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Discussion on Quest Dewormer and mini donkeys

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Leah Hinnefeld
Member
Username: lmh1965

Post Number: 6
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Friday, Sep 26, 2008 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Dr O~

I did a search and could not find anything specific to Quest and donkeys. I have decided to add Quest in to my deworming rotation and have now read all kinds of 'evils' on the net about Quest and donks.

Fort Dodge says it is 'safe' and gave a disclaimer that things can happen-but no more or less than with horses.

Do you have any experience with Quest and donks? They are both in good health and have been dewormed on a regular basis for the last 12 months.

Prior to that I took a little detour to 'natural' dewormers for a couple of years but came back to a traditional rotating program last winter.

The have had strongid, ivermectin, a powerpack and anthelcide on a proper schedule for my environment prior to Quest so I don't feel there is a risk of extremely high parasite load.

thank you!
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Cyndy
Member
Username: hpyhaulr

Post Number: 401
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, Sep 26, 2008 - 5:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Leah,
Dr. O will get back to you, if not tonight, then probably in the morning...Meanwhile, may I suggest that you take just one more detour. If you reference your "Quest search" to miniatures, you will find the contraindications. NO QUEST was the one strict caveat I got from my breeder when I got my minis. Have you reviewed Dr. O's worming schedule? I follow his protocol for my horses, my minis and my donkey, and I am also in your environment, just about 2 hours away from you. His plan is very specific, cost effective and productive. One less thing I have to think through. No need to reinvent the wheel so to speak.
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Leah Hinnefeld
Member
Username: lmh1965

Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2008 - 7:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh thank you cyndy! I will search again!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 21434
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2008 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

There are no contraindications with Quest (moxidectin) in minis or donkeys that I am aware of. The problem I have seen in minis is with improper dosage due to lack of accurate weight and accidental administration of too much product. The tubes are designed for much larger animals and occasionally the locking hubs have failed and this has caused problems. For 10 years I have recommended that 250 lb or 500lbs be put into a 3 cc or 6 cc syringe respectively and be dosed that way. I have never had a problem if this is done.

Concerning it's use in donkeys I have no information on increase toxicity of moxidectin but neither about the effectiveness and there are important pharmacological differences with other drugs in donkeys. We have about a dozen burros on a program that includes the regular use of moxidectin. The fecal results we get suggest it is effective at recommended doses.
DrO
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Leah Hinnefeld
Member
Username: lmh1965

Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Saturday, Sep 27, 2008 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr O~

My concern is I really don't have an accurate enough idea what my minis weigh. I am more comfy having a wild guess on the other dewormer classes, but of course Quest warrants more than a wild guess.

I searched the forum and found a weight formula for minis-

3.7 x Heart Girth x 2.54=A
Body Length x 2.54 = B
A+B=C
C-348.5=Weight.

Dr O, have you or anyone confirmed the accuracy of this on mini donks? I wonder if the body shape of a mini donk vs. mini horse would change the accuracy?

I am really rolling around you dewormer program in my head-it is very interesting!!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 21441
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I do not know how accurate this would be Leah. I presume the measurements are in inches, the formula then converts them to centimeters (2.54 cm/inch), then you manipulate them according to the formula. Does anyone have any known weights (measured on a scale) of minis willing to check this formula?
DrO
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Leah Hinnefeld
Member
Username: lmh1965

Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

OH if someone did have access to a scale that would be fantastic!
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Lori
Member
Username: maggienm

Post Number: 769
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Leah, the formula I use for my minis is this:
heartgirth x heartgirth x body length divided by 300 = weight in lbs.

I got this formula from a mini horse site.

This afternoon I compared the two formulas with my filly.
Using your formula my filly weighs 169.15lb; with mine she weighs 264.58lbs.
Since she is two 1/2 yrs and fairly plump 169lb doesn't seem reasonable.
Without actually using a scale I can't verify the accuracy of either.
There is a weigh scale about 1/2 mile from where I live, I just might load up and go weigh them.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 21446
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 7:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lori's formula is close to the one offered in our article for measuring normal size horses atHorse Care » Routine Horse Care » Estimating Weight, Height, and Body Condition Scoring. In that same article you will find a table that does not require any calculations to convert inches of girth to lbs. It goes down to 100 lbs and be sure you understand the difference between the measurement of girth and heart girth. I would love to see how it compares with the formula and a actual weighing.
DrO
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Chris Luckett
Member
Username: xenophon

Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 2:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

According to my friend who has 3 mini donkeys, and to whom I've been passing along the info. from this thread, here's the best way to estimate their weight......"The best way to estimate weight for donkeys is to go on the website for the UK Donkey Sanctuary and download a copy of their nomogram - print it out and measure heart girth and height from ground to withers and connect the two numbers on the nomogram scale. The formula this person (from previous post) is using will not work well as it is only if the donkey has perfect proportions. If the torso is long and the body height is short, the formula doesn't work." Hope this helps!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 21452
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Chris the formula can still work but may have a larger margin of error. By adding in the height of the donkey as a factor the calculations you may decrease the error. In one study of two published formulas in a particular population of burros it found that the one that included height (average of 9% underestimation) was not as accurate as the one that used heart girth alone (average 6% underestimation). That formula was:

Live weight = heart girth2.65 ÷ 2188

Just looking at the nomogram you reference, large swings in height make small changes in weight. The bottom line is you use the most accurate tool you can and realize anything short of a scale will be a bit inaccurate. I regularly recommend for dosing anthelmintics you add 10% to any calculated weight.
DrO
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Lori
Member
Username: maggienm

Post Number: 772
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 9:44 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I don't know anything about donkeys but the formula I used came from a site that specializes in mini horses.
Now I am really curious so if I can swing it I will go to the scale today.
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Lori
Member
Username: maggienm

Post Number: 776
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Saturday, Oct 4, 2008 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Today I took all three of my horses to the scale and weighed them.
I weighed the trailer first then weighed each separately in the trailer and then individually on the scale.
As a control measure we also weighed my hubby, the scale weighed him 7lbs heavier than the house scales, which personally I think weigh heavy.

So, now that I am here at the computer ready and eager to do some math and see how the formulas work out I realize that I didn't measure the two standard size horses.

When I used the first formula in this post I got a weight of 169lbs, the second formula 264lb and the scale put the little girl at 242.lbs.
Altering the length of the horse by one inch added 7lbs, and subtracted 6lbs respectively.
Obviously there is some room for error from both the scale and the formulas.
tomorrow I will double check my measurements and also see how my other horses compare.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 21488
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lori, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your little experiment but would like to take it one more step: what is the measure of your horse's girth?
DrO
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Lori
Member
Username: maggienm

Post Number: 777
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2008 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, I have measured each horse with a regulare tape and used the formula and also just for kicks used a weight tape also.

However, before I post the results could you clarify where I measure the length.
In the directions it says the foremost point of the shoulder and buttock.
I am not sure in regards to the shoulder. What I have done is imagined she is a rectangle, at the point of the corner this is where I am taking the length measurement.
Thank you.
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Julie Masner
Member
Username: juliem

Post Number: 487
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Someone sent this to me today--don't have a mini so I don't know why, but maybe it will add more to this issue. "The folks at Kentucky Equine Research formulated an equation to help determine a more accurate weight for minis.
Specific measurements (in inches) of girth, height, and length of an individual Mini are plugged into equations to determine body weight
(in pounds)."Joe Pagan, PHD explains, "To measure girth, place the tape just behind
the front legs and over the withers. Pull the tape snug, but not tight enough to depress the flesh. For height, stand the horse squarely on level
ground or pavement and measure the vertical distance from the ground to the top of the withers. If there is a question as to the exact location of the withers, allow the horse to lower its head and neck as if to graze and measure to the highest point in front of the saddle area. The tape should be kept perpendicular to the ground, not laid against the horse. Length is measured from the middle of the horse's chest, along the side, and around to a point under the center of the tail." You should arrive at a fairly
reasonable estimation of body weight of a Mini by using the formulas below.

Body Weight Estimation Formulas

1. (Girth x 9.36) + (length x 5.01) - 348.53 = body weight in pounds.
2. (Girth x 11.68) + (height x 2.85) - 357.26 = body weight in pounds.
3. (Girth x 13.18) - 326.07 = body weight in pounds." End quoted material.
I wonder if this will work for my Shetland?
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Lori
Member
Username: maggienm

Post Number: 781
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2008 - 11:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ellie: HG 81.5 Length 70(this length is measureing her like she is a rectangle, long side only.
scale 1364
weight tape 1272
formula 1408

Lucy: HG 74 L 66
Scale 1122
Weight tape 974
Formula 1095

Jinny: (mini) HG 44 L41
Scale 242.00
Weight tape 228
Formula 264 (mini formula)

Trying the recent formula:
well, not sure why there are three choices, only did the top one, got 268.72lbs so that is right in the ball park also.
The formula can vary considerably if the measurement is off only one inch.

Just for info purposes, Ellie is a bit heavy about a 7.
Lucy is a bit light, about a 4.5 or 5.

I must say I was surprised Lucy weighed that much.
Neither are well muscled.
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