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Discussion on Friends advising ACE for energetic horse?
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Kami Brooks (Kami)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 1:25 pm: |   |
I've just bought a new horse that was sweet, but energetic when I looked at her on two occasions. Since I've brought her home, she is sweet and willing in the pasture, but once a halter is put on, she becomes a ball of energy with the attention span of a gnat. Friends have recommended using ACE on her to calm her down, but I'm convinced that this problem can be solved without drugs. I'm just not sure how.
ME: Had horses as a kid, am now wrong side of 30, but have been taking some riding lessons and now this is my first horse as an adult. I've worked with all kinds of animals and believe they act in a way that is logical to them or in keeping with their mental make-up.
PRINCESS: Saw her on two ocassions. She paid absoulte attention when working (e.g. lounging) and completely lost focus when preasure was released. On both occassions she had great ground manners and even lead at walk and trot on loose lead (e.g. hanging down between me an her) and I interpreted this as her listening to me. The day I brought the trailer, she was a completely different animal, snorting and stomping so loud that it echoed in the valley. Despite this she did get on the trailer on the second try. She unloaded the same calm horse I'd seen before and acted fine. Two days later, I put a halter on her and she goes from relaxed to extremely upright (I can't figure out how she gets her head that high!) and like a 1000# ball of energy on the end of the rope.
What I've been doing (Have had her 5 days now)...
Her feed is being brought down from 13% to 10% and the quantity reduced (she's fat right now).
Contact with her ever day in the pasture. Durring this I have her walk up to me and I scratch on her. She has some cuts/rubs from her prior place that are healing and likes them rubbed since all fencing, etc in the new pasture is too high for her to rub against. When she gets bored and walks away, I walk away from her and she comes back to me. I give her as many as 2 treats when we're together, but mix it up a lot. Most days only one and some days none. In the pasture she is totally calm.
Then on some days, I put a halter on her. Her energy level goes up 5 notches and she's in high octane mode before even leaving the pasture. So far, we've been walking around and looking at the things on the farm. When we get to where she thinks there are no fences around her, she gets even more exicable. She does not appear paniced or afraid, but is almost too excited to stay in her own skin. I get her attention and tell her to stand. She puts all four feet on the ground and stands, but its like watching an earthquake build in her until she's bouncing all over again. Usually within the minute.
I have only seen her be agressive toward one person that was attempting to bully her (the agression was a single VERY hard stomp, that had it landed, would have broken bones). So far she is not agressive and I don't want to bring this out in her. She has expressed bordom with walking between the fences by switching her tail around, so we're going to lounge in the future.
But I'm hoping to get back that horse that I saw at the farmer's house without using drugs. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I know that it is still too soon to understand how the lower feed will help, but she was on 13% when I saw her and did just fine.
My other issue is that I want to trailer her to a Parelli level 1 training clinic in two or three weeks. Should I take her as is or should I use ACE or should I skip it until this is dealt with?
I didn't expect to have such a training issue on my hands and need the clinic. I think I'll get much more out of it, if I take her. But if that isn't the safe thing for all involved, then I'm willing to go watch.
The only other thing that I've seen in her is that when I tie her to groom her, she calms and will be groomed, (I sing and talk to her the whole time). When I walked out of her sight -- still talking -- and returned, she was rearing up (not pulling on the line, and rearing about 1ft off the ground) this stopped as soon as I was back in view.
I am being told that I need to get tough with her and that I should use ACE. My instinct is that if I get tough with her, she will become agressive. She has already taken over as lead mare in her group, so I don't have high hopes that she will back down from agression. Dispite her antics, she has not been agressive with me so far. And I'm against medicating symptoms if it can be avoided.
Thanks for any help
Kami |
Melissa Webster (Mwebster)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 1:35 pm: | |
A Parelli clinic sounds perfect, and my 2 cents, better she goes without drugs so the results you get are all from training. They should be pretty interested in her, from what I've heard of their program! |
Katrina Turner (Kthorse)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 1:38 pm: | |
Hi Kami,
Everytime, we have a new horse they play up a bit. They need to get used to their new home. Lots of handling and patience so she learns to trust you. Her life has changed and she might be stressing a bit. Be around her as much as you can. I used to sit and read to my first pony as a child . She is probably testing you, espesially if you seem nervous. They are smart and can pick up feelings. I still read to my 5 year old arab when he is hyper. He loves the sound of my voice. It sooths him. Give her a little time to get used to her new home. Katrina |
Rebecca L.M. (Bluemoon)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 4:19 pm: | |
Hi Kami -
Couple of questions - how old is Princess? Also how much training has she had at this point?
There are many things you can try before ACE - such as Wendall Herbs, Hilton Herbs, or Bach's Rescue Remedy. However, herbal blends usually take about 30 days before you see full results.
I think definitely some roundpen work is in order. Cutting back her feed seems like a good idea, but I'm sure Dr. O can tell you more then me about that.
Personally, I wouldn't bring her to the clinic just yet but go and audit. |
Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 2:56 am: | |
Kami, if you're sure you want to try with this horse, you're going to have to be willing to do a lot of work on yourself first. "Getting tough" does not mean attacking or beating your horse. It does, however, mean taking control immediately and letting the animal know that when you are present, YOU are in charge - and the animal is expected to behave accordingly. Your horse MUST be taught what behavior WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. If you don't start informing your horse that silly behavior on a halter is not permitted, then you can't expect the animal to just intuitively know it. In the meantime, I would avoid the "walks" around- at this point, you're only putting her in the situation where the acting up occurs, and you don't have the training experience yet to handle this. Therefore, you only foster the behavior. You see, horses are like children.....they desperately need rules, boundries, and commands. Without these, they have to think for themselves....and since they are mostly followers, or herd animals, making their own decisions is nerve wracking for them. Also, being herd animals, if you allow them to, they will try to establish "pecking order" with you - and as those of us with older siblings know, winding up on the bottom of that order is crummy. Because your horse has just been introduced to a new "herd" ( of which you are a part ), she's trying to get as high up in the pecking order in this new place as she can. Just like a child, she will see how far she can push you. How you respond, will tell her if you deserve any respect or not. It is not fair to expect her to behave, when you have allowed misbehavior. All she learns when you tolerate misbehavior, is that misbehavior is acceptable.
You do not sound as though you know enough about training and properly disciplining ( NOT BEATING) your horse yet. My advice would be, that every time you get her, take her right to the arena and longe, longe, longe until she CANNOT dance around. THEN, walk her around. If she starts up again, longe some more. Go ahead and use treats liberally - ONLY WHEN SHE PERFORMS WELL. The treats at this point, should only come with training - so she learns to associate working with something really good.
Horses are not mind readers. It is your responsibility to make clear, what it is you want. When you are driving a car, you drive it 100% of the time.....if you hit a rough piece of road, you don't sit there passively.......you brake and steer and gain control immediately. When you get your horse, the same thing holds true.....you must be a horseperson 100% of the time.
As for the Parelli clinic, you should go. And by NO means should you take your horse. You will learn far more by watching EVERYTHING that is done to EVERY horse. Take a camera,and a pad. Watch carefully, and don't make the mistake of thinking: This ( or that ) doesn't apply to me. In one way or another, all of it does. If you can't figure out how, then you need more study. You will learn a heck of a lot more, without your horse there to distract you.
And, finally, forget the ACE. If your horse is that bad......get a different horse. The other thing I'd like to reinforce is that any behavior you want FROM your horse, must first be trained INTO the horse by you. |
B Greenwood (Bevpolo)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 9:29 am: | |
Kami,
I agree with Elizabeth. And as far as the ACE goes, it only masks the behavior, doesn't make it go away. You must think from the point that when your horse is doing something you don't want it do, you must make it uncomfortable enough that it will stop doing that behavior. What Elizabeth was saying about longing to the point where the horse can not dance around, what you are doing is keeping her attention and as soon as you lose it (she starts dancing around) you punish her by making her work. When she does something undesirable, make her work. This is positive reinforcement. When she does what you want, give her a break, that is the reward. She will associate that when she does a behavior that is unacceptable, she will have to work, which she won't want to do.
Please be careful with her and really think if this is want you want to do, as it will take a great deal of commitment. You may want to find a trainer that will take her and work her hard for a month and then take riding lessons with her from that same trainer. Best of luck. Bev |
Melissa Webster (Mwebster)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 10:35 am: | |
When I first read your post, I thought you were dealing with some "new horse" respect issues. But now I'm realizing you're probably dealing with a young, green, untrained horse. Is that the case?
If so, I agree with Bev and Elizabeth that you need to think about this project as a serious training commitment. Ask yourself whether training a horse is what you really want to spend your horse-time doing. A better "first horse" might be an older, more experienced horse you can hop on and go have fun with, take lessons on, learn from. Think about your goals. This horse may not fit them. Better to return her and find a different horse, if so.
If you really want to train a horse, and the training process is what gets you psyched, then I also agree with Bev and Elizabeth you need someone at your elbow to guide you every step of the way -- someone who knows what the stages of training are and how to make lessons easy for the horse, who knows what/how to "ask", when/how to reward for a "try", when/how to reprimand, so you get results instead of confusing the horse, letting the horse run all over you, getting injured, etc. It's a program, with a series of tasks to be mastered. Even then, if this horse is a really "tough customer", she may not be the ideal "first training project" for you. The result of training should be a willing, reliable partner that "does its job". (What job do you envision for your mare?)
If you decide she's the perfect training project for you and you decide to keep her, then the Parelli clinic is just one experience along the way, albeit a relevant one given your comments above about her attention span and ground manners! Consider taking both your coach (the person who is going to help you train this horse) and the horse to the clinic. That way, you'll have their help putting the useful stuff you'll learn at the clinic into practice, in the context of their training program.
Good luck, and stay safe! You may want to use a chain over her nose if you handle her in the meantime, so you have some more control. |
Kami Brooks (Kami)
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 2, 2002 - 10:39 pm: | |
Thanks everyone for the encouraging responses. Here is an update:
Princess is 9yo 3/4 Arab. She's had some excellent training in her past, then when 1st owner went to college, she went to cow farmer that was going to make penning horse of her. The cow farmer had her for 3 years. During the purchase process he proudly told me stories of clubbing horses between the ears for mis-behaving (but never said he did this to her). Returning her is not an option, as the prior owners were taking her to kill-sale if I did not buy her.
On the other hand: Princess is doing much better on the lower protein feed. We are working on groundwork and she is getting much more attentive. We're up to working in the ring for 30 minutes and I manage to keep her challenged for the entire time.
I can see that she is definitely building trust in me. I've established some basics (riding/ground) that I want her to have down pat. Once she has these at the farm, then I'm arranging one-day trailering experiences and experiences with other horses so she can learn to relax in new locations and around new horses. I've found some great people willing to help with this.
Now for me... I am working with a horse rescue that needs their horses exercised. They are putting me on progressively more challenging horses (but none that will kill me). This has done a lot for my confidence in general. (The one-hour classes that I had been taking were on a dead broke schooling horse that did the moves even before I asked for them.) I'm auditing at the Parelli clinic and still hoping to take Princess to one later this summer. I've also found a trainer to work with Princess and me together (it was a problem getting a trainer to our farm before). So I’m very excited about my own learning.
Us together. We have already overcome several ‘spook’ challenges this week. She seems to look to me now and if I’m okay, then she’s okay. I’ve introduced several things to her that worried her at the cow farmer’s place and anything I carry to or near her is ‘safe’ to her. We even walked through a puddle yesterday! The day before we worked in rain with winds (everything blowing around) and she was up for it as long as I was. She has also stopped being head/ear shy. Now she actually likes me to rub her head and ears! Today when I groomed her she actually looked like she was going to sleep. -- prob in part because I'm spending 30-45 minutes a day grooming with her.
I’ll be the first to admit that a calm, dead broke horse might be easier, but I feel like Princess is teaching me so much more than I could ever hope. I’m being careful to find ‘experienced’ people with similar ideas to help me learn. I’m also learning to trust my instincts about her and am looking forward to the day that we will be a solid team working together.
So I’m glad that I didn’t take the advice to use drugs with her. She actually looks more relaxed now than I have ever seen her. And I think the biggest thing I’ve learned is that I need to be more patient. She needed the time to calm down (from the move and the feed) and I needed the time to build my confidence as a new horse owner. I’m glad I didn’t attempt to saddler her up and ‘ride it out of her’ on the second day like some said I should. We start riding this week :-)
Thanks again for your help.
Kami |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 2, 2002 - 11:20 pm: | |
Great job, Kami. Best wishes to both of you and to all the rescue horses with whom you work.
Holly |
Katrina Turner (Kthorse)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 3, 2002 - 6:54 am: | |
Good luck Kami. Sounds like you are on the right path. I agree training or retraining your horse is more fun. As long as you have someone experienced to help and guide you. Arabs are fun and very smart she'll keep you on your toes. I know I have had them all my life and I love them.
Katrina |
Melissa Webster (Mwebster)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 3, 2002 - 10:09 am: | |
Great news, Kami! It'll be fun to hear your progress reports going forward. It's awesome you're working with rescue horses.
Melissa |
Elizabeth Donahue (Paul303)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 3, 2002 - 5:05 pm: | |
Relieved to hear of your progress and plans. Always keep in mind the stamina and intellectual capacity of Arabs. Keep your mind on your work and always remember to think a step ahead of your horse. We had an Anglo-Arab that we evented years ago. He was very talented and a very exhausting animal to train. We sold him for a tidy profit....and after him, I swore that I would never have another horse that was smarter than I was. |
Kami Brooks (Kami)
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 13, 2002 - 5:33 am: | |
Just thought I'd give an update on Princess. I've had her for 8 weeks now and am thinking that her last owner wasn't quite the horseman that he made himself out to be.
When I looked at her she was a tad bit flighty, e.g. definitely didn't like motor vehicles in any shape or form. He advised me to get a trainer for a month or so to 'get her back into riding'. I was warned that she rears, will NOT touch water, cannot be ridden on trails, and he changed his tune from "easy trailering" to not sure how you'll get her on a trailer the day I picked her up. (I admit, I bought her because I felt that was God's guidance and wasn't really sure if He was planning to call me home or not)... any way we are doing better than I could have ever imagined.
I continue to spend "pasture time" with her daily and do ground work or ride 3 -4 times a week. Tonight when I went out to give her rubs, she even was putting the parts of her body that she wanted rubbed in front of me. This scared me at first, because at one point she swung her but around to me kinda quick. When I stepped back from her, she backed into me and continued to back into me until I scratched her. First I was relieved to learn she had no ill intentions, then thought now I have to teach her that this is bad. She must have realized that she scared me, because the next time she walked beside me until I was even with her rump. Anyway... to date we have:
- We spent much time letting her decide to get onto the trailer. Now, even though she's not instantly at ease, she will get on it in 15 minutes or less (this is down from this initial 2.5 hours)
- She will eat treats from the seat of my F250 Diesel while the engine is running and could care less about vehicles. When I need to get something out of the truck, she even noses in to see if its a treat.
- We are taking dressage lessons weekly and she is proving to be much better than I am. So I am now starting lessons on a schoolmaster horse to improve my skills. Aside from a 15 minute ride by someone else (where she was very hot), I have been her only rider.
- According to her last owner she was ALWAYS riden with a tie down by him and her original owner. I refused to use one and discussed the rearing with my trainer. Based on her observations, she thinks that either Princess was riden with very heavy hands/bits or mechanical aids being used wrong. While Princess has pitched an attitude, she has not reared on me yet and she is learning to go in a more natural way now.
- We did a Parelli clinic where she actually stood around yawning a good deal of the time, and we continue to work using Parelli techniques.
- We went on a 4 hour trail ride where she crossed creeks no less than 10 times. At the first crossing, she refused (even after watching a horse cross), I tried again and she refused again, so I got down and she quietly walked beside me (didn't rush or run me over or anything). After that, all crossings were no problem. She lead for part of the trail, stood in the middle of a creek when I asked, and even lead over a creek.
Neither of us are any where near perfection and she has not become a total lamb in any sense. (Although, I've discovered that she doesn't tolerate temperatures in the mid 90's and is extremely quiet on those days.) But we are definitely on the way to having a good and fun partnership.
I think the biggest contributors to our progress is the time we spend together, keeping her training interesting and varied, and having a good trainer to work with us both. And most importantly, I ensure that I am always focused when working with her, since she still has the ability to sight the invislble horse eating monsters when I least expect it and provide spontaneous seat improvement sessions ;-)
But with this improvement, I can hardly wait until we've been working together for a year or two! I want to thank everyone for their encouragement and advice. I have a long way to go before I can say that I'm a good horseman and she has a long way to go (or may never be) a rock solid horse, but I'm happy as long as there is improvement being made and we are both healthy and content (for the most part).
I also have to admit that, even though I'm making great improvements, I wouldn't advise everyone to take on a similar challenge. I'm having as much fun on the ground as in the saddle, but there have been times where I considered how nice it would be to have that rock solid horse that I could just throw tack on and take off to exploring.
Anyway, thanks again
Kami |
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