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ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 428
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 11:24 am: |   |
Dr. O , I have read your articles on the IV Legend, I am unclear how this goes to work on the joints.. does it help the horse produce his own ''lub'' for the joints or does it go directly to the joints once injected..
thanks for putting it in simple terms...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted the good ones!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 11355
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 1:41 pm: | |
We really don't know Ann how the IV product might differ in actions as the IA administration and the methods of action outlined in the article.
While studies have measured improvement in performance and clinical signs of arthritic horses using Legend IV, little study on how it works when given IV has been done. Everyone feels you get a better effect when given directly in the joint but there is the increased risk of infection and the much greater expense associated with administering a medication IA which makes the IV product desirable. Basically you give it IV until you do not get the desired response then resort to IA.
DrO |
ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 429
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 8:08 pm: | |
hum... well that being said, I did notice an improvement in my horse.. he was given the IV Legend shot on Monday, I rode him Thursday and an intense lesson on Friday.. a huge difference OVERALL.. he has not been bobbing lame, but does become ''sensitive'' post 4 weeks of shoeing..change his shoes he moves out fine again.. what I did notice this week is the fluid movement in the shoulders..? Could he have been locked up from tender toes? Now that they are not 'as' tender and the shot effected ALL joints that the shoulders became unlocked.. ? I guess I should not try to understand the WHYS,.. and just be happy with the results.. and yes, I am doing this to try to keep him from having to have the coffin joint injections repeated...
thanks for the quick and honest response .. Ann
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted the good ones! |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 240
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 9:16 pm: | |
Ann,
Just comparing some notes here. My gelding has an IV injection of Map 5, which is Hyaluronic Acid, about every 2 months. It takes about 2 days for it to "kick" in and I do notice a difference. I also like the fact that it permeates all the joints. I can also relate to the sore toes causing some shoulder stiffness. In my case I am trying to prolong the hock injections.
A question I have is was the shot given around the same time as a shoe reset?
Thanks Ann 
Susan B. |
ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 430
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 10:32 pm: | |
Susan, he was shod two weeks ago.. so not really, I have him done every 4 weeks like clock work.. don't want him to become sore.. this ''fluidity'' that I feel in the shoulders is different then after shoeing / angles being righted.. he is more flexible over all.. a lovely feeling...when I say he becomes ''sensitive'' on his front hoofs.. I liken it trotting on egg shells and not wanting to break them.. no bob, just careful.. that's a better word.. careful..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted the good ones!
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Jo Beasley
Member
Username: Beasley
Post Number: 37
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 11:24 pm: | |
I was very glad to see the mention of Map 5 here by Susan. I have not been able to find much discussion on it and was wondering what experience others have had with it. My 7 yr. old AQHA needs hock help about every 6 to 8 months and I am very concerned about injecting the hocks so often to keep him comfortable and performing at a reasonable level. I saw another horse get the Map 5 for a hock problem. Is this something that can be substituted for the hock injection of hyaluronic acid?
Please excuse me for the deviation from Legend.
Thanks. JO |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 241
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 - 1:54 am: | |
Thanks Ann,
I guess you are able to say that the Legend is making a difference and not just the therapuetic shoeing.
Jo,
I ran a search on this site with the keyword Map5 and came up with two discussions. In one of them I made reference to Map5.
Just to clarify, my gelding has the IV method and not the hock injected with Map5.
Hope this helps
Susan B. |
ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 431
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 - 10:48 am: | |
Susan, yes I think with the nature of the problems this horse has that corrective shoeing will be a must to help keep him going.. and now I hope with the IV Legend, that will as well.. I have not heard of Map5 at all , I guess I will run a search and find out more.. is it a generic?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted the good ones!
|
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 242
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 - 12:51 pm: | |
Here is a list of the ingredients that I copied from my other post.
Map-5 is a sterile Sodium Hyaluronate Cryopreservative for Mammalian Embryos.
The active ingredients for each 50mg vial is:
Sodium Hyaluronate Acid 50mg
Sodium Chloride USP 85mg
Sodium Phosphate Monobasic Dyhydrate USP 0.5mg
Sodium Phosphate Bibasic Dodecahydrate USP 6mg
Water for injection USP q.s. 10ml
Comes in 10mL vials at 5mg/mL
You can also go to www.bionicheanimalhealth.com
My vet has been using Map5 because it is less expensive than Legend and it is the same thing or at least that is what she said. I guess I will be doing some more homework comparing Legend to Map-5 .
Love those spots Ann  .
Susan B. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 11359
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 - 1:48 pm: | |
Map-5 is a generic product that is well recognized in the industry and I have used the product. The one caution I recommend is that the concentration of Map-5 is 1/2 of that of Legend so do not compare price on milliliter but on milligrams. The Map-5 advertising is a little tricky and I have even found veterinarians who believe the product contains 50mg/ml not a total of 50mg per bottle (10ml). On a milligram basis the MAP-5 is roughly 25% less wholesale.
DrO |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 243
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 - 4:38 pm: | |
Dr.O,
I am good and muddled now .
My gelding gets 2 vials at a time. I am assuming it is the 10ml size. Thanks for the revelation on that and you have given me more homework to do  .
The short and sweet question would be; How much Map-5 would be the equivalent of a Legend shot and is this given based on the horses weight or size?
I can open a new discussion Map-5 versus Legend...as there are a few interested people.
Susan B.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 11362
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 17, 2004 - 10:01 am: | |
This discussion can stay here Susan. Dosage is not based on weight. One 10 ml vial of Map-5 has 50 mg while one 4 ml bottle of Legend IV has 40 mg. Note Map-5 comes in a 2 ml bottle that would contain 10 mg. Two of those would be 20 mg or 1/2 the amount in a Legend IV vial. 20 mls is a very large injection.
DrO |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 246
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 - 1:43 pm: | |
If dosage is not based on weight of horse, what is it based on?
I will see my vet on Thursday for herd health day and I will ask her questions regarding vial size and is she aware of the concentration issue (Map 5 vs Legend).
To sum things up as much as I can understand would be:
My Horse
Map 5 2X 2ml vials @ 10mg ea. = 20mgs
Ann's Horse
Legend 1X 4ml vial @ 40mg = 40mgs
These are assumptions only as I don't know what Ann's horse is getting and I am uncertain as to how much my horse is getting. All I know is that it is making a difference.
Still trying to get unmuddled 
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 11369
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 - 4:16 pm: | |
All research with the IV product has been done with 40 mg per horse regardless of bodyweight. Much but not all of the work has been on TB's. Though it would seem logical that ponies might require less and percherons more this is not known. Nor is it known if lower doses in average size horses might be as effective or higher doses more effective.
DrO |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 247
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 20, 2004 - 10:52 am: | |
Thank you very much Dr.O for making it clear about the "unknowns". My vet and her students are going to love me and all my questions tomorrow . I frequently mention where I get this information from.
Ann, I apologize for taking over your discussion, but like you I want to know why this substance gives your horse that "Loose as a Goose" feeling .
I will probably have more questions tomorrow and will be able to post the amount my horse is getting. Thanks
Susan B. |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 248
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 11:57 am: | |
I have the correct dose of Map5 that my horse is getting, and is as follows taken from the Bioniche web site. Two, 2ml vials are given at one time. MAP- 5
Sterile Sodium Hyaluronate Cryopreservative for Mammalian Embryos
Sterile MAP-5 acts as a replacement for serum and serum products in cell handling and freezing solutions, and thereby reduces the risk of transmitting micro-organisms that may contaminate serum products.
DESCRIPTION:
Each vial (MAP-5) contains:
Sodium hyaluronate acid 20.6 mg
Sodium chloride USP 17.0 mg
Sodium phosphate: monobasic dihydrate USP 0.1 mg
Bibasic dodecahydrate USP q.s 1.2 mL
Water for injection U.S.P. q.s. 2 mL
Contains no preservatives.
PRECAUTIONS:
Store at room temperature (10-30°C).
PACKAGING:
2 mL vial (10 mg/mL)
(12 per box)
I asked my vet about "How this stuff works?", and she said that studies have shown measurable effects in the joints after 3 to 4 hours after IV injection. I will assume she meant a study on Map5.
Do you have studies on Map5 Dr.O?
Thanks in advance
Susan B.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 11396
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 8:21 am: | |
Hello Susan,
Thanks for the update. I went and looked at their site and the 2 ml vial does have twice the concentration of the 10 ml vial and my assertion of the dose in a total bottle being 10 mg is incorrect and the correct amount is 20 mg. I will correct this above so as not to confuse others.
No, none of the published papers that I have used MAP-5 in their research on lameness that I can ascertain.
DrO |
Susan Bilsky
Member
Username: Suzeb
Post Number: 249
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 10:31 am: | |
Thank you very much Dr.O! . I am no longer in a muddle over doses and concentration size. I will ask my vet next time she is out to give one of these shots about any published research on Map5 in arthritic horses. Will post any new revelations.
Thanks Ann for the discussion. Let's keep our fingers, toes and hooves crossed that this substance works for a long time .
Susan B. |
ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 438
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 4:35 pm: | |
Susan you brought up some great questions, I have been following with interest..
as of week two, my boy is still moving like water, very fluid/supple total body! ..no bobs on 10 meter turns etc.. so now I am rethinking, maybe I will do this shot every 4-6 weeks..
I have a new question along these lines DR. O.. with this legend shot should I continue with the oral supplements..? As we all know the cost is getting rather high with the every 4 weeks 'special' shoes ., supplements and now shots..
or do you think I can save a few bucks and do only the shots.. ?
Thanks as always Ann
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted the good ones!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 11401
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 6:25 am: | |
Yes, I would continue the oral products at least for a while. The antiinflammatory effect from the hyaluronate is only about 3 weeks and there is no reason not to believe the effects are additive. It could be that with just the shots you would not be getting the effect you are now. I would do the opposite wait to see how long the horse can go without the Legend.
DrO |
ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 439
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 10:38 am: | |
Thanks... |
SKutyba
Member
Username: Skutyba
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 5:55 pm: | |
My daughter's 4 year old appendix mare is recovering from a bad joint (fetlock) injury. Due to excellent vet care and rehab, it appears she will return to full use. However, she has just been confirmed in foal. We had intended to give her a few more Legend injections over the next few months, just to ensure that joint was ok, but can't find anything to indicate if it is safe for a pregnant mare. We certainly do not want to risk harming the foal.
Are there any studies or information available regarding Legend and pregnant mares? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12312
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 7:42 am: | |
Studies...no, but considering the pharmacology of hyaluronate it is hard to imagine it would hurt the pregnancy, but I cannot be 100% sure.
DrO |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 359
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 31, 2007 - 3:18 pm: | |
Ann and Susan, I wanted to follow up with you guys in relation to your legend/map5 injections. Are you both still using them? Thanks! |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1237
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 12:58 am: | |
Gwen.. I have quit using the legend shots.. but still continue with the orals.. It seemed after a year I started to notice no change after the shot... maybe his tolerance levels had changed.. ?? Thus far I am happy with the orals.. its been a few years since the above post, and my horse has progressive hoof issues... its a matter of time and he will be my pasture pal only.. * still riding him now.. not able to show.. he has more good days but he has some bad ones too..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 811
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 7:08 am: | |
Gwen, I am also curious how other horses are doing on legend. My old mare who is a pasture ornament, but very arthritic gets IV Legend. She seems to be able to go around 3 mos. She is past the 3 mos. point now and I can see a difference. Her creaking and popping is worse and she has slowed some. I gave her legend at the beginning of winter (her worse time) and it was the best winter she has had in a long time...I didn't have to bute her at all.
She is also on orals. Legend is not a cure by any means, but it does seem to help her....except for holding her back legs for the farrier. |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 360
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 9:17 am: | |
Ann, that was a bit of a bummer, but not terribly surprising I guess. It sounds as though many are still quite skeptical of the drug, however I just gave my guy his third dose in three weeks and he really seems great. He also though, has been in a great excercise program too. I was hoping that this was the answer, since he has many "hot spots" throughout his body... Thanks Diane too! |
