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Margo P.
Member
Username: mpurdy
Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 12, 2008 - 9:17 pm: |   |
Hi - I will get right to the questions, and then you can read the more extensive explanation if you wish...
How long after stopping a joint supplement would there be any difference noted in the horse's way of going? If the horse seems to be no different when supplement-free, is there still an argument to be made for its use in order to mitigate the affects of aging?
My mare Penny has been on some sort of joint supplement for about 6 years (she is going on 17) because of arthritis in the hocks confirmed by x-ray and general stiffness on occasion. For over a year the product has been Cosequin.
My subjective "measure" of her condition is her suppleness, willingness to move into a trot or a canter, and the free flowing quality of the gait:
"Average," "Below average," "Above average." Typically I can get all of these results over several weeks (3-6 rides), but above average is seen less frequently.
Penny has been off of Cosequin since Nov. 24 and I have ridden her three times since then. The first time I rode, I was not aware that it had been stopped- "Average" ride. The next time was also an average ride. Today it was above average even with the added challenge of being taken from the stall and ridden before the daily turn out.
If this is how life is without a joint supplement, then I would really be on board with not buying it! Answering my questions will help me decide.
Thanks!
Margo in NC |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 21947
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 14, 2008 - 9:25 am: | |
Hello Margo,
If we assume there is a difference to be seen, we don't really know how long it would take following cessation to see it. The answer to your second question is the subject of the whole article associated with this forum. But if you want the short version see the summary entitled "A Last Few Words".
DrO |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 743
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 14, 2008 - 11:37 am: | |
Hi Margo,
I've had answers from vets on this topic that range from 2 weeks to 2 months, both for loading dose (to see any improvement) to withdrawal time. Because these products are generally legal under FEI rules, we don't seem to have great research on withdrawal times.
Everyone thinks differently about these supplements and whether any potential benefit is worth the cost. I use a joint supplement on my competition horse who has multiple soundness challenges, including high and low ringbone and an old back injury-- I do it because anything affordable that might improve her gait symmetry or lengthen her working career is worth a try for her. But I wouldn't bother on a trail or pleasure horse, because the difference seems to me to be too slight in terms of the horse's comfort to be worth the price. For them, I'd rather put the money towards NSAIDs or injections, if necessary.
Others will think differently. The research suggests the impact, where measurable, is pretty small. So I use these supplements only when a small difference might matter. |
Susanne R
Member
Username: sryder11
Post Number: 54
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 14, 2008 - 6:36 pm: | |
a few years ago I wondered whether the oral joint supplement I use (the product I currently use is Fluid Flex) was doing my horse any good so I tried taking him off it. He seemed fine initially but within 3-4 weeks I could feel him develop stiffness and I sensed a decrease in his willingness. My trainer, who only rode him weekly, commented on it as well. I still keep him on it today (age 17) and supplement him with occasional IM injections of Adequan. I notice when this wears off too.
Even though he is only a lower-level dressage horse I feel the supplement adds to his comfort and enjoyment of his work. I would say if your horse is off the Cosequin for a couple of months and you don't notice a real difference in her, it may not be worth the expense. |
Margo P.
Member
Username: mpurdy
Post Number: 21
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2008 - 4:21 pm: | |
Thank you the input, everyone! I will keep you posted if/when I notice a difference. I enjoyed another "above average" ride on Friday the 19th.
Margo |
Kathy in NM
Member
Username: klowe
Post Number: 92
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2008 - 6:45 pm: | |
Margo, I will be interested to hear you conclusions. I have an older guy w/low RF ringbone who became very lame last spring, doing nothing but roaming (around a couple of flat but gravelly acres) along with his buddy, who has DJD of the knee.
For around 6 months I had him on NSAIDs and various joint supplements, ending with Ramard Total Joint Performance for the last half of that time, which seemed to help. However, being what I consider very pricey, I have more or less been forced to try him without it, and actually for the past month he has mostly been without either, just a few days here and there w/Naprosyn when he began to favor that leg.
The big HOWEVER, though, is that during that period I have also been working to find a competent natural trimmer. I am pretty much a novice as a horse care-taker and it wasn't until he became really lame that I began researching and saw that his front hooves, in particular, were not right...long-toed, wrong angles...I am on my 3rd farrier, who so far seems the best, and Paint is doing well on the minimal Naprosyn.
If I could afford it, I would probably still be giving the Ramard, even though my logic tells me that it might equally well be the NSAIDs or the better trim or the combination thereof...
So, I 'll be looking forward to follow-ups from you and anyone else w/experience in this area!
Kathy |
Margo P.
Member
Username: mpurdy
Post Number: 22
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Mar 1, 2009 - 10:24 pm: | |
Hi! I am back with a report on my experience with Penny off of supplement for 3 months:
MONTH ONE - 2 average rides; 1 above average ride
MONTH TWO - 6 average rides; 3 above average rides
MONTH THREE - 8 average rides; 2 above average rides; 1 below average ride
This very subjective "study" is even less meaningful because I never kept a ride journal for any period when she was on Cosequin! It makes me feel better to see that she is doing well even if the SCIENCE behind my experiment is lame .
The fact that I have saved $65 is very rewarding!
Margo
}} |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 22461
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 9:05 am: | |
Very good Margo,
I think the 'science' is on your side or at the least not against you. If you don't detect a difference it is hard to justify the cost of a supplement that does not have reliable studies saying this might make a significant difference in your horses health. Important to note here is the word 'significance'. It is not used in the context of "scientific significance" but "clinically significant". The two can be very different.
I wish more of our members would investigate the science behind their supplements claims and actively test the claims when there is no strong scientific support for it's use.
DrO |
Vicki Zaneis
Member
Username: vickiann
Post Number: 972
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 12:46 pm: | |
With one of my boys, the oldest with the most issues, there is a very noticeable difference every time I have ceased giving him his Corta-Flx. Due to his size and issues I keep him on a loading dose continually, as this is what is required to keep him moving better.
I must say that I did NOT expect to see a drastic change when I put him onto the supplement, but with the pellets I think that by day 7 the change was remarkable.
Every time I have added this supplement back for him after him being off of it for one reason or another (availability of fresh product had been a problem a couple of summers running), I have noticed a very big difference.
I think that with horses, it is like with humans. Some individuals have different results than others.
Strangely, this particular horse does not care for the taste of the Cosequin and refuses to eat it. |
