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Discussion on Recovery EQ & Rapid Resonse | |
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Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 1:56 pm: Dr. O & members,As you may know, I have been trying to find a way to manage the pain factor in both my mares, Toy Moon & Stately Morn. I won't get into their details again in this post...this post is about these two products. I did a search here and found a couple of discussions, and hope I'm not going to open another 'can of worms' as I see one member was extremely rude to Dr.O in her posts... I hope this new discussion will shed more light on these products, as well as possibly help me and other members I am going to add another post about my mares, this one is simply to give Dr.O some more stuff read....Doc, we all know you just don't have enough material to read... but, seriously, I think this is important and certainly relevant to so many of our horsey problems. Here ya go...I copied this stuff directly from their web sites: RAPID RESPONSE: Any condition that involves bone, joint, muscle or soft tissue will be dramatically influenced by Rapid Response. 1. What's Happening with Rapid Response! 1) Stimulates the immune system - cleanses and rids the body of unwanted materials. 2) Boosts your internal healing powers - assists in the repair of damaged tissue. 3) Anti-Inflammatory - eases many sources of pain and irritation. 4) Antioxidant - protects against damage by free radicals and many toxins. 5) Balances and normalizes the Digestive System (and bowel movements). 6) Benefits all connective tissue—joints, vertebrae, tendons, stomach, intestines, lungs, and bone. 7) Keeps up with free radical damage going inside the membrane of your cells, protecting them. 8) Rapid Response has a special affinity for collagen and elastin which helps keep your skin youthful and vibrant. 9) Improves and enhances the 70,000 miles of tiny blood vessels in your circulatory system. 10) Guards the integrity of your veins and lymphatic vessels as well as your arteries. 11) Rapid Response's ingredients are known to support the nervous system, immune system, liver and the cardiovascular system. 12) Rapid Response has “bi-phasic” activity which means it can penetrate lipid cell membrane and carry its benefits into the interior of cells providing more complete cellular protection to the tissues and organs. Rapid Responses Glucosamines are… 1. a major building block of proteoglycans 2. needed to make glycosaminoglycans, proteins that bind water in the cartilage matrix 3. a source of nutrients for the synthesis of proteoglycans and glycosaminoglycans 4. a stimulant to chonDrOcytes 5. a key factor in determining how many proteoglycans are produced by the chonDrOcytes 6. needed to spur chonDrOcytes to produce more collagen and proteoglycans 7. a regulator of cartilage metabolism which helps to keep cartilage from breaking down More Good Stuff in Rapid Response. Vitamins A, C, E, B, B12, Choline, Folic Acid Amino Acids Rapid Response contain 7 of the 8 essential amino acids. Provides 20 of 22 amino acids required by humans. Minerals Rapid Response provides 9 essential minerals such as Calcium, Copper, Chromium, Magnesium, Iron, Potassium, Zinc, Sodium, Manganese. Phytonutrients Natural plant growth hormones, sterols and salicyates. Enzymes Provides 8 important enzymes Sugars Monosaccharides and Polysaccharides (long chain sugar molecules that are essential to the quality and efficacy of Rapid Response™®. INGREDIENTS: MUCOPOLYSACCHARIDES, MONOPOLYSACCHARIDES, PROTEIN POLYSACCHARIDES, GLUCOSE, OLIGOMERIC PROANTHROCYANIDINS, PROTEIN GLUCOSAMINES, LIPOGLUCOSAMINES, PAPIANE, CARBOHYDRATES DERIVED FROM INULIN PLANT SUGAR AND NATURALLY OCCURRING AMOUNTS OF MINERALS (MAGNESIUM, CALCIUM, AND POTASSIUM), VITAMINS A, D, AND E RECOVERY EQ: Significant anti-inflammatory benefits indicate Recovery® may be used to reduce inflammation and improve quality of post-trauma recovery. Athletic Performance, Aging, Arthritis , Bursitis, COPD, Dermatitis, Epiphysitis, Fasciitis, Injury, Laminitis, Muscle tension/spasms, Navicular, OCD - OsteochonDrOsis, Post-surgical recovery, Tendinitis and Wound healing The ability to decrease catabolism of cell structures associated with trauma and degenerative disease is what gives Recovery® a potentially broad-spectrum indication profile. Preliminary results observed by clinicians over the last 10 years warrant further research for treatment of chronic skin, respiratory, gastrointestinal and autoimmune conditions. Pathophysiology Degeneration, Trauma and Disease When oxygen is utilized by the body, damaging "exhaust" called reactive oxygen species (ROS) are released. ROS include hyDrOxyl radicals, superoxides, hypochlorite and hyDrOgen peroxide, to name a few. ROS, in smaller quantities, play necessary roles in metabolic processes, however, when ROS production increases and the ability to neutralize ROS decreases, the overall effect on tissues is destructive. (1-4) Increased cellular production of ROS are linked to most degenerative conditions including heart disease, arthritis, cancer, periodontal disease, liver disease, cataracts, macular degeneration, diabetes, gastrointestinal inflammatory diseases, autoimmune diseases and asthma. (5-7) ROS react with cellular components initiating destructive chain reactions that result in degeneration of tissue and disease causing potential inflammation and pain. (1,3) Antioxidants, such as Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), alpha lipoic acid and NADH (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide) and anti-catabolic enzymes, such as glutathione peroxidase, superoxide dismutase and catalase minimize the damaging effects of ROS. Researchers at Biomedica believe that younger healthy cells produce much larger quantities of these antioxidants and anti-catabolic enzymes. (3,5) Aging and disease results in diminished cellular production of the above stated protective compounds, which leads to increased damage to the membrane structures; inevitably, damage to membrane structures diminishes cellular ability to repair traumatized tissue. (1,7) Damage to membrane and extracellular matrix (ECM) structure leads to decreased ideal first-intention healing involving parenchymal elements. (8-10) This results in: Decreased production of long chain glycosaminoglycans with a compensatory increase in shorter chain glycosaminoglycans, which leads to dehydration of tissue and decreased membrane receptivity (9,11,12) Decreased cellular ability to receive growth factors (somatomedins, insulin, etc.), which are necessary for cellular repair, maintenance, protection and communication* (13-15,41) Deposition of heavily glycosylated, compact and inflexible collagen types V and VI (12,16-22) Increased granulomatous second intention healing involving stromal elements (i.e. development of scar tissue), which leads to loss of cellular/tissue function (9,42) Consequences: Loss of cellular and tissue function results in further inability to repair damage, leading to increased tendency to bruising, excessive inflammation, spasm, joint stiffness, digestive abnormalities, respiratory distress. (7,9,15,20,21,23,24) * Insulin normally acts as a shuttle to drive amino acids, glucose, fatty acids, glucosamine and other precursor biochemicals into the cell so that the cell may synthesize required structures for tissue repair. top Pharmacology What is Recovery®EQ? Recovery® is a functional food engineered to treat and prevent degeneration and inflammation at the “root”.).(43,44) The primary active ingredient in Recovery®EQ... Nutricol®, a potent proprietary bioflavonoid complex containing EGCG, proanthocyanidins, theaflavin and resveratrol extracted from grapes and green tea (de-caffeinated), is the primary active ingredient in Recovery®. Nutricol® reinforces membrane and matrix structure (halts damage that initiates inflammatory and spasmodic reactions) (26,27,31,45,46) Nutricol® increases membrane receptivity to hormones such as insulin, IGF and thyroxine (required for anabolic repair/healing) (13,14) Site of Action: Nutricol® embeds in the cell membrane and matrix (43,44,48) Cell Membranes and Extracellular Matrix (ECM) The significant water and fat soluble antioxidant actions of Nutricol® produce the following anti-catabolic and anti-inflammatory effects: 1. Reinforces membrane and matrix structures by decreasing the catabolism of aldimine reducible cross-linking present in collagen fibers; this acts to reinforce the strength and elasticity of connective tissue structures such as cartilage, synovium, ligaments, tendons, fascia, bone, blood vessel walls and the dermis of the skin (26,27) 2. Neutralizes reactive oxygen species (ROS) and catabolic enzymes before they can negatively impact cellular and extracellular structure and function; this results in increased membrane receptivity to growth factors such as insulin, somatomedins and thyroxin that are required for anabolic repair and cellular maintenance (4,10,13,28-30,35,49) 3. Decreases catabolism of membrane and matrix collagen and glycosaminoglycan (GAG) structures via decreasing the pathological production of catabolic enzymes and other biochemicals such as collagenase, elastase, hyaluronidase, tumor necrosis factor, nitric oxide synthase and xanthine oxidase*; these biochemicals are released from immune, microbial and damaged cells and cause further damage to connective and epithelial tissue structures, resulting in joint pain, inflammation, capillary fragility and other soft-tissue damage (4,25,31-35) 4. Stabilizes cell membranes, preventing the release of compounds that promote inflammation such as histamine, serine proteases, prostaglandins and leukotrienes by non-competitively inhibiting the release of associated inflammatory enzymes such as cyclo-oxygenase, lipoxygenase and phosphodiesterase (33,36) 5. Improve protective epithelial mucosal surface integrity (digestive, respiratory & genitourinary tract) (37-40) Cell Biostructure * Xanthine oxidase is an enzyme that is involved in the production of ROS - free radicals. (4,50) top Administration and Ingredient Profile Suggested use Introduce gradually over a two week period to a concentrated dose of ½ scoop per 300 lbs body weight. Mix with food. After 30 - 60 days it may be possible to reduce intake to ¼ scoop per 300lbs body weight. Primary Active Ingredient (/scoop = 26g/0.9oz = 2 tablespoons) Nutricol® (1,000 mg) a proprietary bioflavonoid complex - EGCG, proanthocyanidins, theaflavin and resveratrol extracted from Camellia sinensis and Vitis vinifera Secondary Ingredients trimethylglycine (TMG), glucosamine hyDrOchloride, methyl sulfonyl methane, vitamin C, natural vitamin E, magnesium absolutely no base fillers or additives top Side-effects and Precautions Allergies Recovery® contains hypoallergenic ingredients; however, the introduction of any new food or drug may result in an allergy. *Increasing the dose too rapidly may result in temporary loose stool, fatigue and hypersensitivity at previous trauma sites. top Summary By implementing Recovery® (a Biostructural® Medicine), healthcare professionals can safely and effectively manage inflammatory conditions, halt tissue damage and improve the quality and rate of healing. Recovery® is believed to decrease trauma (from disease, surgery and injury) by increasing the stability of the membrane and matrix and membrane receptivity growth factors. Recovery® use has produced significant results in treating trauma, inflammation, pain and poor healing. top Safely Combining with Drugs Due to its antioxidant, anti-inflammatory and anti-catabolic action, combining Recovery® with drugs can lead to reduced drug toxicity: Anti-inflammatory (NSAIDs/cox-2 inhibitors) Most conventional NSAIDs interfere with cyclo-oxygenase and prostaglandins. Cell damage still continues because: 1. Oxidation of membranes remains unblocked 2. With standard NSAIDs, the production of PG1 and PG3, normally involved in repair, are also blocked Recovery benefits alone or combined with NSAIDS include: 1. Inhibiting the inflammatory cascade or “domino effect” by increasing a cell’s ability to neutralize lysosomal enzymes and ROS released from neighboring damaged cells -reducing trauma. 2. Increasing delivery of certain hormones, neurochemicals and nutrients into the cell and enhancing waste transport out of the cell - improving cell communication. Studies have shown that the addition of ingredients in Recovery with Sulindac (NSAID) results in a synergistic effect on prevention of colon cancer in rats and a reduction in GI side-effects that accompany Sulindac usage (Ohishi et al. Cancer Lett 2002, 177(1):49-56) Corticosteroids Corticosteroids mimic cortisol, which reduces inflammation; however, corticosteroids inhibit immune response and ability to repair, predisposing individuals to risk of infection and accelerated rate of tissue breakdown. Excessive levels of nitric oxide synthase (NOS), an enzyme that produces nitric oxide, are involved in the initiation and progression of cancer and inflammation. Studies have shown higher levels of nitric oxide in various inflammatory bowel diseases, and that corticosteroids have no effect on reducing NOS. (N Leonard, et. al. J. Clin. Pathology: 1998, 51: (10) 750-753) Recovery® may compliment corticosteroids as it can normalize levels of NOS (Yu-Li Lin et.al. Molecular Parm: 1997 (52):465-472). Acetaminophen Recovery® ingredients reduce acetaminophen-induced kidney & liver toxicity (Res Commun Mol Pathol Pharmacol 2000; 107(1-2):137-66), (Ray S.D., Arch Biochem Biophys 1999 Sep 1; 369(1):42-58). Many cases have demonstrated Recovery® may be superior to acetaminophen for chronic pain relief. Recovery® decreases the need for acetaminophen Antibiotics 2 studies report anti-bacterial action was enhanced when Recovery® ingredients were combined with ampicillin/sulbactam, benzylpenicillin, oxacillin, methacillin, cephalexin (Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy, 2001, (48), 361-364), (Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy, 2001, 45, (6), 1737-1742). Anti-coagulants Over the last 5 years, Biomedica has made observations with several patients on warfarin and Recovery®. There were no changes in prothrombin time reported, nor any signs of increased bleeding. In vitro studies show no effect on thromboplastin times or prothrombin times. Recovery® may have anti-platelet activity related to normalizing excessive platelet adhesiveness. (Kang WS., Thromb Res 1999 Nov 1; 96(3):229-37) Amiodarone, Doxorubicin, Idarubicin, 4-HC The ingredients in Recovery® reduce organ and serum toxicity induced by these drugs (Bagchi D., Drugs Exp Clin Res 2001; 27(1): 3-15), (Res Commun Mol Pathol Pharmacol 2000; 107(1-2): 137-66) top Toxicology Recovery® has significant benefits with very low risk. All ingredients are thoroughly researched, naturally-occuring and non-toxic. Nutricol® constituents have been clinically observed to possess anticarcinogenic properties in the liver, lung, breast, pancreas, bladder, prostate, skin and most of the gastrointestinal system (Fujiki. (1999) J. Cancer Res Clin Oncol.125:589-97). Effects on Liver Function Due to anti-catabolic and anti-oxidative actions, Recovery® may aid in the proper elimination and metabolism of drugs and other toxins by supporting 4 Phase II liver pathways (glutathione conjugation, taurine conjugation, methylation, and sulfation). Dairy Mixing Nutricol® with milk (except yogurt) inhibits absorption. Allergies Recovery® contains hypoallergenic ingredients; however, the introduction of any new food or drug may result in an allergy. Nutricol® EGCG (epigallocatechin gallate) The LD50 in male rats is greater than 5,000 mg/kg and 3,090 mg/kg in female rats. The rats were Sprauge-Dawley rats (Yamane et al. (1995) Cancer 7:1662-7). Found to be non-toxic for Rodents and Humans (Fujiki et al. 1998). Procyanidolic oligomers, resveratrol The LD50* found to be greater than 5,000 mg/kg body weight in a single oral intubation to fasted male and female albino rats. (Bagchi et al. (2000) Toxicology 148:87-197) Glucosamine (2-amino-2-deoxy-alpha-D-glucose) No mortalities in mice or rats at very high levels. LD50 is greater than 5,000 mg/kg of body weight orally. (Pharmatherapeutica 1982; 3(3):157-68) Theoretically, long-term use of very high-doses of glucosamine may result in hyperglycemia. *Recovery has demonstrated hypoglycemic effects. Nutricol® increases membrane insulin sensitivity. Biomedica recommends that Recovery® is safe to administer to stable Type II diabetics. MSM (methyl sulfonyl methane) MSM has very low toxicity, with an LD50 in rats that exceeds 20,000 mg/kg body weight per day. In dogs, no toxicity was reported in a 30-day test receiving 3,000 mg/kg body weight per day, administered both orally and intravenously. There was a DrOp in hematocrit in the later stages of the high dose intravenous study that returned to normal post-treatment. (Metcalf, J.W. (1986) MSM status report, Eq. Vet. Data 7:332-334). TMG (trimethylglycine) Safety studies show TMG to be very safe, with an acute LD50 in rats of over 11,000 mg/kg body weight. (Life Science Research 1990). top What is Recovery | Success Stories | Where to Buy | Contact Us | Sitemap | Disclaimer Copyright ©2006 Biomedica Laboratories Inc. Site Design: Planet Grafix Recovery EQ what is recovery eq? what is recovery eq ha (hyaluronic acid)? how does recovery eq help? where to buy recovery eq contact biomedica labs horse owners the aging horse arthritis in horses athletic performance in horses copd (breathing problems) cushing's synDrOme dermatitis - horse coat conditions laminitis - founder navicular osteochonDrOsis tying up - muscle tension in horses horse wound healing - surgery veterinarians technical monograph of Recovery EQ the aging horse degenerative joint disease athletic performance copd (breathing problems) cushing's synDrOme dermatitis - coat conditions laminitis - founder navicular osteochonDrOsis tying up - muscle tension in horses horse wound healing - surgery OKIE-DOKIE.... now, Dr.O, can you give us (mesome more input on these products...for myself, i am now so desperate to help Toy Moon & Stately Morn, that I am very seriously thinking of spending money I don't have on one of these products (I am leaning towards the R-EQ) I also get the 'Horse Journal" and read the articles from their back issues section...I do have faith in the Horse Journal...as much as I do in you, Dr.O and our members here. I am also thinking about trying Adequan becuase it's IM and I can give the shots myself. I also would like to try cortizone injections. The rub for me is that when my vet nerve blocked the mares, both got badly swollen, and Toy Moon (my accident waiting to happen mare) also developed some sort of abcess behind her ankle that I have been pushing pus & blood out of for the last few days, since it finally got soft enough for me to do so)...so, I am scared to have my vet try and inject a joint again. Thanks and I'm sorry this post is so long, but it couldn't be helped. |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 2:01 pm: PS....I JUST NOTICED I TOOK UP MORE SPACE THAN NECESSARY BECAUSE I FORGOT TO DELETE THE WEB SITES NAVIGATION MENU FOR THE R-EQ INFORMATION... I'M SORRY 'BOUT THAT. |
Member: kthorse |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 2:13 pm: Hi I am doing my own study on recovery EQ. When I first put my horse on it was like a miracle, 100% improvement. I decided to see if it wasn't coincidence or some other factor that helped his improvement. He has been off 3 weeks. Though doing still well has started stumbling down the hills again. So next week I will start him up again and see what happens. I have to admit I was stunned at the beginning of use of this product. I just need to be 100%sure its the product thats helping before keep spending the money. |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 2:55 pm: katrina,Well I for one will be very interested in what happens when you put your horse back on the R-EQ. Please do post about it. Unless I get a lot of negative feedback from our members and Dr.O, I am beginning to think the R-EQ would be worth the money...I guess sometimes a product with claims like R-EQ has really IS a good product. I emailed both companies about each product, but have no yet gotten a reply....I'll post when I do. |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 3:10 pm: below I copied from a Horse Journal article about such products...it's from 2003, and wish they'd do an update on RR & R-EQ...this is just their 'bottom line' quote:Recovery was our favorite overall with respect to arthritis since, even at maintenance doses, it packs the same punch in terms of glucosamine and MSM as loading doses of other joint products. Its price at this level of use is comparable. On the other hand, Rapid Response is expensive. That said, it’s the best we found in conditions like ringbone that involve proliferation of bone. It’s also the only joint product we’ve used that gave good results with back pain. It also proved helpful with two fractures and severe, refractory OCD. EquuSea is a good alternative to NSAIDs for chronic inflammation. Use it alone or with glucosamine/chonDrOitin for more joint support. (end) And now I am frustrated because they state that RR may be better for back pain, and I think Stately Morn's problem stem more form her back (neck,shoulder,spine) than anything else... I swear, what's a gal to do!!!!! |
Member: dres |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 3:55 pm: '''EquuSea is a good alternative to NSAIDs for chronic inflammation. Use it alone or with glucosamine/chonDrOitin for more joint support.'''what is Equusea?? On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: dres |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 4:01 pm: https://www.coastsidebio.com/EquuSea_Detail.htmfound it.. so what is a sea chonDrOitin? And why would this be better then bute.. ?? On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 4:27 pm: Ann.... Got this off that web site you posted...Coastside's patented Sea ChonDrOitin® is processed from sea cucumbers harvested in the pristine waters off the Coast of Maine. Our natural Sea ChonDrOitin helps maintain an animal's healthy joint function throughout its life. (end) There is more of an explanation if you use their menu and click on "the Sea Cucumber' I noticed some posts that mentioned this EquuSea, so you may be able to get more answers if you type it into a search of the topics. I would try almost any product that the Horse Journal has tested, but my guess is that this EquuSea is most probably a great product for horses with a minimal amount of pain due to arthritus ect....unlike some of our horses that are really having a hard time. If you decide to try this stuff...let us know how it works!! |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 5:00 pm: Ann,I forgot to mention...in your post you wanted to know why EquuSea would be better than bute... DR.O, is needless to say, a better person to ask, but the folks that make the EquuSea claim it's better than Bute...but we sure don't even know just how good this stuff is...I assume it's better because you can't use Bute long term, too many side effects..ulcers ect...and if you are using Bute alot for your horse(s) may I recommend you switch to Naproxen...much safer & kinder than Bute...you can also look that up here on the forum via Dr.O's articles. Tah-Dah!!! |
Member: kamibroo |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 7:28 pm: Joanie,Your post caught my eye because I'd been looking at Rapid Response for a fracture issue. I have not tried it or the other product you posted. But some of your post is confusing. have you looked at the part of this website about treating arthritis? You wrote that you want to try Adequan and also cortizone. I think Adequan is a form of cortozone. My problem with these (if you can avoid them) is contained in your own post: >Corticosteroids > Corticosteroids mimic cortisol, which reduces > inflammation; however, corticosteroids inhibit > immune response and ability to repair, > predisposing individuals to risk of infection > and accelerated rate of tissue breakdown. You might look at hyaluronic acid as an alternative. HA can be in the joint, IM or fed orally. In some post on this board, a person said that their horse's back and shoulder responded well to HA. I have a horse with hock/back problems and he responded really well to IM HA shot, so I am putting him on oral HA since it will be a continuous thing and not go up/down like periodic shots would. It is possible that Rapid Resonse gets better results with back pain because it includes HA... hard to know since they don't provide a real ingredients list. The other thing is glucosamine and CS (a sub-set of glucosamine). I've had horses move more comfortably from this. I'm sure both products contain healthy doses of this. Both Glucosamine and HA have been studied and shown to provide benifits. If the products that you are looking at provide high amounts of just these two supplements, they may give a benifit. But its a benifit that you could probably get much cheaper. It is hard to tell, since neither product gives a real ingredients list. On the Equusea (or an CS product) vs Bute, my guess would be because it treats the source of the pain/inflamation by improving the joint condition. So avoids the need for the NASID. Good luck with your horse. I would also like to hear if anyone is having good response from these products that they can say for certain is related to the product. I am still debating the Rapid Response for a fracture. I have 'before' images, so if I do try it, I will post before and after images. } |
Member: dr3ssag3 |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 8:48 pm: Contessa has been on Recovery EQ for about a year and a half. When I started her on it, I was about to have to have her hocks re-injected after 6 months (we were trying to go a year). After about a solid month on it, I noticed she was tracking up much better than she was without it. I'd tried Nimble Ultra for a few months prior and saw no noticeable result. I never have taken her off of the product, and was able to go the full year until her next injections.I'm wondering if the Recovery EQ with HA is worth the significant price increase. Does HA taken orally do anything? |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 11:01 pm: Why is your horse in pain Joanie?DrO |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 7:12 am: Dawn,DrO posted a study awhile back about oral HA and the results were good in that study. I've personally found that the addition of HA to a gluc/chon product makes a very positive difference. |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 10:48 am: USHO....I guess I don't know what is in the Adequan, so I need to see the ingredients and I am going to read Dr.O's article on the HA again...since I have been researching all this, I am now of the mind that the HA is really what my mares may need, along with something that will ease any pain they are in...I emailed the folks that make the EquuSea and she replied to me this morning...I also was interested in their dog products as one of our dogs had stifle surgery a few years ago and hasn't been the same since...long story, but the folks at EquuSea will be mailing me a trial supply of their canine stuff and also a bucket of the equine stuff...and I'll be sure to post back here about any results I see (or don't see). My head is spinning with all this research to find something that works that I can afford...money is a huge issue for me, and that makes helping my mares all the harder. I beleive what I'll do is start off with IM HA and see how that works, before I order the Recovery EQ....after reading a lot of info, I think the Recovery EQ may be a better product for my mares...but, ya gotta start someplace, so it'll probably be with the HA. Sorry if my post was confusing, ISHO....fact is, all of this supplement stuff can really get you confused!! |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 11:18 am: Dr.O,As I mentioned in another post, my head is spinning with all this information, reading ect to find something to help the mares... Why are they in pain? Toy Moon has arthritus...both hocks & one front knee. Stately Morn is a mystery as we still have not located her source of pain. I have mentioned before, that where I live we have few vets and no specialists. My vet has no fancy machines to use. All he has is an ultra sound machine. So, my resources are very limited. A couple of years ago we xrayed Toy Moon...she showed arthritus in her hocks and that one knee...at the time the hocks we nowhere near fusing. The front knee is on her 'bad luck leg'...everything seems to happen to that leg!! Not only does hse have the arthritus in the knee (she had corrective knee surgey as a yearling) but she had an abcess in that foot that took over a year to heal up, she somehow managed to get a bad cut on that ankle last summer, and that was not the first time she cut that ankle, and now she is healing up some sort of abcess that came thru her skin in the back of that ankle shortly after she was injected with a nerve block...no hair on this thing, it started off hard and as soon as it softened up I was able to start pushing out pus & blood...it's getting better. I also had her on naxell antibiotic. Her ankle is still a little swollen from this complication....in fact, Doc, after the nerve block both mares had swollen legs...Toy's in the one front ankle that was nerve blocked, and Stately Morn in both front legs as we nerve blocked both her ankles. Banamine, hosing & linement... Stately Morn's swelling is completely gone, but Toy still has some swelling due to that sore that popped up. Stately Morn shows a bit of improovement since the nerve block...she is walking with a longer stride and seems a bit more comfortable, but she still walks with small easy steps, has a hard time turning herself and when she stands she bends one front leg at the knee and will sort of rest on her toe. Toy is always lame. I think once this sore she developed after the nerve black completely heals and the swelling goes away, she'll walk a little better...when she stands, she puts one hind leg foward under her body. Some days she walks pretty good, other days she won't even leave the corral. Stately Morn seems to have back issues, as both my vet & farrier determine that, and she has casted herself several times and I beleive she injured herself in doing that. Her xrays show everything within her front legs & feet to be normal... so, without being able to pursue any extreme measures to find a source of pain, I am looking for somehting that will simply keep both mares comfortable...nothing will 'cure' their ailments at this stage, but I would like to see both of them walking like a normal horse...both are retired, so all they do is hang out. I am leaning towards trying the IM Adequan, or maybe you know of another HA product to use...but I think the Adequan would be a good start, and since HA seems to help back problems, it may be a good all around product for me to try. I look foward to your reply, Dr.O...thank you very much. PS...niether mare ever has any swelling in their joints and very little heat. |
New Member: kamib |
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 2:37 pm: Joanie,HYALURONIC ACID injections would be called by brand names like: MapV (Map5?), Legend (most expensive), etc. My vet has an HA injectable that is only $35. If you want to go this route, use the term "hyaluronic acid" NOT "Adequan" with your vet. The effects of HA injection are not long term (they were only 15 days in my actively training race horse). That is why, once I saw that HA helps, I switched to oral HA. I looked at Recovery EQ closer. They do post a list of active ingredients and assuming that the $99/kilo is a months supply, the pricing is not too bad for the amounts of glucosamine/MSM/HA that you get as a horse product. You might also consider going to walmart/kmart/sams-club and compare the same dosages from human supplements to see if it is cheaper that way (but use a decent brand like NatureValley). In the Recovery EQ - HA, each scoop has 100mg of hyaluronic acid - HA (sodium hyaluronate) 10,000mg glucosamine 10,000mg MSM + some other stuff ADEQUAN is a brand name for a cortisoid/cortizone, it is not HA and might hurt more than help in the long run (my personal, non-professional belief). BUT the effects of Adequan }are much longer term than HA, so I think that is why everyone uses it. (I still will not use it except as a last resort.) |
Member: dres |
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 4:29 pm: Kami, please explain why you feel Adequan will hurt the horse???On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 7:18 pm: Kami, you have Adequan incorrectly identified. It is PSGAG and you can read more about this at, Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Adequan, use in Arthritis. We should also note that steroids, if used properly, can be one of the most helpful drugs we have against acute inflammatory episodes and can slow the progress.Martha, start with the article Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Arthritis and DJD: An Overview. It provides an overview of the drugs that helpful for arthritis. Then it has links to each of the specific drugs so you can learn about each in detail. DrO |
Member: kamibroo |
Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 11:11 pm: Dr O. You're right. I've got my wires crossed.Ann, Even with my confusion above and after refreshing myself on Adequan, I still do not see it as something to use except as a last resort. This is because I am dealling with young horses (under 10, many under 7) who have permanent damages (founder, back injuries, arthritis, etc) so need long term pain management. As a rule I avoid any joint injections because of increased risks and expense. The working horses that I know of that get joint injections seem to need them more and more frequently. I'll admit that I don't know WHAT they are injecting, but they tend to go from 1-2/yr to quarterly to monthly. So that doesn't give me the impression that it is very effective as a long term approach, even when it used as a joint injection. Adequan as an IM has been shown nearly useless (my interpretation) in at least one study ( https://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1255551 ). I also had a DVM make the comment "he's been kept going on Adequan for too long" when we were reviewing radiographs and trying to figure out a treatment plan for an arthritis case. I took the comment at face value, but it might have been just a bad choice of words on his part. He explained that the Adequan deadens the pain (so the horse can work beyond what it should) and interfer's with the joint healing process. This is probably why I got I confused with cortisoids. On doing research, it doesn't seem like that is the case. So I was wrong on that point. Most recently I had a racing TB in training that the trainer wanted to inject the hocks with Adequan because that is what the trainer always did. I convinced him to try HA IM and the results were perfectly fine, with the added benifit of better movement in the back (something that wouldn't have been affected by a hock injection). So the trainer agreed to go to oral HA and the horse is doing well. That horse was already on -and had shown improvement from- glucosamine at the time. So I appologize for my confusion. But for me its still a last resort. So far, I've been lucky and able to manage pain with less invasive approaches(e.g. different trimming, managed exercise, glucosamine, HA) and have been able to avoid NSAIDs and joint injections. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 8:08 am: Kami,Our article supports your conclusions on the IM use of Adequan and concur that the IA use is expensive for the small benefits it derives. For some this is worthwhile for many hard to justify. While there is no doubt these medications can be abused and have a net negative result on the horse, there is also no doubt that proper use of these medications can make your horses more comfortable and can slow down the progress of arthritis. Concerning the case of IA steroids and adverse reactions, a review of tens of thousands of such injections it is clear that the benefit of careful use far outweighs the chance of a serious adverse reaction. I have never had one, knock on wood. Our articles on these subjects tries to explain the difference between use and abuse, particularly with respect to using these drugs to keep a horse working versus successfully managing arthritis. DrO |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 2:22 pm: Dr.O and gals...Dr.O, I replied to your question to me about why my mares are in pain...but you have not replied directly to it as yet... meantime, I have read thru all these posts again and went back to see about the Adequan...and I have a really dumb question... DOES Adequan (IM) have any cortizone (steroids) in it's formula? I've been researching a way to help my mares with their pain so much that my head is spinning... Dr.O, I realize without actually seeing my mares, you can't tell me what to do...that's up to me & my vet...but, since all I want is to help their pain go away, and in that, would like to resort to using Banamine/Naproxen/Bute only for extreme circumstances...what I am dealing with, as mentioned before, is arthritus, knee, hocks, and a back/shoulder/neck problem that seems to manifest itself in the front legs/feet... watching both mares right now from the house, and both happen to be heading back into the corral...Stately Morn is walking pretty darn good, slow, but her stride is longer than usual...Toy Moon isn't limping as much as she has been, but I assume that is because I gave her some naxel antibiotic on Tues for that sore she developed after her nerve block, so maybe that ankle doesn't feel so painful now...the sore looks better and this morning I had a hard time getting anymore pus/blood from it... So, the bottom line for me is to stop the pain. In your opinion, Doc, will using the Adequan IM (then if it works, switch to oral) help relieve the pain in both Toy Moon's joints and in Stately Morn's back/neck/shoulders? Would I also include either IM or oral HA? And, would adding the Recovery EQ benefit each also? THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!! |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 2:51 pm: PS...Dr.O, you mentioned in your post to Kami that your articles SUPPORTS her theory that IM Adequan is useless? Now I am really at wits end...is this stuff good or not? I'm getting a headache |
Member: dres |
Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 3:19 pm: Joanie, i have a headache too.. I think that we can only judge by what our individual horses tell us.. I used Legend on my two performance horses, both have soreness issues.. joint / hoof.. in the first 6 months i felt a difference in their way of go...but soon after then nothing.. I put them on orals.. do i feel a difference.. not really but they are NO worse either.. I use a higher dose as my horses are rather large.. On another mare that is just getting back to work after being off in pasture with a shoulder issue.. I had her shoulder injected then started her on the loading dose of Adequan and now am giving her the Adequan every 3 weeks.. + she is on the orals as well.. I have to say she is sound and going very nicely.. So I think its an individual horse feel..Is you headache worse now..? On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 3:48 pm: Ann,Where's the Excedrin Sounds like maybe your mare with the shoulder issue is doing well on the Adequan...I assume you are doing it IM? What orals do you use for her? And, could you please tell me what you injected her shoulder with and where did you inject it? When I asked my vet about injecting Stately Morn's shoulder, he said he'd have to read up on just where to place the needle...which is kinda scary...help!!! Thanks, Ann |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 6:29 pm: Joanie,I wish I could tell you exactly what would cure your horse's pain but all I can honestly do is educate you about the pros and cons of each of the various therapies available for arthritis. The decision to use these products must be yours based on the information I provide, your goals, and resources. All your questions on what to expect with each of the recommended therapies for arthritis and the value of Adequan are answered in the articles I reference on May 31st above and in far more detail than I can repeat here. The easiest way for you to approach this might be to make a simple list of our recommendations and then find products that have the recommended ingredients. Remember that medications are just one part of the arthritis equation, you must look at this in a holistic sense, managing exercise, rest, and weight. This too is explained in the overview article on Arthritis. DrO |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 9:43 am: I wish you could too, Dr.O.I'm doing what you pretty much suggested...making a list and narrowing it down...on Monday I'll consult with my vet and go from there...I've read the articles several times, and now I am taking notes as it can get darn confusing trying to remember all the information. As far as the holistic part of this, managing the mares exercise, weight & rest is easy...remember Doc, these are retired broodmares, ages 14 & 16, so they take good care of themselves as far as moving around...and they do lay down a lot, so get plenty of rest, hahaha..and being Thoroughbreds, managing their weight is also easy...they both happen to be in excellent condition & are shiny & you can see dapples on the bay mare. Thanks so much, Dr.O. I'll post back as to what I decide to do. |