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Discussion on Mustangs and general anesthesia?
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2009 - 4:21 pm:
I received a call today from a panicked friend who owns a QH-Mustang cross. Yes, yes, I know I'm not supposed to ask questions for other people but this is really a general question for me! 
Her gelding managed to break a tooth off below the gum line. The vet, who is well respected in the area, says the tooth needs to come out and could not get it removed yesterday after working on it for over an hour. He says the horse will need surgery to get the tooth out although he doesn't want to do it because mustangs don't do well under and many don't come out of general anesthesia. I'd never heard this before and asked her if she knew the basis for his claim. She did not and said she would ask him today. When she told her father (old-time cowboy) last night he agreed with the vet which has her even more worried.
I can't find anything online regarding mustangs and general anesthesia; good or bad. Is there any basis for his concern? Has anyone ever heard of mustangs, as a breed, not making it through general anesthesia more often than other breeds?
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2009 - 8:34 am:
And please Dr. O - when you answer Sara's question - why isn't it possible to cap the tooth? Inquiring minds want to know
Cheryl
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2009 - 9:09 am:
Cheryl, that was another question I had! I actually asked my friend the same thing. Because horses' teeth grow constantly it seemed to me that, even though it was broken off below the gum line, the exposed nerves could have been capped and time would take care of the rest. She couldn't tell me the details but said that the vet assured her it needed to come out.
I also wondered about the anesthesia because in order to attempt to pull the tooth with the horse standing he had to be drugged. He tried for over an hour with three doses of anesthetic in that time unsuccessfully to pull the tooth. He claimed that he never would have tried for so long if he hadn't been part mustang because he didn't want to knock him out. It seems to me that he had to use a general anesthesia for the initial process even though the horse wasn't completely out.
The vet has apparently done studies on anesthesia and will be consulting with his colleagues regarding the best type to use for this case. My friend will let me know what they'll be using once he decides.
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New Member:
3chip
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Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2009 - 12:53 pm:
Sara said "Has anyone ever heard of mustangs, as a breed, not making it through general anesthesia more often than other breeds?" Mustangs as we know them, are not really a breed in and of themselves. Most have, through breeding with quarter horses, Arabian etc. (escaped or let loose by ranchers)been responsible for dilution of the original Spanish Barb (Mustang) gene pool. But even they were not far removed from the horses we have today.As far as anesthesia is concerned there is nothing I have ever seen to support your vets position for anesthesia in what we now call mustangs.
Phil in Montana
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2009 - 3:51 pm:
Thank you for your input, Phil. I'm well aware that the herds of wild horses that are adopted out through the BLM have been crossed through the years with domestic horses of different breeds. It's likely, however, that the majority of them still do have some "mustang" genes in there somewhere. Just as ivermectin can have an adverse affect on collies I wanted to throw out the question to see if there was any data showing that "mustangs" can have adverse reactions to anesthesia.
I'm coming to the conclusion from speaking with other people off this board that it's not a genetic problem but a temperament problem which has caused some people to generalize, including the vet currently working on my friend's horse. Because "mustangs" have a greater fear response it may take more drugs to knock them out or they may come out of the anesthesia more violently. I don't think this will be an issue with my friend's horse, though, since he's one of the most mild mannered horses I've ever been around...of any breed.
Cheryl, it occurred to me that they may not have been able to save the tooth if when he broke it off horizontally below the gum line perhaps he cracked it vertically down into the root, as well. I'll have to ask if that was the case.
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Member:
3chip
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Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2009 - 7:37 pm:
In 1978 we adopted 3 Mustangs, one of the first adoptions in this part of the country. One turned out to be an orangutan while the other two were fine. They were treated the same as any of our other horses including medicines, feed and vet services. As far as the fear response, these three just as any other horse not handled, were very wary. In perhaps a month after much association with us, their fears gave way to anticipation for us spending time with them. Two squares a day, a good place to rest with out fear of predators, and good company. And I believe Mustang genes pose no different set of problems than do Quarter horse, Arabian, Hanovarian or.........
Phil in Montana
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2009 - 10:50 pm:
I have not heard of a problem with general anesthesia in Mustangs. As to why the horses tooth might not be capped I don't know but it is not a routine procedure done in horses.
DrO
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Member:
warthog
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2009 - 12:04 am:
this is interesting because I just had a dental procedure for an infected tooth and jaw and the dentist explained that when an infection is ongoing the body produces additional nerves and these additional nerves are much more difficult to deaden. so if this was an ongoing problem with the tooth it is very possible that sedation in this particular case would be much more difficult because of the additional nerves that would form. I know also that any animal that is totally panicked is nearly impossible to sedate which is why humans are given "happy juice" before a procedure so they are very very relaxed and can be sedated much more easily.
So the idea that mustangs would require more sedation and therefore not do as well one would think could only have arisen from people who were treating mustangs just captured and separated from family groups and terrified, because a tame mustang - and we live next door to one - can be really really laid back. Our tame feral breed horse who is pretty much pure Spanish origin is very easy to sedate (was sedated for dental work) because he is very confidant of his ability to survive and he really loves people. so I vote "myth" on that one too. I think I'd get real dentist who works with a vet on this one. we've used both vets and dentists working with vets and much prefer the second because all they do is dentistry so quite frankly they have more practice at it. Our dentist and his vet partner have this fantastic trailer with stocks and a head rest for the horse and all sorts of things to make his job safer for the horse and the dentist. The horse is sedated and walked up a long soft matted ramp into the trailer and the dentist checks to see if the horse is properly sedated and if not, the vet gives either more or a different type of sedation depending on the horse. Our mare gets so nervous she shakes and he gave her something different to really calm her down. they do a fantastic job and we know of two other teams who do just as well. this is what I'd look for if this were my horse.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2009 - 8:40 am:
Thanks, Dr. O! I appreciate it.
Warthog, that trailer sounds phenomenal! I agree with the theory on the problem being with mustangs that have just or recently been captured and are highly stressed. This seems to be the general consensus. I know from past experience (watched someone else do it) that giving a shot of Ace to a horse that's already panicked caused the opposite from the desired effect. This, by the way, was a TB race horse and not a mustang so any horse that is panicked or fear driven is likely to have the same reaction.
The tough part about this is that, one, it's not my horse and I'm nowhere near to even get first hand information. And two, the horse and owner are away from home in a different state at the trainer's facility. I am good friends with both the owner and the trainer and, although I don't know the vet, they both trust him tremendously. And it sounds like he's doing everything right by researching the perfect anesthetic ahead of time and calling in specialists. Perhaps his concern for this "mustang" is a good thing!
I'm confident my friend's horse will be just fine (knock on wood, of course) and that there is no added danger other than that which goes along with general anesthesia normally.
Thanks to everyone for your responses and I'll let you know how it goes!
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2009 - 8:48 am:
Thanks Dr. O Sara - I would be willing to bet the tooth wasn't x-rayed - Maybe capping horse teeth is just something that hasn't been explored - In this case I would think it would be an avenue to look at - Are there any Dentists in town that lean toward horsy pursuits? Might be something to check out. Just because it isn't done - doesn't necessarily translate to it can't be done.
Cheryl
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Member:
3chip
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2009 - 11:50 am:
Sara said "I know from past experience (watched someone else do it) that giving a shot of Ace to a horse that's already panicked caused the opposite from the desired effect." Ace has always had a somewhat poor history of tranquilizing, some horses taking it ok while others can seem to go the opposite way and become very hyper. That's been my experience. Now Demosedan is simply the best tranquilizer ever, in my opinion.
Phil in Montana
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2009 - 12:27 pm:
Any tranquilizer that I know of will not work as well or as expected if an animal, horse, human or otherwise, is overly excited. I've even seen this with kids (and an adult) in the dentist chair and with a wild burro that took enough drugs to knock a hippo down before she "zonked out" enough to treat her.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2009 - 1:06 pm:
Just wanted to give a quick update on my friend's horse, Yolo (You only live once). Yolo had an uneventful and successful surgery at Chaparral Veterinary Medical Center (www.cahosp.com) yesterday. Kristi called me yesterday evening thanking me for helping to put her mind at ease and give her some perspective and I wanted to pass that on to all that offered advice and support. Kristi is a bit gun-shy these days. Here family, as some of you might remember from earlier posts, lost several horses last year to multiple causes. This story had a happy ending!
As an aside, Kristi was blown away by the staff and the facility at Chaparral. I'd love to visit some day and take a physical tour of the facility. You can take a virtual tour on their website. Apparently, one of the amenities offered is an owner waiting room with closed-circuit feed of your animal's surgery. Pretty fancy!
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