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Discussion on Some success re culicoides/skin itch/rubbing!
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Chris Mills
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 1999 - 11:44 am: |   |
Many of you have seen my posts about my poor mare and her seasonal rubs/allergies.
Well, I am on to something I want to share.
Memorial Day (end of May) we dramically changed her living conditions - she is now in a large turnout paddock with a run in stall, 24/7. She can go in/out at will.
I stopped using all bug repellents/insecticides on her except Clac 86 and a homemade mixture of tea tree oil and water (for riding).
I wash her mane and tail once a week with Palmolive. A couple of times a week I rub OTC cortisone cream on the rubbed area of her tail. Nearly every day, one of us dusts her rubbed area with Gold's Medicated Powder. I wipe her with Clac 86 when I am out there. We put a small "glug" of apple cider vinegar in her water.
Initially (2 weeks) she wore a fly sheet, but it has been off for a few weeks.
Our observations: All ick, itch, pustles along her ventral mid-line have cleared up. She does appreciate a scritch there and on her chest, but no ick is evident. Her tail rubs are growing new hair. Her hogged mane has a few rubbed/broken hairs, but no big zone rubbed to the nub. The mane isn't exuding ick from the hair roots. Her face doesn't have the bald patches around her eyes.
Here's my theory: The barn has an insecticide system that sprays several times a day, a nozzle over each stall. I think the horse does have some allergies - whether bug bites, pollen, you name it. And she has developed a big allergy to the insecticides we habitually spritz on our horses!
The various allergens compound and cause her discomfort. Being in the stable is boring, so she starts to rub and the cycle gets worse and worse. Confined in a stall, she can't move away from what is bothering her ... my tip off was how badly she got after being kept indoors 3 days in a row.
So, we've removed one allergen (pesticide) and changed her enviroment enought to 1) provide more distractions, 2) give her more options of where to be when bugs are biting, 3) put her in a higher area on the farm, further from water and were the breezes blow, if they blow.
Is she cured? No. But, she is much, much happier and improving. The difference in her "look" tells the story.
Maybe some of this will trigger other people to look over their horse's regimen/environment and make some not so intuitive/obvious changes that help. She certainly responded well to a counter intuitive, drastic change.
Cheers. |
Rhonda Mumm
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 1999 - 3:11 pm: | |
You just made me think about something. I have a mare with severe seasonal allergies, probably cullicoid. We are under control for the first time ever, and her skin looks good, tail rubbing ceased. But last night, she rubbed her tail a lot and I attributed it to the fact it is hot outside and she is in heat. But your post makes me wonder.
Changes I made that resulted in her excellent condition this year (I wasn't sure what contributed the most)
1. Vet gave a shot of Extem (Immunity stimulator)
2. Dosed with Azium for 1 1/2 weeks
3. Wash dock of tail every other day, usually with no shampoo, but kept her very clean.
4. Added flaxseed to her diet (suggested in Horse and Rider)
5. Eliminated chemical sprays, switching to a natural fly spray instead.
But Chris, I mentioned above she rubbed her tail last night pretty badly. The change? The mosquitoes were so bad that I sprayed her thoroughly with a chemcial spray as I didn't think the natural spray would be effective enough. And immediately the rubbing began. I'm thinking now this must be the number one factor causing her itchiness and tail rubbing. I really didn't think this was it. Hmmmm...... |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 1999 - 4:09 pm: | |
Rhonda,
Now you've reminded me! One evening was especially buggy and still - I used conventional fly spray to "be extra" sure, as well as a roll on.
I did notice rubs the next time out, so I made the connection and stopped all insecticide.
Doesn't this make some sense? We use the pyrethrins/permethrins seasonally when the bugs are out ... the itches are started so we use more and more - applying to the specific itchy areas ... and the poor horse gets worse and worse - are we unknowingly adding to the problem?
All I know is, I'm not using conventional fly spray this year.
About the flax seed - where do you find yours and how do you keep it from going rancid? Do you grind it? How much do you feed?
Cheers. |
Rhonda Mumm
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 1999 - 4:30 pm: | |
Yes it does make sense, but it took me longer to make the connection because I didn't start using the sprays until after the rubbing began. I would have to guess that the culicoids cause the initial reaction, and then the chemicals add fuel to the fire.
In the past, I would grind the flaxseed and add to vegetable oil. I only made a little at a time so it would not go rancid. But now that it is hotter outside, I'm just using whole flaxseed. The biggest benefit seems to be one I didn't expect, which is it has calmed my NSH mare substantially. Or maybe she is calmer because she doesn't itch! But her mane and tail is less dry, and the behavioral changes are so dramatic I'm thinking the added fat to her diet has helped.
I am going to stick with the natural sprays from now on and pay attention to changes I make that effect her comfort level and attitude. |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 1999 - 5:46 pm: | |
Rhonda,
I'll have to look into the flax seed.
Well, I think it is a combination of things creating an allergic response and the fly spray was putting her over the top.
Maybe being in a barn with an automatic spray system made it worse ...
At least we are having some success. Good for us both!
Cheers. |
The Advisor Vet, RN Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 1999 - 4:59 am: | |
Hello Chris and Rhonda,
fascinating stories. Other authors have written about the development of sensitivity to repellants and insecticide sprays. For horses suspected of this problem it is recommended that new products be applied to a patch of skin and observed for 72 hours for redness, swelling, or hair loss.
Chris, is Gold's Medicated Powder the same as Goldbond's Medicated Powder? And what ingredients are listed? Also, I am not familiar with Clac 86, again help with the ingredients.
How much difference is there in elevation, surrounding folage, and maybe most important surrounding standing water?
DrO |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 1999 - 12:13 pm: | |
Dr. O,
Yes, it is Gold Bond Medicated Powder ... in the orange-yellow can. I must have been having a senior moment.
I'll have to check the Clac 86 ingredients tonight.
The original turnout paddocks are closer (but not real close - about 100 yds) to a water complex series of jumps well in the woods. (They are 3 paddocks deep and 2 across, all with shared fence lines.) They are in an open area, but it is a little more sheltered - base of a knoll. The paddocks have a line of deciduous trees going down the middle. The large water troughs are shared between paddocks by straddling fence lines.
The stable is in an open area, no trees and further from the water complex jumps. All water buckets in the stable are emptied/cleaned daily. The wash stall has an open drain to the outside, but, while damp, the water is usually absorbed in the fairly loamy soil. All barn stalls have personal fans for the horses. There is often a good breeze up the center aisle of the barn due to its orientation on the site. The barn is unusually light and airey inside due to light colored paint and opaque sky light sheets.
The current (good) paddock with run in-stall is maybe a total of 20 ft higher elevation, on a slight slope, in an open are that is more more exposed, but a couple of large trees cast shade. It is the furthest from the water complex. It doesn't have a water trough, but water buckets in the stall area that are emptied/cleaned daily. No standing water in this heat, although in winter there is a muddy area in one corner. This paddock does seem to catch more breezes due to exposure.
I had read that gnats range for a couple of miles. The difference in these distances are a few hundred yards.
I know a lot has changed. But, the one day I slipped up and used a traditional insect repellent, she had definite rubbed tail hairs sticking up every which way the next time I saw her.
Cheers. |
Nancy
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 1999 - 3:55 pm: | |
Recently one of my donkeys developed an allergic reaction to gnat bites. Part of the treatment suggested by the vet was a supplement called Missing Link. I bought a 5 pound bag for the donkey. It contains flax seed, spirulina, dried carrot powder, garlic, nettles, lecithin among other things. It came in a vacuum packed bag, and you refrigerate after opening. Also as part of the treatment, I'm supposed to wash the affected areas with a medicated (sulpher) shampoo and use a "natural" insect repellant.
Since the Missing Link is so expensive and since I have a mule that is allergic to insect bites too, I made up my own supplement for him roughly based on the Missing Link ingredients. I obtained all the ingredients from the local natural food store in bulk for less than half the cost of Missing Link. I bought (organic) flax seeds and ground them up in the coffee grinder. I'm keeping the whole mixture in the freezer to preserve the flax seeds.
I've been trying "banana wraps" on all my animals, but they keep pulling them off so I don't know if they work. Banana wraps are fabric wraps for the leg that attach with velcro. One places a few drops of essential oils on them before placing them on each leg. The company is local (Felton, California), and I don't know if they have a web site.
None of my animals has a severe allergic reaction to bug bites. The mule gets welts and slightly crusty sores on his front legs and chest. The donkey gets a few bloody sores on the tender parts of his underside. I haven't been on the nutritional regimen long enough to see if it helps. |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 1999 - 9:44 am: | |
Dr. O.
The Clac-86 bottle says "citronella oil and other natural ingredients."
I tried it as it was tested by Michael Plumb's horse journal a year or two ago and recommended.
Other natural sprays I've heard of are tea tree oil (1 teaspoon per 8 oz. water) and lavender oil (no proportion, so I used the same as the tea tree). I didn't do any real "testing" but it made me feel better to spritz them on. The lavender oil made the horse smell sweet - like an old fashioned barber shop, GRIN. I can't really say whether one or the other works.
Nancy,
Thanks for your suggestions. I'll look into them.
I wonder of flax seed oil would be helpful? It can turn rancid in heat, too. I board my horse, so asking for daily supplementation with something that has to be refrigerated may be asking a lot!
Cheers. |
Penner
Member
Username: Penner
Post Number: 112
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 11, 2003 - 4:40 pm: | |
Hi, I have never seen sweet itch, does this look like it to you all? This horse does not rub the mane or tail, thats why I am confused, too. This is a pic of the R side throat latch area (kind of upside down - sorry). |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 8925
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2003 - 6:57 am: | |
Hello Penner
No: the skin is not abradied from scratching. See » Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Overview of Hair Loss & Irritated Skin for a list of rule outs and ways to diferentiate them.
DrO |
Penner
Member
Username: Penner
Post Number: 113
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 12, 2003 - 12:47 pm: | |
Hi Dr O,
Thank you for your reply. I read the article, & I am wondering if this is ringworm. But it doesn't have raised outline edges (unless they are so faint as to not be felt), is not scaly. I don't know how it began as I don't own this horse yet, just considering the purchase (& the people taking care of her are horrible historians). These hairloss lesions are irregular shaped mostly on base of neck, neck, & all around her eyes too. If this is ringworm I feel uncomfortable putting Full strength povidone or chlorhexidine solution or 1 part Chlorox to 11 parts water around her eyes. What else could I do (besides pills). Would taking a sponge of chlorhexidine solution & wiping around her eyes work - & then leave it on, or wash it off? Would OTC human athlete's foot Lotrimin cream work around the eyes (leaving it on, or this is too dangerous to the eye area).
The lesions are not itchy, no red marks, or bumps (my understanding of skin fungal diseases in general, is that they do not provoke much of an immune response). I do know she has been next to a field of cattle (but not in with them). No other horses on the place have this, but none are as thin skinned as her either.
I am just asking as I want to know how much work this is going to be for me to get rid of all this.
Do you find it takes 6 weeks or so of daily bathing (if this is ringworm)? Thank you. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 8932
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 13, 2003 - 6:40 am: | |
The povidone would be the least irritating if it did get into the eyes. I would apply if full strength but carefully so it did not run into the eyes.
DrO |
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