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Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 270
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 23, 2007 - 11:47 am: |   |
Does anyone know where I can get info on a new drug that is being used on horses with ocd?
I have seen mention of it, somewhere, and as usual didn't pay much attention, and am now trying to find where I read about it, with no luck.
I dont think I dreamed this, but now am starting to wonder.
Any help is much appreciated.
Thank you,
Chris |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 1024
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 23, 2007 - 3:53 pm: | |
Hi Chris, I have a post above about equioxx, with a link, I am wondering if this is what you are thinking of? I asked Dr.O.s opinion on it but haven't heard back yet. The post is under new arthritis treatment. |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 271
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 11:19 pm: | |
Thanks Dianne, my vet showed me some literature on the Equioxx the other day. It does sound promising.
The new medication I remember reading about was more of one to prevent or reverse early ocd in young horses, I think anyway, I remember telling myself to get back to the article, but didn't and now wishing I had. I have been on the run all weekend, but can now search a little more myself, it may have been 'the horse' where I saw it- will check out the webpage you recommended in your post on Eqiouxx.
Thanks again,
Chris |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 272
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 10:04 am: | |
Whew- found it, late last night. Guess this is considered a supplement and not a drug.
http://ocdequine.com
I have a 3 month old colt which is growing very fast. I noticed last week his back ankles are starting to get the 'hour glass' look and was thinking of starting him and his dam on this- DrO what do you think?
If anyone has tried this supplement, would like to hear your thoughts also.
Thanks,
Chris |
Zoe Williams
Member
Username: fahren
Post Number: 62
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 10:05 am: | |
was it ocd equine pellets? I have tried them on my horses and think I like the results but have yet to x-ray their legs again to see for sure. I believe it is www.ocdequine.com
Zoe |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18741
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 10:48 am: | |
Diane we have a new article up on EQUIOXX at Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (Nsaids, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » EQUIOXX (firocoxib).
Chris on a quick review of this product it looks like nothing special. All equine foodstuffs contain amino acids which are the building block of proteins. It contains some nutraceuticals routinely used in arthritis that you can read about in the overview article on arthritis.
You can read more about silicone and bone disease in the article on Minerals in the Nutrition topic.
DrO |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 273
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 11:58 am: | |
Zoe- that's it- we must have been posting at the same time, thank you for your comments.
Thank you too DrO- the ocd pellets are quite pricey, hopefully will have the time to compare this with other supplements and will go from there.
I am quite worried for the mare. She is 17, was my first foal, I was such a greenhorn back then and was way overfeeding her dam to have a nice healthy foal, she developed epthysitis at 4 months and had to be weaned. During this last pregnancy, this mare has developed lumps on her hocks and ankles which I believe to be ocd. I have cut back on grain (Nutrena, Safechoice), alfalfa and am feeding more coastal hay that I had tested last year (it is 8% protein)which is probably good considering the situation. They are on constant turnout with decent grass which is buffaloe and blue gramma- short but potent grass. Poor mare is thin while the colt is huge. I know I should probably wean the foal, but at 3 months I just hate to- I am one that likes to wean at minumum of 4-6 months, as long as the mares are holding up, which this mare is going downhill fast- I have cut back on everything (except turnout) to the point I feel I'm starving the poor mare, while to colt continues to grow like a weed.
DrO, am wondering- if I wean the colt and leave him with another mare and foal, the other mare may let him nurse- will her milk (she never has any epithysitis foals) be better for him? I am thinking along the lines that his dams milk is just too rich-probably 'out there' with these thoughts- so please forgive my stupid questions. I worry about the foals psychy- would hate to leave him all alone and dont have other horses I'd feel good about putting him with besides the mare and foal he pastures with now.
Thanks so much,
Chris |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18745
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 7:37 am: | |
Chris, it is very, very unlikely your mare has developed symptoms of OCD at 17 years of age. And lumps on the joint is neither a good way to diagnose OCD nor are they a good way to decide what to feed.
The mares body condition is how you make the decision on what to feed and since she is thin I do not think cutting the mares rations sensible, at least from the information provided here.
You might try looking at our diagrams of lumps and bumps on horses and by matching the location diagnose what you are looking at ( Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses), otherwise posting good quality images should help out.
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2933
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 6:25 pm: | |
Hi Chris, Have you considered having your mare checked for arthritis? At her age it could be a possibility. |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 274
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 27, 2007 - 10:26 am: | |
Thanks DrO- been reading until my head spins- My assumptions always get me in trouble- I have been assuming since she was an epythisitis horse herself, all of her lumps and bumps must be nutrition based . I have no trouble with my other mares on the feeding program I am using- I just assumed she was not utilizing the feed in the same way.
Sara, arthritis has sure crossed my mind. Was hoping to take Mito (mare) and her son, Jack, to the vet today, but they are unavailable, will take them tomorrow.
Will try to take some pics and get them posted this afternoon, not very computer literate so keep fingers crossed.
Thanks for taking the time to post.
Chris |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 275
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2007 - 1:48 pm: | |
DrO, took mare and foal to my vet this morning. He is stumped, has never seen anything like what is going on with this mare. He is anxious to see what you have to say.
I have tried to upload pics but keep getting an error-the file is too big- ,my camera is set on e-mail quality which should make it smaller, but is still not working.
Any suggestions? I could email pics to you or someone else that is smarter than me at this, maybe then could reduce them enough to be posted.
Thanks,
Chris |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 276
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2007 - 3:36 pm: | |
I have read the posts on uploading. My pics show to be in the 15KB range. Why do they keep coming up too big? They wont load one at a time even.
I have downloaded the google picaso program, but cant figure out how to get my pics to it.
I cant make the pics any smaller on the camera and cant figure out how to resize them on the computer.
The pics upload ok, until I press the preview/post this message button.
Needless to say, am getting awfully frustrated here 
Thanks for any advise,
Chris |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 277
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 12:46 am: | |
My sister in law resized this for me. She is resizing a few more- will get them on tomorrow. This is Mito's right hind leg.
The last 2 weeks the bumps have grown immensely- they feel like bone, she has developed fluid type swelling in her back hocks in the last couple of days.
The vet today did draw blood from mare and foal. Results may be back by tomorrow afternoon.
The pics I will send tomorrow are worse, I feel like such a terrible horse owner, all I have tried to do on my own, obviously is not working.
Thanks DrO,
Chris |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18759
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 9:25 am: | |
Chris, have you reviewed the article on swellings referenced above? It contains extensive information on evaluating swellings and after review, it may help on asking questions of your veterinarian. I am sure the veterinarian had more to say than in your post above and the article explains those things.
Concerning the image problem, 15k should be no problem, the program allows to 64k. Have you carefully checked the location of the images on your computer and are they in a gif or jpeg format?
DrO |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18760
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 9:42 am: | |
Wow Chris, I see what your vet means, that is quite an unusual site.
- Are there any other signs beside the swelling on careful exam? Or at the very least are the vital signs normal?
- Is the swelling effecting more than one leg and is it growing symmetrically?
- Is the horse lame?
I can't wait to see the lab results. If the lab and clinical exam don't provide a diagnosis I would:
Radiograph several of the swellings as this will provide information about its origin, density, general growth characteristics.
If it is bone I would carefully evaluate this horses diet: specifically vitamin D, calcium, phosphorus.
If I diagnosis remains uncertain biopsy of the swelling will probably clear it up.
DrO |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 278
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 10:29 am: | |
DrO, am waiting on sil to resize several more and send back to me. The swelling and bumps are on all legs, this pic above is not as bad as it gets on the other legs.
Horse is not lame at all, she eats well, but is getting very thin, since colt is growing so fast I have had to cut back on feed, she suffers and he just keeps growing.
I just phoned my sil, she's not there- am trying to figure out how to resize on my own with no luck, think I must confusing resolution with actual size of pic? I can get to the 'paint' area, but have found no way to resize Wish I had nothing better to do and could stay at computer till I get it figured out.
Sorry to be so illiterate at this stuff.
Chris
Vet yesterday did not check vitals, but did take blood samples from mare and foal. He mentioned the cal/phos, and vit d. How can a horse that is out in the sun all day be vit d deficient? I know, I know, its off to read I go- wishing I was a speed reader too. |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 279
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 11:02 am: | |
Ok hopefully have this semi figured out.
First pic- Mito's front legs.
Mito's hind leg- showing swelling in hocks- is fluid, not hard like other bumps.
Pic of foal- showing epythisitis in back ankles.
Pic of front legs, back view
Pic of foal and dam- he is 3 months and a couple of weeks- he is huge! You can see how thin mare is getting, poor girl.
Thanks DrO.,
Chris |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1360
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
All i can say is WOW... it looks painful.. ? Your colt is huge as well unless your mare is only 14 hhs tall What is in your water? Sorry that was suppose to be a joke...
I hope your vets and Dr.O get to the bottom of this ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 280
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 2:39 pm: | |
Thanks Ann, I hope so too.
She has never seemed in pain, wish they could talk. I have been giving her bute this last week, mainly cause it looks like it would have to hurt.- it pains me to look at her.
Mito is 14'3- the man holding her (a neighbor) is very short- head shorter than me, I'm 5'9".
Jack was born big on March 19th- here's a pic of him a little over 24 hours old-
this one was taken May 10th-
I'm thankful he is a gentle giant and doesn't mind being handled.
Chris |
Lee
Member
Username: paul303
Post Number: 925
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 10:32 pm: | |
Chris....my jaw is on the floor...wishing you all the luck in the world...my goodness...do her joints flex OK? Gee, it almost looks like a lymphatic problem. Was everything normal when she was carrying her ( very big, very beautiful ) foal? |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 281
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 - 12:32 am: | |
Lee, thanks for your well wishes. She walks around normal, had her hoofs trimmed last week and farrier had no problem with her standing on 3 legs. She started getting the bumps or lumps about midway thru the pregnancy.
DrO, I have the chem panel results. I scanned them to my documents, tried to upload here but they are way too big. I can type them out- do you need the reference ranges too? I have not discussed them with my vet here, he faxed them to me, will call him in the morning to see what he thinks. Am anxious for you to see them.
Chris |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18765
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 - 6:12 am: | |
Chris,
Yes numbers, units, and reference ranges would be good.
How is the nutritional review, radiography and biopsy plans going? Without signs of infection, and with others on exactly the same nutritional program, this strikes me as cancer but I have never seen a case that had so many and so widespread and so symmetrical an appearance: the way it runs up the splint bones is down right eerie.
DrO |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 282
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 - 11:03 am: | |
Here are the results- vet here didn't see anything too out of range- protein serum is a little low on colt but nothing else was mentioned.
Well shoot- I had these all lined out, when I previewed post, everything came together- I put commas between the result and range to make it easier to read- hopefully.
Colt- Jack
Test Results Ref/Range
Total Serum Protein 5.583, 6.1-7.4 g/dl
Albumin 3.46, 3-3.7 g/dl
Calcium,serum 12.74, 11.2-13 mg/dl
Phosphorus,serum 5.54, 2.3-4.4 mg/dl
Glucose 122.8, 75-117 mg/dl
BUN 14.81, 9-20 mg/dl
Creatinine 1.554, 0.9-1.7 mg/dl
Total bilirubin 0.86, 0.7-2.6 mg/dl
Direct bilirubin 0.3, <0.3 mg/dl
ALP 564.5, 75-220 U/I
CK 524.2, 93-348 U/I
ASR(SGOT) 311, 199-413 U/I
Globulins 2.1, 2.7-4 g/dl
A/G Ratio 1.63, 0.6-1.2
GGT 13.6, 8-33 U/I
Mare- Mito
Test Results Ref/Range
Total Serum Protein 7.506, 6.1-7.4 g/dl
Albumin 3.26, 3-3.7 g/dl
Calcium, serum 12.21, 11.2-13 mg/dl
Phosphorus,serum 3.41, 2.3-4.4 mg/dl
Glucose 91.6, 75-117 mg/dl
BUN 18.34, 9-20 mg/dl
Creatinine 0.966, 0.9-1.7 mg/dl
Total bilirubin 0.61, 0.7-2.6 mg/dl
Direct bilirubin 0.2, <0.3 mg/dl
ALP 227.3, 75-220 U/I
CK 109.7, 93-348 U/I
AST (SGOT) 245, 199-413 U/I
Globulins 4.2, 2.7-4 g/dl
A/G Ratio 0.77, 0.6-1.2
GGT 20.3, 8-33 U/I
Cancer never entered my mind as the bumps are so very hard- Dr. Benson said this morning it could do that.
Plans are to have a biopsy done on mare next Wednesday, do you think we need x-rays too?
Thanks DrO,
Chris |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18771
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 1, 2007 - 9:53 am: | |
A biopsy alone should do it as a diagnosis Chris, but some diseases have distinctive radiographic features making a tenitive diagnosis possible. The bone cancers cause hard swellings. Labs look pretty unremarkable the mild elevations in enzymes in the colt are not that unusual.
DrO |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 283
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 3, 2007 - 1:00 pm: | |
Thanks, DrO, will let you know results of biopsy. |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 284
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 5, 2007 - 8:23 pm: | |
DrO, I have a diagnosis- Hypertrophic Pulmonary Osteoarthropathy. My local vet took a couple of x-rays that were inconclusive, he then gave me two diseases he thought it could be- the other being Hereditary Multiple Exostosis.
I then took mare to my repro vet, who did diagnos, he has seen several cases of it- it is very rare. Not knowing what causes it (15 speculative causes are mentioned), he took more blood to check for any infection. Blood work showed some fibrosis (?- think that is the correct word) and prescribed antibiotics and I am to bring her back in 3 weeks. We will go from there.
Your thoughts would be much appreciated and thanks so much for your help thus far.
Chris |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18793
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 8:44 am: | |
Hello Chris,
If the swellings are bony proliferation I think HPO fits the images above pretty well. This is a rare and poorly understood secondary manifestation of a primary disease usually in the chest (thorax).
Often this primary disease is a space occupying mass like an abscess or a cancer and the HPO is treated by treating the primary problem and that is where the prognosis derives from. So now efforts must concentrate on what might be wrong in the horses chest and what can be done for it. In the lack of further information, antibiotics are a logical choice but I would choose a regimen likely to be effective against abscesses. See the article on Bastard Strangles or Rhodococcus for suggestions.
Equine Vet J. 1996 Jul;28(4):256-62.
Hypertrophic osteopathy (Marie's disease) in Equidae: a review of twenty-four cases.
Mair TS, Dyson SJ, Fraser JA, Edwards GB, Hillyer MH, Love S.
Bell Equine Veterinary Clinic, Maidstone, Kent, UK.
The case records of 23 horses and one donkey affected by hypertrophic osteopathy (HO) (Marie's disease) were reviewed. All affected animals presented with limb swellings, which were bilaterally symmetrical and usually involved both fore- and hindlimbs. Associated signs included stiffness/lameness and weight loss. Radiological features included periosteal new bone formation over the diaphyses and metaphyses of affected bones. The metacarpal and metatarsal bones were most frequently affected. Articular surfaces remained free of disease. Seventeen animals were destroyed on humane grounds, 3 horses recovered after successful treatment of the primary disease, 3 horses recovered after symptomatic treatment and one horse was lost to follow-up. Significant primary diseases that were believed to predispose to HO were identified (pre- or post mortem) in 14 cases. In each of these cases, an intrathoracic disease was identified, although co-existing extrathoracic disease was present in 3 cases. Granulomatous inflammatory lesions were present in 9 of these 14 cases. In 4 horses, which underwent necropsy examination, no significant underlying disease was identified. |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 285
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 11:21 am: | |
Thanks DrO., yesterday Dr Veneklausen asked what antibiotic I preferred, and I chose tribresserin which is a TMB/SMB- after reading the article on bastard strangles I may not have made the right choice. This mare is very needle shy and I think giving her shots everyday would lead to a war- I know it would- I barely get by with giving her her yearly vaccines.
I dont think DrV is very optimistic about the outcome of this mare is why he let me choose the antibiotic- I have printed your post and will take to my local vet and discuss this with him.
I weaned her colt yesterday, mainly to get her weight back up without escalating the epithysitis on the foal- they woke me up many times last nite crying for each other. The vets yesterday said wean for the mare, they didn't see the colts epythisitis as being too far advanced to be weaning for the foal. Now am thinking she would be happier with her foal- sometimes I hate being the boss- this is one of those times.
Chris |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 475
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 11:38 am: | |
Hi Chris
I just wanted to say I'm so sorry to hear of the situation you are in with your mare and foal, and wish you all the best. |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 1:45 pm: | |
Oh Chris, you must be having a very terrible time with all these choices between bad and worse. I'm very sorry to hear about your mare.
It doesn't work for everyone, but I have found that "fenceline weaning" nearly eliminates the crying. I put the foal with a buddy across a safe, high fence from the mare, so everyone can see each other, but the baby can't nurse. That has really helped their stress and mine.
Interestingly this is an increasingly common practice with beef ranchers, who have done studies to show it reduces stress-related weight loss in the weaning calves. It's all about the burgers! |
Chris Doyle
Member
Username: christel
Post Number: 286
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 9:16 pm: | |
Thanks LL and Elizabeth, appreciate your kind words.
Mito and Jack can see each other, but cant touch.
Mito finally got off the fence line earlier today and headed out in pasture to graze, she seems much better, so will keep with the plan. Jack has calmed down too, he is with another mare and foal, the mare at first was pinning her ears at him but is ok with him now. The 3 of them are grazing peacefully at the moment. I figure he has been thru the worst part, wouldn't want to have to do that again.
When I go to his pasture he comes running, which is pretty neat.
Elizabeth that is interesting about the cattle, I figured they'd tear a good fence down in that situation. |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 7, 2007 - 12:01 am: | |
Hi Chris,
The study didn't say, but I assume from my own time with range cattle that it's either a steel pipe fence, or hot enough to curl your teeth!
Good luck and a quiet night to all of you.
- Elizabeth |
rtrotter
Member
Username: rtrotter
Post Number: 271
Registered: 4-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 5:33 pm: | |
Chris,
I just read this thread, can you update with what happened with your mare and how your foal turned out?
This was a curious case and I am interested in the outcome.
Rachelle |
