the complete pellets. He seems to enjoy the beet pulp, and we've had no other colic episodes.

Holly

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 17, 2001 - 9:19 pm:

I forgot to add:

Also, with a horse on complete feed, even though there is fiber in the feed, beet pulp provides a good, inexpensive, yet nutritious source of fiber.

Holly

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2001 - 7:50 am:

No need to guess guys go see: Care for Horses: Nutrition: Nutritional Content of Common Feedstuffs for Horses for the Ca and Ph levels.
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2001 - 7:19 pm:

Hi Holly

This is what I've been doing for my old guy. (He's at least 25, weighs 1100lbs., has hardy any good teeth to chew with, oddly he has never "quidded")

First, regular dental exams. (Without regular maintenance he will develop wave mouth, also is missing a couple molars).

Seems to be able to chew green grass Ok in the summer time, so far I've only needed to supplement in the winter.

In the winter I've been feeding approx. 6lb Senior Horse and 6lb beet pulp mixed, plus about 1 1/2 cups of canola oil. I divide this into two feedings both of which are well soaked in warm water,(with the water each feeding makes up to about 5 gallons, which I find is all he can eat in one sitting). When its very cold I try to add an extra meal, he has gotten pretty good at letting me know when he wants more. Fortunately I have my horses where I live, makes it easier to do all this.
This horse is out on pasture with other horses so he also has access to hay which he tries to eat but, does not have great success. We bed them on straw so he of course eats that as well. (Straw seems easier to eat than hay, unfortunately not a great source of nutrition, hence my wish to find a better fiber source).

Now as to why. Beet pulp is a good fiber source, which I think he needs because I'm not sure how much hay he is able to eat. (I wonder myself if some of these old guys colic because they are not able to eat enough fiber, due to their bad teeth).
As I understand it beet pulp is fermented in the hind gut, so I think this fermenting might help keep him warm. I also think because it is fermented it may take more time to digest so hopefully the meal stays with him longer.
It has more protein and DE than the straw which has good fiber but not much else.
Both hay and straw (as per Dr. O's article) have a fairly low Ca:P ratio so I think the Ca is being diluted to a reasonable level in this case.
Finally it does help ensure he gets enough water.

I like adding the senior horse because it has vitamins, minerals and other nutrients which might be lacking elsewhere.

My regular Doc. tells me that Canola oil is more biologically available to horses that most other fat sources. It is also less expensive here as it is grown in this area.

Phew! long story, hope this all makes sense to you.

D.

Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2001 - 8:04 pm:

Hi, again, Deb,
Thanks for sharing your old guy's menu. He is a very lucky guy to have someone who is willing to go the extra mile for him nutritionally. I have used corn oil, gradually increasing to no more than three cups a day in three separate feedings, for some of the neglect cases I have had. I have had great success with feeding it in combination with a complete feed, but I usually discontinue using the oil once the horses have reached their healthy weight. I have not had to continue feeding the oil as the horses seem to be able to maintain their weight on a complete feed ration (for those who can't chew the hay). I have also used alfalfa cubes to provide extra "chew time" for my oldest fellow, but I usually add some water to them, also.

I have found that these old guys are so worth the effort and extra money, as they often make the most trustworthy mounts for children and beginner riders.

Happy Trails with your horses as you enter spring. (We're JUST entering spring here in Vermont!)
Holly

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2001 - 1:53 pm:

Hi Holly

I've tried Alfalfa cubes and even 50:50 cubes to. But my weirdo horse does not like alfalfa. (I've got a few fat horses around here who would love to have such a treat). It makes me laugh because even with the feed all thoroughly soaked and carefully mixed together he can sort through it and leave me with a pile of uneaten alfalfa sitting in the middle of the feeder. Horses have the most amazing lips. :)

D

Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2001 - 2:14 pm:

Deb,
Wow!!! A horse that doesn't like alfalfa?! That's like a kid who doesn't like candy!!!

As long as your guy seems content, you don't have to offer him extra "chewing time." During the winter, when there is NOTHING else for my guys to eat but what I give them, I was feeling badly for my old Appy, so started buying a baled, chopped, timothy mix that has molasses and corn oil in it. I'd give the Appy a few handfuls in a rubber bucket in his corner hay feeder so he could pretend he was eating hay like the other guys in the barn. Unfortunately, he couldn't chew the stalky parts of the timothy and I would find it all under the feeder the next time I did chores, but I think he enjoyed eating all the leafy parts!
I've switched back to cubes though, because he doesn't waste them.

Holly

Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 1:51 am:

Dear Patty:

I am coming to this late, but I have a couple of suggestions and a point or two that you might find helpful.

First, concerning mixing bran with beet pulp as suggested by Holly:

Beet Pulp is higher in Calcium (Ca) than Phosphorous (Ph). Ideally a Horse should receive Ca/Ph ratio of 1.1:1 to 3:1. If the ratio is inverted (ie. more Ph than Ca) the health and indeed the life of the horse is in danger. This is very important to understand when adjusting feed.

-Grass hays have a Ca/Ph ratio of 1.1:1 to 2.3:1 with Orchard Grass being the lowest.
-Alfalfa has a Ca/Ph ratio of 5.7:1.
-Beet Pulp has a Ca/Ph ratio of 6.89:1
-Rice bran has a Ca/Ph ratio of 0.06:1.
-Wheat bran has a ratio of 0.11:1.

Therefore, adding bran to beet pulp does very little to improve the Ca/Ph ratio. Bran is a good way to increase fat in the diet, but so is vegetable oil. So if you are going to add bran, do it for a reason better than improving the Ca/Ph ratio.

Beet Pulp has the benefit of high digestibilty, more Digestible Energy per pound than grass hays (but less than grain), and it doesn't interfere with the nutrient balance of most common feeding programs. Beet Pulp is not a significant source of Vitamins or Required minerals and as such cannot fully substitute for other forages with out supplementation.

If you can get your hands on a book "The Older Horse" you will find it very helpful addressing issues of the aging and senior horse. I also have "Understanding the Older Horse" but I would recommend the first.

If you can, have your horse checked by an equine dentist. Not all Vets are created equal when it comes to dentistry and the problem you described may need more comprehensive rehabilitation than just a good floating of the teeth will provide.

If your horses teeth are out of alignment and have been for a while, a Equine Chiropractor can be helpful. At first blush this may sound "weird" but the way that the jaw connects to the neck and the whole of the equine skeletal structure is such that a Chiropractor can be extremely beneficial in regards to the teeth.

Anyway, perhaps the problem has corrected itself by now (or so I hope!). These are my humble opinions only and the price was right!

Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 12:42 pm:

Dear Patty,

I'm coming into this late too, but I just wanted to add some things I've learned from personal experience. Dennis is SO right that not all vets are created equal when it comes to "real" dentistry. Shockingly, even the vet schools are behind the curve here. I know because I have a vet who specializes in advanced equine dentistry. Purdue University is begging him to teach there, but he doesn't want to give up his practice. Frankly, I don't know what my 23 year old Morgan would do without him. Most vets just don't have the highly specialized equipment to do the work he does. If you can possibly get your horse examined by a DVM with this specialized knowledge, DO it! You might be stunned by what he can do for her.
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