|
|
Discussion on Possible head shaking syndrome?
Use the navigation bar above to access articles and more discussions on this topic.
| Author |
Message |
    
Frances Yeardley (Yeardley)
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 11, 2001 - 6:16 pm: |   |
I am at my wit's end trying to figure out what has seemed like a training or attitude issue with my horse, but maybe it is allergies (or something)? I actually went looking on the internet to see if there was something prozac-like to try, and fell upon Cyproheptadine for shaking head. He does exhibit a few of the symptoms. He tends to have a slight "frothy" nose, often slightly runny eyes, gets winded rather easily for a horse of his fitness level. When he is ridden, sometimes he is "compelled" to stick his head way up, sometimes he gets very fussy on the bit and comes very behind the bit, or he slings his head about, actually becoming rather dangerous. And sometimes he is just plain wonderful...there is no logic to his behavior that I can find. Does this sound like shaking head syndrome or allergies? Might the Cyproheptadine help him even if he is just crazy? |
Frances Yeardley (Yeardley)
| | Posted on Saturday, Aug 11, 2001 - 11:56 pm: | |
Also he rubs his muzzle a lot.. |
lynne ashforth (Lynnea)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2001 - 1:58 pm: | |
Frances, I know nothing about shaking head syndrome ( I am pleased to say I have not experience that one), but I do know that Cyproheptadine is the drug they were using for Cushings syndrome before Pergolide became available. I would ask a good vet before trying a drug not recommended. You could get into more problems. Perhaps his teeth, or sinus or vision is causing him a problem. I would eliminate these possiblities first. Wishing you and him luck in solving this. |
Frances Yeardley (Yeardley)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2001 - 2:45 pm: | |
Thanks Lynne.
This is a 14 yr old Grand Prix dressage horse, he is very well looked after vet wise, teeth, etc. are kept in very good shape. We have all been passing this off as a behaviour/training/attitude problem, and in my frustration with his most recent Mr Hyde episode, I was looking on the internet for horse prozac or something for neurotic horses. I am waiting to reach my vet on Monday, but I am betting his symptoms are so innocuous as to be undiagnosable. He has had a lifelong history of behavior problems before he ever came to me, and I am positive that every aspect has been checked to try to account for it, before they decided to resell to the next fool.
I just came across this drug by accident as well as the symptoms of head shaking syndrome in my research, which he does display some of, although he never really just shakes his head. He gets mad for no reason and SLINGS his head. But maybe that's the reason for the perceived "no reason" outburst, mild head shaking syndrome. I don't know. Don't think any vet will really know either
with this particular guy. I guess my real question is, since cyproheptadine has a histamine and seratonin blocking qualities, why wouldn't it be smarter to start on that, if there is a slight sinus problem, as well as being a dangerous horse some days for whatever reasons, might not the seratonin leveler be the smart thing to start with, before he hurts somebody (me)?
At this point, to be honest, I am more concerned with my well being. Really don't want to "try" things that don't level this guy's brain out for fear of getting injured in the interim waiting to see if they work. |
ANN COLLIER (Dres)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2001 - 7:56 pm: | |
my gal friend has a horse that was becoming a constant pain to ride... but what i had noticed was that it was a seasonal thing... in the winter the horse was wonderful, early spring and late summer he would start 'acting' up again... he would literally shake his head all the time, strike the air while trotting, sometimes get very lite on his front legs, sneezing, etc...she has since got him started on allergy shots every other day and the horse wears a net around his nose, WHAT A DIFFERENCE IN HIM....
my understanding is that 'head shakers' is something that is becoming pretty common in our horses..
hope this helps some
ann |
Suzanne Moore (Suzym)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2001 - 11:53 pm: | |
I agree with Ann - before getting into potent meds like cyproheptadine, try one of those new fly masks that covers the end of the muzzle. I've heard they can work wonders with some head-shakers. I'm just beginning to see these in the catalogs. It sure would be worth a try.
I've been investigating cyproheptadine myself because my 23 year old gelding has elevated glucose, and one of my vets suggested it to try to get the glucose down. I found out that, because cyproheptadine is a serotonin antagonist, aggressiveness is a rare but documented side effect. I would definitely try the "nose mask" first!
Suzy |
lynne ashforth (Lynnea)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 13, 2001 - 1:13 am: | |
Is it also possible that this horse has been through a lot of different trainers and owners over the years and just has developed "I've had it attitude" to work? and acting up is a message for a change...just a thought!! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 13, 2001 - 4:55 pm: | |
Hello Francis,
For much more information on Head Shaking in horses including the use of cyproheptidine see: Training Horses: Behavioral Problems: Head Shaking.
DrO |
Mary H. Schultz (Chip)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2001 - 6:09 pm: | |
Hi Francis,
I don't know if this will help you, but on the off chance, I thought I would pass it along. A woman at my barn has a very sweet 7 yr warmblood mare she uses for dressage ... very sweet, except for this sometime head shaking thing - noticed only during exercise. So, it might be easy to chalk up to 'attitude' or 'training'. However, her episodes became worse, until they finally started treatment for allergies. When that did not prove to make any difference, the vet put a 'scope down her windpipe (I'm pretty sure) and saw a bunch of nodules all over the place. Apparently, these act to irritate the horse, particularly during increased breathing, and the poor horse was only trying to fix the 'tickle'. So, the horse went to a specialist vet in NJ and had the nodules lasered off. She is still recovering, but seems to be doing well. Any way, it is an easy thing to check for.
Good luck with your horse.
Mary |
Frances Yeardley (Yeardley)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2001 - 9:13 pm: | |
Thank you all!
Dr O, that's where I got the cypro info to begin with, of course!! ;-)
Lynne, of course he's been through the owners, but am betting his attitude is what kept him going to the next owner.
Mary, I will have the vet check for nodules, that's very interesting!
I started him on the cypro yesterday, rode him today, and even though he began with some obnoxiousness, I could tell his heart wasn't really into being a monster, so I could easily ride him through it. Then he stopped, scratched his nose on his leg, snorted a few times, (which he has never done before)then went on and worked real nice. I will keep you posted how it goes. Wouldn't it be nice to have solved this? Keep your collective fingers crossed. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2001 - 7:09 am: | |
Excellent, let us know how it works.
DrO |
Kathleen Oldford (Oldford)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2001 - 8:52 pm: | |
HI-
I have a 10 year old TB who exhibited a lot of the symptoms you are talking about as well as others--head shaking/flipping up and down, rubbing nose on leg, head up with a tilt now and then, stiff in the neck, choppy front end movement. I had two great vets who I admire (and still do) look at his teeth, feel for edges etc. No problem they both said, he's fine in the teeth department.
With the teeth ruled out I investigated all sorts of things--- nosebands, allergy approaches, head shaking treatments, bits, back exams, etc.
Finally I trusted my instincts after 12 months of obvious discomfort on my horse's part and took him to a veterinary dentist at the university equine hospital. He sedated my horse, put a speculum on him to hold his mouth open, shined a light way back there and said "Well, here we are, this is what's bothering the poor guy, two huge hooks on his back lower molars (these teeth are under the eye socket by the way and can't be properly seen without a speculum and a flashlight). He said they had probably been growing back there for two years or more. He needed two drills and 15 minutes to take them off, and round off the edges. Now I have a happy horse, no problems. The $95 it cost me was well worth it.
So, as much as you love your vet, if he hasn't used a speculum to crank open the mouth and look at every tooth, don't rule out the teeth/mouth as part of the problem.
Nothing against any vet here, some of them just don't like to do teeth. Can't blame them.
I know there are some non-vets who advertise as equine dentists who are excellent at it, but depending on the state, they may not be insured, licensed or formally trained. Check with your state.
Good luck. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2001 - 6:16 am: | |
Great post Kathleen to remind us that we don't always know what we think we know. Did your horse show discomfort while he was chewing?
DrO |
Suzanne Moore (Suzym)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2001 - 12:31 pm: | |
Yes, Kathleen ~ Super advice! I'm very lucky that I have a dental specialist who is a DVM. I don't know how I ever got along without him  |
Frances Yeardley (Yeardley)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2001 - 9:56 am: | |
An update.
I really really appreciate all the responses!
My horse has been on the cypro for a full week now, even went to a horse show over the weekend. He tends to be better at horse shows, gets distracted or something so he likes the security of me being there for him (or something..I dunno)
I would say he is some improved. His misbehavior is now only when I ask him for something truly hard, like piaffe and passage, and that is normal. As compared to being unwilling to just walk or trot. And his misbehaviors were not as violent.
Most interesting though, is that this week he was standing in his stall and I noticed him shaking his head at gnats as all horses do, which I realized I have never seen him do before. hmmmmm.
Maybe of some significance or not.
I think I will plan to take him to the vet school soon and let them take a look at his teeth and down his throat. He was floated in the spring with a speculum, can't say for sure whether something was missed of course....
In the meantime, going to keep him on the cypro, I think it is doing something beneficial. |
Frances Yeardley (Yeardley)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2001 - 8:01 pm: | |
Well! I have had 2 days of a wonderful willing horse! Why? I don't know. He's on the cypro, the weather is perfect, I have changed some of my riding techniques....(which I've tried before to no avail).
I do have a feeling that the cypro is making him more level headed so that we can enjoy and experiment with stuff, so maybe it's the combination. Anybody's guess, eh? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2001 - 7:55 am: | |
Hello Frances,
The recommendation of cyproheptidine comes from human medicine. Some horses with head shaking are believed to be allergic to bright light. Before you laugh, this is a reported condition in humans: exposure to bright light makes their nose itch and they sneeze.
The cyproheptidine is a H1 antihistimine blocker. Like other H 1 -receptor antihistamines, cyproheptadine acts by competing with histamine for sites on H 1 -receptor sites on effector cells. Antihistamines do not block histamine release, but can antagonize its effects. Cyproheptadine also possesses potent antiserotonin activity and reportedly has calcium channel blocking action as well. We are not sure if it is just the antihistimine activity or the other actions that produces results.
DrO |
Jaime Taft (Jtaft)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2001 - 6:21 pm: | |
As one of the bright light "allergy" suffers, I can contest that this condition truly does exist in humans. :-) In fact, I believe it may be genetic, my mother having been the same way. I've encounted many people throughout the years who are also this way, however, people who are not "sun-sneezers" (as I call it) cannot fathom why when I feel a sneeze coming on I just turn on a light or look up at the sun and AHHCHOOO! Anyway, not really adding much here, but I am curious if this is really an "allergy", for horses or humans. For me, its usually the initial presence of a bright light that will trigger a sneeze (or help one along if one's coming) but after that I will not continue to sneeze if I stay out in the sun (one or two will do it). Also, I've never had any other "allergy-like" symptoms accompanying it (runny eyes, itchyness, etc.). |
Frances Yeardley (Yeardley)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2001 - 8:36 pm: | |
The past 4 days. WOW! I have a completely new horse. He has been absolutely delightful! He has never ever been this willing, level headed and an absolute joy to ride.
He has been on the cypro for 10 days now. I am guessing that the timeline is strongly suggesting that it the cypro, not just happenchance.
Yippee! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2001 - 7:19 am: | |
Hello All,
Great Frances. Jaime, have you ever tried, or had recommended, any medications for it?
DrO |
Jaime Taft (Jtaft)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2001 - 1:28 pm: | |
DrO-
No, I never would have thought to try medicating for it. Do people really suffer from this? Because I've always looked at it as kind of a nice thing. Have you ever had a sneeze coming on that just wouldn't come, but the tickle wouldn't go away either? Well with me, just looking up at a bright light will bring it on. Funny story - my mom every day at lunchtime used to go to a deli around the corner from her work. One day a woman on the street stopped her and said "Every day I pass you at the same time, and every day as you come around that corner you sneeze twice." Well of course as she came around that corner the sun would hit her straight in the eyes, thus triggering the sneezes! But other than that some strange looks sometimes from non-sun-sneezers as I squint up at a bright light trying to bring a sneeze on, it really doesn't bother me at all. I can certainly attest I haven't had any head shaking or behavior problems like this horse exhibited! I don't have any real allergies, and I can't think of anything that bothers me that could even remotely be related, so I can't think of a reason why I would medicate for it. |
Patricia T Cifelli
Member
Username: Sycamore
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2003 - 9:10 pm: | |
My horse has recently developed these same symptoms - tossing head with front legs coming up, blowing and ITCHY nose and I seem to have linked it to sun exposure of the skin. I have owned her 13 yrs., since her birth and has just happened. She is fine on an overcast day. Start on cypro tomorrow and hope I get your results. |
|
