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Discussion on Photonic Therapy
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Sarah White
Member
Username: Louwhite
Post Number: 16
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 12:42 pm: |   |
I just came across Photonic Therapy and am wondering if anyone has any experience, good or bad, to relay. Here's a website with scientific papers: http://www.mclarenphotonictherapy.com/Applied_Vet.htm |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12943
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 7:49 am: | |
The problem is that the paper talks about everything from the effects of sunlight on the human skin to lasers used is surgery. Yes these are valid points and therapies.
But the idea of shining a red light on acupuncture points has no scientific support that I can find.
DrO |
DEB W
Member
Username: Dwawz
Post Number: 8
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 7, 2005 - 11:34 am: | |
Sarah and Dr. O
I used to do acupuncture treatments then started using photonic therapy. I have had good results. I have attended a couple workshops with Dr. McLaren and use his system regularly with my horses..and dogs and cats and yes even my family.
I certainly do not understand all the scientific reasoning behind it, but I do know I have had some positive results. If you have questions I'm sure he would be happy to answer them.
Deb |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13082
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 8:41 am: | |
DEB,
Thank you for your input. I do want you to consider how poor our ability to draw correct conclusions in complicated biological systems if our observations are not carefully tested. The best example is the nature of medicine for nearly 1500 years before the scientific method was introduced. You are only 100 years away from when bleeding was considered standard treatment. And thousands of learned men considered that they got "good results" from such treatment over a lifetime of practicing medicine. For more on this see Member's Services members_only » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Alternative Medicine and Epistomology. Particularly review the topic "DrO's Big Mistake".
DrO |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin
Post Number: 52
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 7:39 am: | |
Hello everybody,
I first heard about Photonic Therapy from a friend of mine who uses it on herself and her horses....when she first told me about it, I thought "yeah right....sure....what ^%#^$%#..." (btw..I'm a scientist!). So I went and read all the background info on this "therapy" and nothing in it changes my view!! Then after a trailride, my friend accompanied me home and brought her "light-stick" into the barn to "redlight" my horse....now, I know my horse reasonably well regarding how she responds to brushing, petting, massaging, etc....but I had NEVER seen a reaction like this when all the standard horse points were dealt with....she literally fell asleep! Dropped her head, sighed, closed her eyes! At this point, I decided that something must be going on when using this thing. So I softened up and bought a kit just in time for my girl to have a huge spook and injure one of her back legs...this was the perfect scenario to try the "redlight" since animals would likely not display a placebo effect. She stood there with no weight on her hind leg (stretched forward with just light ground contact) and I did all the standard points and then went around the critical areas of her leg. After about 2 min or so (she had shuffeled around before but always ended up with the leg stretched forward) she sighed stretched, put the leg back under her, gently put some more weight on it and then fully rested on it, cleary relieved. Needless to say, I was stunned and have since used my redlight to relieve pain on my horse, my aging, arthritic dogs (by now they line up for redlight treatment and are no longer on antiinflammatories...I did NOT change anything else in their care!)....and also used it on myself with great success!
Photonic therapy in my opinion and experience seems to be beneficial for relief of certain kinds of pain and after being a big skeptic, after hands on experience in quite a lot of situations, I now carry my light stick in my purse whereever I go!
I, too, would be happy to answer any questions on this and share my experience.
Christine |
Cindy Flood
New Member
Username: Floodfar
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 12:49 pm: | |
Christine, I personally know a few people who use Phototonic therapy and they all claim to get good results. I am thinking about purchasing one myself. I have a mare with a stone bruise and am wondering if it could help with that. My impression is it only works on soft tissues. Do you have any ideas on this? I have used it on my mare a couple of times and both times she fell asleep. Thank you, Cindy Flood |
Ann
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 538
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 2:50 pm: | |
I went to the web site... is this costly..? There is no price list...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS.. |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin
Post Number: 53
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 8:19 pm: | |
Hello Cindy and Ann,
Just yesterday we used the light stick on a horse with a stone bruise....I am not sure that we got much of a result except the horse being maybe a bit more comfortable (I hit all the "pain points" for the lower leg, including the point around the coronet band). Today he is almost sound but could have been so all by himself...so I don't know! What I do notice frequently, though, is that once you hit a sore spot, you get a definite "twitch" or "jerk", the same you would with accupressure. So I found a few of these around the horse's fetlock and treated them...this may have contributed.
As to the price...ehem  ...this thing is NOT cheap! Around $600 for the torch, the manual, a laminated chart for the standard points and a CD for either dog or horse, as well as to show the standard points for humans. Sounds expensive, however, in my case it is starting to pay off since the medicines my dogs used to be on were quite pricey and in a year or so, the price of the kit will be recovered in savings for meds.
Christine |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13130
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 11:11 pm: | |
I repeat, the idea of shining a red light on acupuncture points has no scientific support that I can find and 600$ is an awfully expensive placebo.
DrO |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 10:31 am: | |
I wanted to revive this topic to see if anyone had any new input on the subject. I have heard SO many wonder stories from my circle of horse friends that I am seriously thinking of investing the $$$ for one of my own. Anyone care to comment or share their own experiences? Thanks! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18192
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 9:12 am: | |
Hello Anne,
The body's ability to heal without little red lights being shined on it is truly a wonder. As far as we know shining little red lights on the body, horse or human, does not increase or decrease this wonder.
DrO |
DEB W
Member
Username: dwawz
Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 8:10 am: | |
I continue to use photonic therapy and feel I am getting good results. Do I completely understand the process, no I don't. But if I did only things that I truly understand, I'd be in a world of ... horse manure. If we stop looking for new ways of doing things, health, environment, science, this world would be pretty bleak. I'm glad our ancestors didn't quit trying new things, or we wouldn't be sitting here reading this article on this website, with heat in our homes, taking our medicine for whatever ails us while watching breaking news on the television and possibly talking to a relative in another country, on a cell phone. If you need to really understand, talk with Dr. McLaren, being closed minded, gets us nowhere. |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 3:12 pm: | |
Thanks Deb- and Dr. O. I hope some others will add their experiences. I have encountered far more folks who swear by it than those who say it didn't help but my sampling is certainly not scientific.
I have 2 vets for my mares, one conventional and one who does conventional treatment and also acupuncture and chiropractic. It is interesting to me that just a few short years ago in my circle of "horse people" the use of chiropractic in horse care was practically laughed at and today is positively mainstream. Acupuncture is almost there.
Thanks again and please keep the comments coming. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18208
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 7:37 pm: | |
DEB there are several types of closed minded behavior but they all center around not looking at a set of facts and assessing the information objectively. Often this is accompanied by personally disparaging those who disagree. My position on this is simple, looking at the scientific evidence, there is no clear evidence this type therapy is of value for anything other than enriching the pockets of those who make the product. The lack of good evidence is is backed up with my admitted limited understanding of physical, chemical, and biological systems. But as I understand them there is no obvious mechanism by which such "therapy" would help.
Let's be clear what is being discussed here. The term photonics can be used to describe many type of therapy including some useful treatments such as laser surgery, the activation of photo-active drugs using light or even the use of sunlight to treat vitamin D deficiency. So let's be specific, we are talking about shining little red lights on the skin to stimulate healing of tissues distant from the light. I concede that to the degree this light heats the tissues it is focused on and therefore increases circulation could be helpful but far cheaper to hot pack the area with a warm wet cloth or heating pad.
Anne, as to acupuncture and chiropractic, I am afraid they are in a similar position with the evidence for their efficacy not clearly shown in well conducted and backed up scientific studies. They do have one advantage in that mechanisms of efficacy through massage and perhaps the general release of endorphins induced by trauma are possible mechanisms of actions. You have to remember just 20 years ago every vet used prednisone for treating conditions in horses and thought it helpful. Medical history is clear, there is no poorer medical evidence than personal experience to support efficacy. As your friends have experienced more diseases get well than stay ill when they shine their red lights on their horses, but what does not seem to be factored in here is this is the normal nature of illness whether you shine red lights on the horse or not.
DrO |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 79
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 9:27 pm: | |
Hello everyone,
I have been trying very hard to stay out of this since I use Photonic therapy (yes, the little red light from Dr. McLaren) on my dogs, my horse, my friends' horses and also on myself. I cannot argue with Dr. O since there are indeed no clinical trials, especially the randomized, blinded type for this type of alternative medicine in horse or in humans. Other altnernative methods such as acupuncture have been through some randomized, and partially "blinded" studies and have shown effects for some conditions and none for others. So, for the healing effect of a little red light for chronic or longer term effects (not just temporary relief or acute conditions) Dr. O will always be 100% correct...this is not evidence based medicine...but now comes the big "however" and where it is easy to be a potential hypocrit because the McLaren photonic "tools" are quite expensive....Please show me ANY evidence based, randomized or whatever controlled studies about heart bar shoes "curing" or relieving any conditions. Show me ONE piece of evidence that a specific shoeing approach, that we are happy to spend hundreds of $$ on and trust the professional applying it to make a significant difference IN THE LONG RUN...this is just one example and when you attend conferences on farriery and shoeing and follow the new studies coming out, you will see that the "science of farriery" is also not evidence based and very much trial and error based and as much of an art and good craftsmanship coupled with tremendous experience by the professional (just for the record, I am NOT saying that farriers don't know what they are doing but I am saying that there are no controlled studies to show that a specific approach in farriery to address a specific problem actually always works...every good farrier will tell you that they s/he uses what works for them while others use a different approach, and both swear by it!). Now what does this have to do with photonic therapy....I have personnally seen horses (and dogs) totally relax when treated with the little red light that is not supposed to work. I have been successful in relieving obvious discomfort in a horse and have gotten very significant reactions to what appeared sore points with the red light over and over again but not when poking my finger gently at the same site or using a pen or whatever.
Apart from this, by using this red light I have learned a ton about the physiology of horses, where they seem to be sore, how they react, how to spot muscle tightness and do thoroughly enjoy the reactions by my friends the first time I use the redlight on their horse and I always get the "wow...what did you do...he is soo relaxed...look, he is not standing all crimped up any more..." Now, unless I am a magician or consistently lucky or end up with horses that just WANT to be touched my me and relax (not likely), I cannot explain what these reactions are based on rather than that they are feeling SOMETHING and this SOMETHING is making them feel better. Yes, not evidence based, expensive, no solid scientific rationale behind it, maybe I just WANT it to work, but work it does and at this point I really stopped caring about whether I can explain this scientifically or not (I am a Ph.D. scientist and was trained to follow the evidence!). I already spent the money on this, and am happy I did. Dr. O, I would be more than happy to send you my light torch and let you "play" with it for a few weeks to draw your own conclusions. This discussion will probably never be resolved and there are still horsey people out that will buy this. So, if anyone has a friend whose light torch you can borrow, do it and try to be really objective as to what you observe and then draw your own conclusions as to whether you are willing to pay a significant chunk of change to Dr. McLaren for this. I am glad I did while at the same time having to agree 100% with Dr. O. on the assessment and the lack of science and rigorous controlled studies around the use of this tool. Sometimes it comes down to a matter of "belief" as to whether something can work or not but especially since animals are not as prone to a placebo effect as humans are I do wonder why so many people seem to swear by this and use it with great success. I'd rather apply a little red light to my horse's skin first than oversupplementing, provide injections, buy magic ointments, etc. that have reputations of "working or not (in the end, I would probably end up spending more money on this than what I sent off to Dr. McLaren). I have stopped giving medications for arthritis to my dogs and guess what, with just the redlight therapy they are just as comfortable as they were when medicated and no longer limp, have problems getting up and down stairs, etc...I changed NOTHING ELSE and they have not gotten any younger either!!!
Enough now (whew), Dr O, please let me know if you would like to try out the redlight or whether you will adhere to your principles of no-evidence, no-go...the offer stands!! I completely understand your position of not being willing to support/endorse a method when there is no scientific or apparent mechanism/explanation of its evidence, since it is clear, and much appreciated that the purpose of your most excellent website is to provide solid, sound, scientifically based advice...this is why I use this site as my first go-to with whatever question I am researching.....but when it comes to photonic therapy, I hope we can end up agreeing to disagree and hope you will consider a try-out (no, I am not going to benefit from any sales of this thing...this is all just to see what you think once you have tried it, or have you?)
Christine |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 80
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 9:48 pm: | |
forgot to make another point clear...I am NOT promoting using the photonic therapy as an alternative to treatment where veterinary intervention is indicated...if a horse/dog needs meds and professional care, it needs meds and this is what the veterinary profession is all about (like promoting that there are alternatives to antibiotics for infectious diseases - not what I mean!). However, for the occasional aches and pains and the things that can be dealt with by the normal horse owner or some palliative care for a horse in discomfort, this is what photonic therapy has been great for in my hands...and to figure out "where" pain may be located since I usually get a very strong reaction. Would I want to apply photonic therapy to a horse that is 3-legged lame or bleeding profusely as an alternative to calling the vet? Absolutely not! Does not replace the vet in critical situation...just wanted to make sure so you won't think I am totally NUTS.... |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18209
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 7:25 am: | |
Hello Christine,
There are several problems with your proposition. Perhaps the most important is that I do not have a need for such therapy in my practice. Where I have horses with what you describe as the "occasional aches and pains or all crimped up" or even many more serious illnesses, I get them well quickly using traditional therapy which may include massage. I certainly have horses with serious illnesses that I cannot make well and in cases where it seems sensible we will try acupuncture. But why should I choose shining little red lights on the skin over say shaking chicken bones in a gourd rattle while murmuring prayers in foreign tongues? The world is full of such alternative therapies I am afraid and my day is already pretty full.
A broader reason I am not interested in this is stated in my post above, "Medical history is clear, there is no poorer medical evidence than personal experience to support efficacy". People just as smart or smarter than me and you used therapies that were harmful to their patients based on their personal experience and the belief that what they were doing helped their patients. The history of medicine and science is full of folks who have made discoveries and developed strong beliefs just like you have Christine that with careful testing were shown to be ineffective.
That all said, I do have a story of experimenting with a similar unit. In the 80's a race training friend, home for the off season, had obtained a similar device on the track and after having worked with it some time he believed it was the cat's pajamas for diagnosing and treating muscle, tendon, bone ailments. We did some single blinded testing with it over the summer and he sold it that fall. Concerning heart bar shoes, I don't use them either.
I do have one question Christine, if this device is so beneficial, why do you seem to have so many animals around you that need it? Besides our small and large animal practice, we have many pets and horses but everyone is well almost all the time. If you have found this machine helps you relate to horses and horse owners that is great and you know my feeling on this is, "if you think it works and it is not harmful the last thing you should do is quit on my say-so".
DrO |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 8:13 am: | |
The last thing I wanted was to kindle a debate. It had been almost 2 years since the last post on this topic and a lot can come to light (ha!) in 2 years. I was simply seeking current experiences.
That said, I am disappointed in what I perceive as a dismissive tone on the topic from Dr. O. You and your site are well respected and I am not taking issue with your opinion- I did solicit it- just the mocking manner in which you present it. It is said that every original idea is first ridiculed, then vigorously attacked, and finally taken for granted. That you would place acupuncture and chiropractic in a "similar position" - well I don't even know how to respond to that.
I really appreciate the feedback so far and hope to hear more experiences from people who have actually used the device for the purposes it is suggested for and who can share their results here. I have an open mind on this and I would hope most every topic and would like to learn more so I can make a more informed decision about a major purchase. Thanks again. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18218
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 9:26 am: | |
Anne, the discussions are supposed to be debates so don't worry about that, but could you point out where I mock the other posters? I will apologize for any such behavior if I have done it. My dictionary defines mocking as "scornful or holding up to ridicule". The only mocking statement I see above is me being implicated as being "close minded" yet you did not find a problem with this.
DrO |
Janet Erwin
New Member
Username: jberwin
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 10:03 am: | |
Regardless of where you are on the Photonic Therapy debate, calling it a "little red light" is a choice of words intended to trivialize the treatment.
What we do know is that we DON'T know what it is doing. But, unless these people are liars, and don't think they are, we can assume that the therapy is doing SOMETHING.
So, can we agree that there is an effect? We just don't know what? |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1261
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 11:11 am: | |
Its seems to me that buying a therapeutic ultrasound machine at a fraction of the cost, that is proven to cause internal heat would be key here.. The Photonic Therapy unit is suppose to cause heat for circulation correct???
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2611
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 11:50 am: | |
What is the "red light" supposed to do and how? I had a friend that had it used on her horses but I could never understand what it was supposed to do as far as helping the horse who was slightly lame on the right front. I know that some therapies help by increasing circulation; is that what the Photonic Therapy is supposed to do also? Why is only the red color used? Or are other colors used too? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18222
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 1:10 pm: | |
Welcome Janet,
The problem is that it is "a little red light". Whether you consider this trivial or not seems to me a judgement you have made. And no, we cannot assume it is doing something curative, which is my whole point. While we may agree the horses are getting better, whether the light is the cause or not requires well designed experiments. To expound on my example above, you can shake chicken bones in gourds and chant over sick horses and the majority will get well, but do you think it is the treatment that caused the horse to get well?
DrO |
Janet Erwin
New Member
Username: jberwin
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
Let's not confuse alternative medicine with voo doo! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18223
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 4:57 pm: | |
We have a topic with articles and discussions on what is alternative medicine and the nature of separating the wheat from the chaff when it comes to treatment. You will find this at, Member's Services members_only » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Alternative Medicine and Epistemology. There you will also find a recounting of my own mistake with therapy which I thought useful only to discover later was not possible, see DrO's Big Mistake in the above referenced topic.
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2614
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 5:33 pm: | |
Dr. O. A mistake?!! Can't wait to read about it! |
DEB W
Member
Username: dwawz
Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 6:01 pm: | |
I personally use a medical doctor, chiropractor and photonic therapy. I do not believe that there is only one way to treat any given ailment or injury. The body has tremendous healing power, faith, positive attitude, sometimes downright stubborness all play into this power of healing: so does an assist from medical practitioners, and alternative sources.
We all look at things differently, some need facts, some see results and that is enough. I have seen some really great things happen through alternative care and will not turn away from it.
For my horses (all 14 of them) they see vets, dentists, and the 'little red light'. They get vaccinations, regular worming good exercise and good turn out. I imprint the new foals (which a lot of people think is a little out there too) I manage to get by.
Photonic Therapy is like needleless acupuncture. It works off electrical/chemical fields in our bodies. No heat is involved. The light itself stimulates the acupuncture point. This is a very simple explanation, if you would like a more in depth explanation contact me at debwawz@msn.com |
Catherine McCourt
Member
Username: kstud
Post Number: 124
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 6:09 pm: | |
Can I just say that even though I am willing to give most therapies a try I would think less of Dr O if he were in any way to endorse something that cannot be proven to be effective. That is the beauty of this site, any advice from Dr O or the articles is backed by solid research and we can use it safely. Dr O,s personal opinion of other treatments is really none of our concern and nor should it be. If it works for you and you are happy then that is fine and isn't it great that we have a site where we can dispassionately discuss such things and ask for other peoples experiences. |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 6:12 pm: | |
Dr. O- to be clear I did not accuse you of mocking a poster. I did characterize your opinion as "mocking" and I stand by that: "But why should I choose shining little red lights on the skin over say shaking chicken bones in a gourd rattle while murmuring prayers in foreign tongues? The world is full of such alternative therapies I am afraid and my day is already pretty full." Yeah, I'd classify that as scornful at the minimum.
It seems to me your point keeps coming back to it might do something but it is just as likely to be the body's normal healing result and not a result of the light therapy. To which I wonder, could ALL these people be wrong? Do you take issue with Dr. McLaren's credentials or any of the information presented on his website or in his materials? Have you ever actually read his materials or spoken to the man? You concede that you tried the therapy more than 20 years ago and you call that your experience- is it possible that there have been advances in the technology you are not taking into consideration?
I had a headache this morning so bad I took some Motrin and went back to bed. I woke up and it was better but not gone. I drank a Coke and it went away. Motrin sells an awful lot of product for headaches- maybe it worked a little, maybe it was the rest or the caffeine, who knows? I do know next time I will still take it probably.
I still hope to hear from more posters with actual experience with the unit. It would be refreshing if you (the doctor) would have a bit of an open mind on the issue. Contempt prior to investigation is not a learned mindset to me. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18235
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 7:39 am: | |
I apologize that my attempt at humor to illustrate a point offended you but the point was to be critical of the machine. I do not see a reason to prefer shining little red lights on horses for anything other than the possible benefits I list above over shaking chicken bones in a gourd.
You continue to misrepresent my state of mind and now misrepresent my knowledge about this procedure. This is a modality I have investigated before, (see the original post on this discussion) have had some personal experience as outlined above, and prior to posting to your response spent almost an hour looking for any new research. I simply find no good scientific evidence of efficacy for the wide range of diseases it purports to treat nor do I know of a mechanism of action for most it's claims and that is after having read their explanation and reviewing the literature on photonic therapy. It is my job here to point this out and if you interpret that as contempt, again I apologize for causing you offense.
DrO |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 9:17 am: | |
But here is where I see a HUGE difference Dr. O between photonic therapy and shaking chicken bones and why I am baffled by your responses along those lines. To my knowledge, there have not been numerous posts here and on other equine care boards attesting to positive personal experience by shaking chicken bones and chanting. None that I know of anyway.
I also do not know of any medical professional who promotes shaking chicken bones nor any who market a kit for it.
There is a huge difference to me. That you do not even concede a glimmer of "well there could be something to it," in the face of so many testimonials is surprising to me. Please do not read that as anything but wonder on my part. I mean no disrespect to you and if you have taken any from my comments please accept my apologies.
I still am not clear if your personal experience with this torch is more recent than you have shared here, or if you are speaking from the personal experience you state occured in the 80's. |
Erika L
Member
Username: erika
Post Number: 805
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 9:54 am: | |
I must say, I am glad to see I'm not the only one who "get's into it" on this wonderful site! Please remember that it is very hard to tell someone's "tone" when it is in written format. One can't assume contempt, sometimes it's sarcastic humor. I've been on both sides of that assumption!
That said--you all got me wondering...the placebo effect is well known in human medicine. I, for one, have been the beneficiary of such. I say beneficiary because if something works without intrusion or side affects, yippee!
Is there any evidence of it working in animals? Or does one have to have an expectation of relief and/or understanding of being treated in order to result in a placebo effect?
Wait! Before anyone assumes I am taking sides on the light therapy--I am speaking in general, not of this particular treatment. Dr. O, would you rather I put this question into a new thread? |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 7:43 pm: | |
hmmmmm...I have been pondering why I have to keep thinking about the various issues and thoughts posted on this thread and why this whole thing is still buggin' me and I just had a thought...
I work in the medical field in an area where there is relatively little interest by companies in doing clinical trials since there is no perceived market for any new products (i.e. the people who would benefit from new meds are in countries where they cannot afford them)...so, as a result some potentially VERY PROMISING therapeutics are never put into clinical studies because these studies are just too expensive to be done right. This also includes what is called "label- extension" studies where you investigate whether a drug that is licensed for a specific disease would not also work for another disease. However there is PLENTY of anecdotal info out there from physicians who, as part of normal clinical practice, use the drug at their discretion "off-label" and therefore accumulate information that is also not necessarily published, and the result of controlled trials etc.
I think one of the problems with evidence based medicine in the equine vet field is that there are also few sponsors of controlled trials, therefore, few trials are done and a lot of the "evidence" that is out there is mainly anecdotal. The real drugs and vaccines that have a commercial sponsor and a reasonable market of course undergo clinical testing since this is a prerequisite for marketing approval. However, when you look at these studies and the size of the trials that were done to "proof" that a product is effective, you will see that they are just about as big as they has to be to provide some statistical significance in a well selected group of "horse patients". The real data about whether a product works or not then get created in the after-market phase of use - this is also the period where adverse events and undesired or surprising other "good effects" show up (think Vioxx). Does that mean that only products that are being used in horses and have undergone clinical trials because there is a sponsor are the ones who truly work? , or could it indeed be the case that there are promising new modalities out there that, IF someone were to fund the studies and actually check out their utility, would end up quite successful? I guess it all comes down to money in the end and a sponsor who will benefit from those sales. Until then, I guess we will have lots of discussions around these topics and issues especially if there are things out there that people believe in because they worked for them...and I think there is nothing wrong with this if no harm is done...BTW...when you look at the "efficacy" data for lets say a commonly used human drug, and look over the results of a "pivotal" trial (i.e. the one that shows whether it has benefit of not and is usually used to produce data for licensure and FDA approval), you will see that even with the BEST drugs, the trial result will show that there were individuals that did not benefit or where the effect was minor or just like placebo or the ones who actually fared worse. These trials, for a reason, include LOTS of volunteers since in a heterogenous population of patients, you just need to look at a lot of different individuals to tease out an effect and decide whether this effect is good enough to provide a benefit for the new drug. Considering that in the horsey world and with the occasional use and anecdotal info from products like photonic therapy, no one will be able to really do a controlled, randomized and in this case placebo controlled study to produce clear evidence, we'll likely be stuck with "it works for me!!!" as the evidence....Just wonder what would happen if someone actually did a good trial....hmmmmmm
Soooo, the greatest thing about this website remains that through the info Dr. O posts, one can see how SOLID the evidence is around a given treatment or diagnostic option and become an informed horse owner...That's why I LOVE my light torch!
Also, Dr. O, when I offered to loan you my little red light, it was not meant for you as the vet to be used in your vet practice but for you as a horse owner to be "played with". Never mind, though, I understand completely where you are coming from and respect that.
Christine |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18239
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 9:56 pm: | |
Anne I love it when you talk to me about the subject and not my short comings as a human being. My sense of humor may be a bit dry but after fifty plus years hard to change.
Concerning the photonic unit it is amazing what a little scientific mumbo jumbo and a high cost can do to boost your reputation and positive outcome percentage but I too am surprised that more have not supported rattling chicken bones. I know for a fact it would boost the positive outcome rate about 20% (no kidding). But have your read the disclamer on the McLaren Photonic Therapy Web Site? If not let me present it here verbatim:
Disclaimer
The McLaren Photonic Therapy system is not FDA approved for human use and this equipment is sold for personal use only. The purchaser must be aware of the possible danger of treating pancreatitis (insulin dependant Type l diabetes) without considering the possibility of a drop in blood glucose, which could result in the equivalent of an overdose of insulin.
The human manual is included, as human transpositional points are used on the animal.
While equipment for animal use in America is generally FDA exempt, it is not intended to replace primary health care professional consultation and diagnosis. It is suggested this method be used post diagnostically.
The McLaren Photonic Therapy unit, of itself has no healing power of any kind, and no claim as such is made or implied. No warranty is given or implied as to the effectiveness or otherwise of this form of treatment or the formulae offered. As the method of application in using the light is out of McLaren Photonic Therapy’s control, no responsibility is accepted for any treatment effects, condition progress, or sequel arising after treatment.
Is there anything more to be said?
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2623
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 11:08 pm: | |
"no healing power of any kind, and no claim as such is made or implied" ?? And so, why do you use it? What is it supposed to do and how?
Guess I'll check out the website out of curiosity; can't take it anymore! |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 973
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 8:10 am: | |
Well, it's obvious that McLaren hopes & prays that nobody reads the fine print... |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 420
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 8:21 am: | |
Oh well, topic closed I guess. |
Janet Erwin
New Member
Username: jberwin
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 8:37 am: | |
Okay, everybody. Throw all your vitamins away. They have claims similar on the side of the package. Get rid of 'em! All of 'em. Vitamin C, Vitamin E, all that crappity crap your doctor told you to take for your immune system. Read the label. Same type of claim. Now, go back to your physician and and demand to know why this voo doo medicine is still on pharmacy shelves!! |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 975
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 10:57 am: | |
You're right, Janet. Many (but not all - calcium is a good example of a proven claim) of the claims made for vitamins and herbals and supplements in general aren't proven. And those claims aren't regulated by the FDA - that industry gets away with a LOT less stringent regulation vs the pharmaceutical industry which must have proof of efficacy and safety before drugs are approved by the FDA.
It pays to be a wise consumer, do the research, and check with trusted sources long before outlaying the cash. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18249
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 10:32 am: | |
I apologize for this late response, but this these ideas are so far afield I fill the need to interrupt here.
Janet I do not have any of these disclaimers on my vitamins which provide recommended NRC requirements. Fran if you do not get enough of the widely accepted list of vitamins you will die there are no questions about the importance of this group of nutrients. This is a demonstrated fact.
There is a wide spread feeling that excess amounts of some vitamins are helpful. When this is looked at critically it is another example of inappropriate or at least ineffective therapy.
DrO |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 14
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 11:33 am: | |
Dr. O- as earlier pointed out by another poster the danger in email and posting is the tendency by the reader to interpret them at will. You must know (because I have already stated this) that I mean no disrespect to you. I sense not- which is why I repeat myself here- I mean no disrespect to you.
Could you address my remaining questions?
1. ...could ALL these people be wrong?
2. Do you take issue with Dr. McLaren's credentials?
3. ...is it possible that there have been advances in the technology you are not taking into consideration? (in the 20 years since you personally used one which may or may not be the same thing- unclear on that too)
You have made a trip to the website and seized upon the disclaimer commonly found on many presumably acceptable remedies. Was there anything else there that was new information for you?
I know you said in a previous post that these discussions are supposed to be debates, but I assure you I am not moving in that direction, I am a seeker and not a stirrer. I want to make a seeker out of you is what is dawning on me, and at least on this issue I do not see that occuring. I do appreciate them time and effort you expend here and on the many, many other topics demanding your resources and expertise. I look forward to your answers if you would be willing to add them here. Thanks. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18250
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 10:51 am: | |
Taking your questions in order Anne:
1) Yes.
2) I have no issues with Dr McLaren's credentials.
3) As of the refereed published research available at the end of last week I see no evidence of efficacy for many of the claims made for this product.
Anne while I appreciate your concern for my methods of epistomolgy, there is a difference in a seeker of knowledge and a seeker of opinions. I love the country song line, "if you don't stand for something you will fall for anything". I stand for evidence based medicine and evidence based medicine is clear that without well run experiments people, doctors, and scientist are perfectly capable of fooling themselves.
DrO |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 82
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 7:12 pm: | |
Just FYI and food for thought.....this is directly from an NIH site from the National Center for Alternative and Complementary Medicine...I would think that this is about the most reputable source of medical info one may be able to find...just have a read!!
Interesting...hmmmmmm
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/backgrounds/energymed.htm
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/backgrounds/mindbody.htm
and some more other interesting stuff:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=666450&isnumber=1463 5
BTW....the "claim" on the McLaren website says this:
Photonic Therapy ®
is a new way of using an age-old Chinese acupuncture treatment method
to restore healthy tissue, relieve pain and rejuvenate muscles after strain and stress....
.....When an acupuncture point is stimulated, it has increased electrical conductivity. By stimulating acupuncture points in a given combination, the brain can be stimulated to release various neuro-chemicals which cause the body to heal. This neuro-stimulation re-opens healing channels the body masks in response to prolonged pain that, without neuro-stimulation, generally leads to chronic conditions.....
The infra-red band has the ability to penetrate skin and stimulate classic acupuncture points in much the same way that an acupuncture needle works. As the infra-red light passes through the skins its wavelength is altered, creating the stimulating effect upon body tissue through photonic stimulation at the cellular level. It is this photonic stimulation, or "Photonic Therapy" that triggers the re-opening of healing processes.
I guess the next topic we should discuss is the Tellington TTouch....hmmm.....
Christine |
Lee
Member
Username: paul303
Post Number: 857
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 7:32 pm: | |
I depend on Dr. O, and this site, for rock solid scientifically proven facts. After all, theory and testimonials are all over the internet. I can find them anywhere ( and many of them find ME - completely unsolicited ). In this confusing onslaught of information, I know I can come to this site and Dr.O will supply me with the facts...and only the facts. It is then MY decision to try this product or not. It is not Dr.O's place to urge usage of a product with no controlled studies, nor to do his own testing for the company and endorse it. He's here to relate his opinion, based on logic and facts - we can then take ALL the information and decide to use the product or not.
I love the fact that I can find the facts here - ones that will help in my decisions ( after all, sometimesIusemagnets ). |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 83
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 9:04 pm: | |
YUP!!!! EXACTLY! It is one's opinion that is conveyed here and not an endorsement. And everyone is entitled to just that, an opinion. After all, this post started with a member asking about experience with this tool, good or bad, the request was for EXPERIENCE, i.e. USED IT and it did/or did not work, right?
Like my husband usually says...You don't have to agree or disagree with me, this is not a competition, I just want you to hear me out and consider my views...that's all! (I hate it when he is soooo right  )
Christine |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18244
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 6:21 am: | |
Christine, I spent over an hour looking at the photonic research from the Pub Med site and none of what they were talking about looked like what this machine does. In medicine the most commonly used definition of photonic therapy is completely different and refers to the light activation of photoactive drugs. Going to your first reference above I see nothing that supports the idea this is beneficial therapy other than what I reference already.
Lee we do try to provide the best in evidence based medicine but much of equine medicine does not have excellent scientific support so often we must rely on experience and tradition but we try to make sure it is sensible.
DrO |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 84
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 2:21 pm: | |
Oh, sorry! I should have been more clear and separate my last post into to topics...I found the NCCAM references of general interest since they nicely summarized what technologies seem to have promise and which ones are more of a stretch.
The excerpt from the McLaren website was more to remind that he is actually referring to acupuncture and stimulation of acupuncture point with light energy...so to me the major area of interest was the utility of acupuncture in general and secondarily whether there is any evidence that stimulation of acupuncture points with other than needle manipulation, electo-currents or whatever else is used has been demonstrated.
Sorry, I should have explained this (you can't read my mind??????  ).
I am fully aware of the fact that traditional laser therapy has a different setup and is used for other purposes...
As I said, just wanted to provide more potentially interesting tidbits of fact so that whoever is interested in alternative medicine can read and take from this info what they may feel is interesting/relevant/important.
Christine |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18248
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 10:20 am: | |
Chrisitne, wouldn't this really be alternative-alternative medicine. You are using an alternative method to apply stimulation to the alternative therapy of acupuncture? On the other hand where compared, experiments often show it does not seem to matter where or how you apply the acupuncture. But I have not seen experiemtns where little red lights were used.
 DrO |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 977
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 9:41 pm: | |
Oops...DrO, I mis-posted. Of course there is plenty of proof that vitamins are essential (I was typing faster than my brain was working)...I meant to reference herbals and things such as diet pills, where the claims are great and the proof is lacking. |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1319
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 7:36 pm: | |
Dr. O not sure if you want me to start a new thread.. but here is some ''new'' info on this light therapy.. http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002355.html
I would appreciate your feelings on what they are saying about it now..
Thanks..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2825
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 8:06 pm: | |
I don't know if this is related or not, but I just read a very interesting article on the DrudgeReport (or maybe it was Fox) about some incurable genetic deseases seen often in the Menonites and Amish. The disease causes severe jaundice. The only way to deal with the disease is by having the sufferer sleep unclothed under a blue light. Sounds strange, but it's been proven to work. Am I going to have to totally rethink my position on colored lights curing disease and conditions?? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18522
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 6:37 am: | |
Ann we briefly have touched on some of the benefits and uses of light in the treatment of disease (April 10th). But there is nothing in this article that remotely resembles "McClaren's photonic process" and their claims. You need to read carefully as to what exactly is being described. The common medical and scientific use of the word "photonics" refers to the use of light to activate drugs once they have reached their target organ. A proven treatment modality.
DrO |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 85
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 7:12 pm: | |
Yes, Ann, the McLaren Photonic therapy is based on the stimulation of acupuncture points...so with McLaren, you are talking benefits of acupuncture with stimulation by light energy, in principle also a well accepted treatment modality, the controversy comes when you question whether light energy is strong enough to stimulate acupuncture points...acupressure does, and red light definitely goes trough tissues....
Christine |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18534
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 9:58 pm: | |
Christine, in the world of evidence based medicine equine acupuncture is not a well supported treatment modality. Here is a recent review of the veterinary medical literature by one of the most respected and scientifically rigorous veterinary journals in the world:
J Vet Intern Med. 2006 May-Jun;20(3):480-8.
Effectiveness of acupuncture in veterinary medicine: systematic review.
Habacher G, Pittler MH, Ernst E.
University of Veterinary Medicine Vienna, Austria.
Acupuncture is a popular complementary treatment option in human medicine. Increasingly, owners also seek acupuncture for their animals. The aim of the systematic review reported here was to summarize and assess the clinical evidence for or against the effectiveness of acupuncture in veterinary medicine. Systematic searches were conducted on Medline, Embase, Amed, Cinahl, Japana Centra Revuo Medicina and Chikusan Bunken Kensaku. Hand-searches included conference proceedings, bibliographies, and contact with experts and veterinary acupuncture associations. There were no restrictions regarding the language of publication. All controlled clinical trials testing acupuncture in any condition of domestic animals were included. Studies using laboratory animals were excluded. Titles and abstracts of identified articles were read, and hard copies were obtained. Inclusion and exclusion of studies, data extraction, and validation were performed independently by two reviewers. Methodologic quality was evaluated by means of the Jadad score. Fourteen randomized controlled trials and 17 nonrandomized controlled trials met our criteria and were, therefore, included. The methodologic quality of these trials was variable but, on average, was low. For cutaneous pain and diarrhea, encouraging evidence exists that warrants further investigation in rigorous trials. Single studies reported some positive intergroup differences for spinal cord injury, Cushing's syndrome, lung function, hepatitis, and rumen acidosis. These trials require independent replication. On the basis of the findings of this systematic review, there is no compelling evidence to recommend or reject acupuncture for any condition in domestic animals. Some encouraging data do exist that warrant further investigation in independent rigorous trials. |
Dawn Anderson
Member
Username: dr3ssag3
Post Number: 28
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 11:27 pm: | |
My massage therapist has used photonic therapy on me when I'm experiencing a fibromyalgia "flare-up," and I have to say that it seems to really help! I've just got to figure out how to get her out to my barn to work on Contessa... |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18546
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 8:07 am: | |
Though we never recommend you stop doing something you think is helping Dawn, you have to remember that for hundreds of years, many medical practises that were actually harmful to the patient were considered helpful by those who did the procedure and those who it was practised on.
I presume you have the chronic unexplained deep pain disorder that is characterized by what is usually a nonprogressive disease but with recurrent periods of exacerbation's. When worse, you may use several therapies that include massage and photonics and following treatments you get to feeling better. There are many more likely explanations of this phenomena that include just the normal course of this disorder other than shining little red lights on your skin.
I would like to note that in one study the Mayo clinic did find acupuncture significantly improved the symptoms of fibromyalgia but acupressure was inconclusive. They did not study little red lights.
DrO |
DEB W
Member
Username: dwawz
Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 9:05 am: | |
WOW Dr. O I know you are not a believer in alternative medicine but you do come across that anyone who does believe in it or uses it "is just one sandwich short of a picnic" to think that it may work. Maybe you don't mean to sound that way---but not everything starts with a study. |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 86
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 9:48 am: | |
I was about to ask the same questions, Dr. O....of all the posts I have been following over the years, what is it about photonic therapy (the stimulation of acupuncture points with light) that has you so upset. I think by now everyone has gotten the point that there are no studies published that prove that stimulation of acupuncture points with light energy does work, there are limited studies to prove that acupuncture works in horses, and for people there are limited studies that show a clear benefit for certain types of pain management. According to the article you posted for us recently (the meta analysis paper), "...on the basis of the findings of this systematic review, there is no compelling evidence to recommend or reject acupuncture for any condition in domestic animals. Some encouraging data do exist that warrant further investigation in independent rigorous trials.....". To me, this reads that there is just NOT ENOUGH INFO OUT THERE to recommend use (other meta analyses papers for various topics do say - DOES NOT WORK when there is no evidence, they don't all end like this - and believe me, in my job I read these A LOT!!!).
There have been many HA members that keep saying that this either works/worked for them or their animals and that they have seen clear benefit (Dawn, as to the fibromyalgia benefit....I have used photonic therapy for pain management myself and have found it very useful....you can only take so many Advil a week....). There are still members asking for more info and keep posting questions - many horse owners are very interested in alternative therapy for their animals - this is just a fact and that's also why so many veterinary offices now also include acupuncture services, chiropractic, massage and other alternative approaches and modalities.
I do not believe there is a good reason to say categorically that just because there are no randomized controlled studies for alternative therapy that have basis is traditional chinese medicine and therefore occidental medicine, which is more evidence based is the only thing that counts...never mind that photonic therapy is really alternative, alternative medicine..I think we have gone beyond that by now.
From my point of view (and as I said earlier, I work in the medical field and have lots to do with human medicine, evidence based and not, as well as clinical trials for registration or use of therapies), there is benefit of evidence based medicine when it comes to regulating marketing, sales and adverse events (US legal systems help with this....) - since claims have to be supported by facts and product characteristics so that if litigation arrives because someone gets hurt, you have clearly set the boundaries for claims. Does that prevent physician from using drugs off label at their own risk? Of course not! If they see benefit, they will try to help the patient (and do no harm!). If then some manufacturer smells a new market or if clinical data are needed to provide a solid recommendation for use, then someone does the clinical trials to provide the evidence for regulators or medical professionals who provide guidelines and recommendations for use. This DOES NOT MEAN that only products that come with controlled clinical evidence have merit. This is were discretion and professional judgement comes in. Just ask the thousands of persons that regularly and successfully get treated with acupuncture for pain management, never mind that there are no studies to prove that the benefit they personally experience is "real".....if all acupuncture does is make you believe that the pain is gone - FABULOUS!!! It does NOT HURT ANY MORE!!!
I have seen photonic therapy (stimulation of acupuncture points with light) elicit clear, and reproducible responses in horses and dogs who, I presume, have no idea about the value of alternative medicine, or controlled clinical trials as part of evidence based medicine...
So, I think we got it - NO EVIDENCE AVAILABLE, this is alternative, alternative medicine, people are interested in it and are using it successfully. Some prefer to use treatment modalities that are solidly supported by high quality clinical studies, some are ok to use something with the understanding that no clinical studies are available and base use on their professional experience and judgement .... that is ok I presume....
I DO rest my case now....promise....no more posts from me on this topic....
Christine |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2834
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 10:30 am: | |
I personally am not convinced that Photonic therapy does much. However, I did want to say that I have used both accupuncture and accupressure. I also have mild fibromyalgia, at least so my MD says. I also have two types of arthritis and I've got a degenerated disk in my neck from an old injury. So, as you can imagine, I get pretty sore and achey at times. (Getting old "is a bitch!") At my doctors suggestion, I started going to an accupressurist and after three treatments I started feeling a lot better. After 5 treatments, I was the most pain free and felt better than I have in many, many years. So, I highly recommend this therapy IF you go to a reputable person. |
Dawn Anderson
Member
Username: dr3ssag3
Post Number: 29
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 10:18 pm: | |
I thought photonic therapy was developed and used by NASA to help stimulate healing in zero gravity. At least that's what the makers of the machine used on me stated in their literature. Considering the federal government's seemingly flippant attitude to "alternate therapies," I thought NASA's use of the technology to speak volumes. http://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/SBIR/successes/ss/8-035text.html
I should also add that we've used the "light" to stimulate healing right after I had a large mole removed. Call me crazy but I SWEAR the size of the sore was cut in 1/2 overnight, and it seemed to completely heal up, without scarring, in just a couple of days and with 2 treatments of light therapy. But she used the UV light, not the red light. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18550
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 8:30 am: | |
Taking your posts one at a time.
DEB,
every intelligent action starts with a study, whether it is deciding what to have for breakfast or making a manned mission to mars. In complicated biological systems it is a valid question to ask, "what principles are you going to use to make conclusions?". The history and science of health and medicine is very clear on this principle: "personal experience is the lowest level of proof and often reaches incorrect conclusions". In the 5 levels of evidence based medicine it is the lowest level of proof. Note that evidence based medicine does not state that personal experience necessarily reaches incorrect conclusions just that the conclusions are unreliable.
Christine,
you misinterpret my reason for posting here. It is not that I am upset, it is that it is my job to reply to postings that imply or claim this is a therapy based on science, when the reality is their whole site is one meant to obfuscate valid scientific processes with the vague implied claims of healing they make about their product. I have to say when you see a site that implies that shining little red lights on horses will benefit colicky and laminitic horses it is difficult to be positive. However despite my feelings on the product I think I have been fair in evaluating the scientific evidence supporting the use of this product for anything other than warming the skin: there is none. I note that on visiting their site (as I have many times in the past and prior to each discussion on the subject) today I can no longer find the disclaimer that was there just last week and published above.
Dawn,
the study of the stimulation of healing of skin wounds in limited light environments is what the NASA folks are studying and not what the folks at McClaren are claiming as the reason to buy their unit.
Everyone,
On Horseadvice.com we allow anyone to post anything they think is useful, as long as it is not profane or rude. But, all posts will be measured against the current science of equine health and medicine using the principles of evidence based medicine and then filtered through my experience with over ten thousand horses. Is there anyone here who believes this site would be better off NOT adhering to evidence based medicine principles. And unless you are not interested in what the literature and my experience say about a point why all the general protestations and I would even say implications of emotionally based unfairness?
Note, I do appreciate any specific facts, experiences and counter-points to my views and always enjoy responding to those. I use to think that was a good thing.
DrO |
Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1029
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 10:36 am: | |
Okay....well I think I might add a few things as well with my sports medicine background and nursing background. In the human model (and I am sure it might be similar in animals however I can not comment there) when free nerve endings are stimulated, impulses are transmitted to the brain via specific nerves and neural pathways though a rather complicated process that then travel up the spinal cord to multiple brain centers. Acupuncture in humans has been known to at times interrupt these pain pathways providing relief in some, but as for the term acupressure (which is sometimes used synonymously for trigger point release) having taken an equine version of the course (I thought I was enrolling in a course that was teaching more of trigger point release modality which can help muscular pain syndromes) I found it was Chinese based medicine that supposedly allows Chi to flow more freely by scratching certain points to add energy or applying gentle pressure to release energy to allow for chi to flow more freely. I had another nurse for a partner and when we extensively asked scientific questions as to why any of that worked they could not be answered, so we thought more so the horses rather enjoyed being scratched or massaged but in no way could we associate a specific point with better liver function or heart function etc. Sorry. Then when the clinician totally claimed most vets were quacks, and vaccinations were poison, we found it very ironic that it was a vet who saved the life of a horse at that very same clinic who impaled herself ripping away much of her chest musculature...not pressing a point on the mare's ankle. So unless yours was Chinese medicine based Sara, and it may have been, there is a chance you probably had more of a myofacial release treatment, which is pressure applied to trigger points or sensitive inflamed tissue that occurs bilaterally (the contra lateral one being more sensitive) that are associated with pain in the knee, hip, elbow, back, shoulder, foot, ankle and upper extremities, which can create a general aching along the limb. Once that tension is released through a specific process at those points, pain in certain areas of the body may decrease but that to is a complicated process in relation to interrupting the pain pathways to the brain.
I have seen photonic therapy and many of the horses lip smacked but after touching the light it was warm, so I would equate it with superficial heat therapy such as using a heat pack as Dr. O mentions, which may relieve pain on a short term basis but in no way has healing properties of tissues such as Ultrasound or other deep heating modalities that have been proven to increase tissue healing response times.
Perhaps as Dr. O always says these animals heal in spite of us.
We had a natural horseman at our last barn give a clinic of the horrors of tack then try to sell bitless bridles and these machines, apparently the natural horsemanship was his scheme to sell these products he said the light therapy could cure melanomas. And I just smiled because if light could cure tumors, we as humans would be using similar modalities on human tumors. And trust me, I am a fan of alternative treatments if there is a scientific basis that can be proven, massage, myofascial release etc. The poor horse whose owner got one for his back pain never got any better and in fact with out vet intervention got worse. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2838
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 11:23 am: | |
Corinne, you're right; I had the trigger point release, which the therapist called accupressure, but he did go into a long explanation of the different types of accupressure and explain what he did, I just didn't remember. He would gradually apply pressure to certain points and it would hurt, then he'd back off and do it again with a little more pressure. Each visit he'd get a little "deeper" and I could tolerate the pressure easier. The first time he touched a spot I could barely stand to be just lightly touched (somewhere near the bas of my spine)
I, like you, belive in many herbal treatments and some alternative therapies, but think they need to be used in conjunction with traditional medicine. I'm also very leery of most advertised alternative methods/supplements, etc. I was very sceptical of this accupressure, or myofacial release treatment, and was surprised when it really helped. |
Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1030
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 1:58 pm: | |
Well I guess I should clarify that for myofascial release, or trigger point therapy which I think may be a bit different, there is a scientific basis for it's working Sara. In myofascial release, where either injury, stress, repetative movements, poor posture or fatigues contributes to changes in the length tension relationship of the muscles and the fascia (connective tissue) covering the muscles, over time a specific pain pattern results. At the center of the pain is something called the gamma gain which is essentially the muscle in spasm or protective guarding and it causes the muscles to become hypersensative to stretch due to increased input along the gamma efferent nerves to the muscle spindles...see told you it was long winded and hard to understand...LOL...but essentially it causes cyles of pain that further promote muscle spasm that cause the fascia to shorten even more and cause more pain....it's a vicious cycle so in this treatment the provider uses different techniques to attempt to place the muscle and the fascia in positions that remove the stress from the tissues resulting in a decrease in the activity of the fascia that is sending pain impulses to the gamma efferent nerves thus causing a reduction in the pain. In the long run however, body mechanics need to change to an optimal level of functioning or the pain will return.
Not only in sports medicine but as a nurse, we learn massage etc, and there is a place for some of these treatments to be used in conjuction with traditional medicine but they all need to complement what the treatment team is providing and there is always a scientific basis for our treatments. Some of them, ie..touch therapy has psychological benefits because it's the laying of hands on the patient and can decrease stress which is further contributing to muscle tension and the pain cycle.
Glad what ever you had done working for you!
And if this photonic therapy is ever scientifically proven to work and does become part of the approach for medical providers to heal pain etc...I will use the treatments myself for my chronic foot tendon and bone pain issues...Until then, it's traditional medicine and complemenative therapies...same for my horse and dogs. |
Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: corinne
Post Number: 1031
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 2:34 pm: | |
Oh I forgot Sara UV light in the treatment of Jaundice is different.....there is scientific based research on UV light for the treatment of jaundice but I will have to get some research for you on MD consult, a physician only based web site a physician friend gave me access to. In fact we use UV light "we have nicknamed them Bili lights" in the NICU all the time but have to ensure that the babies have little sunglasses on, much like you would wear on a tanning bed due to the dangers such lights have on eyes. But UV light helps break down the bilirubin that causes jaundice. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2839
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 3:27 pm: | |
Wow, Corinne, thanks for all the good information! |
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