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Sarah White
Member
Username: Louwhite
Post Number: 16
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 12:42 pm: |   |
I just came across Photonic Therapy and am wondering if anyone has any experience, good or bad, to relay. Here's a website with scientific papers: http://www.mclarenphotonictherapy.com/Applied_Vet.htm |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12943
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 7:49 am: | |
The problem is that the paper talks about everything from the effects of sunlight on the human skin to lasers used is surgery. Yes these are valid points and therapies.
But the idea of shining a red light on acupuncture points has no scientific support that I can find.
DrO |
DEB W
Member
Username: Dwawz
Post Number: 8
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 7, 2005 - 11:34 am: | |
Sarah and Dr. O
I used to do acupuncture treatments then started using photonic therapy. I have had good results. I have attended a couple workshops with Dr. McLaren and use his system regularly with my horses..and dogs and cats and yes even my family.
I certainly do not understand all the scientific reasoning behind it, but I do know I have had some positive results. If you have questions I'm sure he would be happy to answer them.
Deb |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13082
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 8:41 am: | |
DEB,
Thank you for your input. I do want you to consider how poor our ability to draw correct conclusions in complicated biological systems if our observations are not carefully tested. The best example is the nature of medicine for nearly 1500 years before the scientific method was introduced. You are only 100 years away from when bleeding was considered standard treatment. And thousands of learned men considered that they got "good results" from such treatment over a lifetime of practicing medicine. For more on this see Member's Services members_only » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Alternative Medicine and Epistomology. Particularly review the topic "DrO's Big Mistake".
DrO |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin
Post Number: 52
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 7:39 am: | |
Hello everybody,
I first heard about Photonic Therapy from a friend of mine who uses it on herself and her horses....when she first told me about it, I thought "yeah right....sure....what ^%#^$%#..." (btw..I'm a scientist!). So I went and read all the background info on this "therapy" and nothing in it changes my view!! Then after a trailride, my friend accompanied me home and brought her "light-stick" into the barn to "redlight" my horse....now, I know my horse reasonably well regarding how she responds to brushing, petting, massaging, etc....but I had NEVER seen a reaction like this when all the standard horse points were dealt with....she literally fell asleep! Dropped her head, sighed, closed her eyes! At this point, I decided that something must be going on when using this thing. So I softened up and bought a kit just in time for my girl to have a huge spook and injure one of her back legs...this was the perfect scenario to try the "redlight" since animals would likely not display a placebo effect. She stood there with no weight on her hind leg (stretched forward with just light ground contact) and I did all the standard points and then went around the critical areas of her leg. After about 2 min or so (she had shuffeled around before but always ended up with the leg stretched forward) she sighed stretched, put the leg back under her, gently put some more weight on it and then fully rested on it, cleary relieved. Needless to say, I was stunned and have since used my redlight to relieve pain on my horse, my aging, arthritic dogs (by now they line up for redlight treatment and are no longer on antiinflammatories...I did NOT change anything else in their care!)....and also used it on myself with great success!
Photonic therapy in my opinion and experience seems to be beneficial for relief of certain kinds of pain and after being a big skeptic, after hands on experience in quite a lot of situations, I now carry my light stick in my purse whereever I go!
I, too, would be happy to answer any questions on this and share my experience.
Christine |
Cindy Flood
New Member
Username: Floodfar
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 12:49 pm: | |
Christine, I personally know a few people who use Phototonic therapy and they all claim to get good results. I am thinking about purchasing one myself. I have a mare with a stone bruise and am wondering if it could help with that. My impression is it only works on soft tissues. Do you have any ideas on this? I have used it on my mare a couple of times and both times she fell asleep. Thank you, Cindy Flood |
Ann
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 538
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 2:50 pm: | |
I went to the web site... is this costly..? There is no price list...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS.. |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin
Post Number: 53
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 8:19 pm: | |
Hello Cindy and Ann,
Just yesterday we used the light stick on a horse with a stone bruise....I am not sure that we got much of a result except the horse being maybe a bit more comfortable (I hit all the "pain points" for the lower leg, including the point around the coronet band). Today he is almost sound but could have been so all by himself...so I don't know! What I do notice frequently, though, is that once you hit a sore spot, you get a definite "twitch" or "jerk", the same you would with accupressure. So I found a few of these around the horse's fetlock and treated them...this may have contributed.
As to the price...ehem  ...this thing is NOT cheap! Around $600 for the torch, the manual, a laminated chart for the standard points and a CD for either dog or horse, as well as to show the standard points for humans. Sounds expensive, however, in my case it is starting to pay off since the medicines my dogs used to be on were quite pricey and in a year or so, the price of the kit will be recovered in savings for meds.
Christine |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13130
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 12, 2005 - 11:11 pm: | |
I repeat, the idea of shining a red light on acupuncture points has no scientific support that I can find and 600$ is an awfully expensive placebo.
DrO |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2007 - 10:31 am: | |
I wanted to revive this topic to see if anyone had any new input on the subject. I have heard SO many wonder stories from my circle of horse friends that I am seriously thinking of investing the $$$ for one of my own. Anyone care to comment or share their own experiences? Thanks! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18192
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 9:12 am: | |
Hello Anne,
The body's ability to heal without little red lights being shined on it is truly a wonder. As far as we know shining little red lights on the body, horse or human, does not increase or decrease this wonder.
DrO |
DEB W
Member
Username: dwawz
Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 8:10 am: | |
I continue to use photonic therapy and feel I am getting good results. Do I completely understand the process, no I don't. But if I did only things that I truly understand, I'd be in a world of ... horse manure. If we stop looking for new ways of doing things, health, environment, science, this world would be pretty bleak. I'm glad our ancestors didn't quit trying new things, or we wouldn't be sitting here reading this article on this website, with heat in our homes, taking our medicine for whatever ails us while watching breaking news on the television and possibly talking to a relative in another country, on a cell phone. If you need to really understand, talk with Dr. McLaren, being closed minded, gets us nowhere. |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 3:12 pm: | |
Thanks Deb- and Dr. O. I hope some others will add their experiences. I have encountered far more folks who swear by it than those who say it didn't help but my sampling is certainly not scientific.
I have 2 vets for my mares, one conventional and one who does conventional treatment and also acupuncture and chiropractic. It is interesting to me that just a few short years ago in my circle of "horse people" the use of chiropractic in horse care was practically laughed at and today is positively mainstream. Acupuncture is almost there.
Thanks again and please keep the comments coming. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18208
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 7:37 pm: | |
DEB there are several types of closed minded behavior but they all center around not looking at a set of facts and assessing the information objectively. Often this is accompanied by personally disparaging those who disagree. My position on this is simple, looking at the scientific evidence, there is no clear evidence this type therapy is of value for anything other than enriching the pockets of those who make the product. The lack of good evidence is is backed up with my admitted limited understanding of physical, chemical, and biological systems. But as I understand them there is no obvious mechanism by which such "therapy" would help.
Let's be clear what is being discussed here. The term photonics can be used to describe many type of therapy including some useful treatments such as laser surgery, the activation of photo-active drugs using light or even the use of sunlight to treat vitamin D deficiency. So let's be specific, we are talking about shining little red lights on the skin to stimulate healing of tissues distant from the light. I concede that to the degree this light heats the tissues it is focused on and therefore increases circulation could be helpful but far cheaper to hot pack the area with a warm wet cloth or heating pad.
Anne, as to acupuncture and chiropractic, I am afraid they are in a similar position with the evidence for their efficacy not clearly shown in well conducted and backed up scientific studies. They do have one advantage in that mechanisms of efficacy through massage and perhaps the general release of endorphins induced by trauma are possible mechanisms of actions. You have to remember just 20 years ago every vet used prednisone for treating conditions in horses and thought it helpful. Medical history is clear, there is no poorer medical evidence than personal experience to support efficacy. As your friends have experienced more diseases get well than stay ill when they shine their red lights on their horses, but what does not seem to be factored in here is this is the normal nature of illness whether you shine red lights on the horse or not.
DrO |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 79
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 9:27 pm: | |
Hello everyone,
I have been trying very hard to stay out of this since I use Photonic therapy (yes, the little red light from Dr. McLaren) on my dogs, my horse, my friends' horses and also on myself. I cannot argue with Dr. O since there are indeed no clinical trials, especially the randomized, blinded type for this type of alternative medicine in horse or in humans. Other altnernative methods such as acupuncture have been through some randomized, and partially "blinded" studies and have shown effects for some conditions and none for others. So, for the healing effect of a little red light for chronic or longer term effects (not just temporary relief or acute conditions) Dr. O will always be 100% correct...this is not evidence based medicine...but now comes the big "however" and where it is easy to be a potential hypocrit because the McLaren photonic "tools" are quite expensive....Please show me ANY evidence based, randomized or whatever controlled studies about heart bar shoes "curing" or relieving any conditions. Show me ONE piece of evidence that a specific shoeing approach, that we are happy to spend hundreds of $$ on and trust the professional applying it to make a significant difference IN THE LONG RUN...this is just one example and when you attend conferences on farriery and shoeing and follow the new studies coming out, you will see that the "science of farriery" is also not evidence based and very much trial and error based and as much of an art and good craftsmanship coupled with tremendous experience by the professional (just for the record, I am NOT saying that farriers don't know what they are doing but I am saying that there are no controlled studies to show that a specific approach in farriery to address a specific problem actually always works...every good farrier will tell you that they s/he uses what works for them while others use a different approach, and both swear by it!). Now what does this have to do with photonic therapy....I have personnally seen horses (and dogs) totally relax when treated with the little red light that is not supposed to work. I have been successful in relieving obvious discomfort in a horse and have gotten very significant reactions to what appeared sore points with the red light over and over again but not when poking my finger gently at the same site or using a pen or whatever.
Apart from this, by using this red light I have learned a ton about the physiology of horses, where they seem to be sore, how they react, how to spot muscle tightness and do thoroughly enjoy the reactions by my friends the first time I use the redlight on their horse and I always get the "wow...what did you do...he is soo relaxed...look, he is not standing all crimped up any more..." Now, unless I am a magician or consistently lucky or end up with horses that just WANT to be touched my me and relax (not likely), I cannot explain what these reactions are based on rather than that they are feeling SOMETHING and this SOMETHING is making them feel better. Yes, not evidence based, expensive, no solid scientific rationale behind it, maybe I just WANT it to work, but work it does and at this point I really stopped caring about whether I can explain this scientifically or not (I am a Ph.D. scientist and was trained to follow the evidence!). I already spent the money on this, and am happy I did. Dr. O, I would be more than happy to send you my light torch and let you "play" with it for a few weeks to draw your own conclusions. This discussion will probably never be resolved and there are still horsey people out that will buy this. So, if anyone has a friend whose light torch you can borrow, do it and try to be really objective as to what you observe and then draw your own conclusions as to whether you are willing to pay a significant chunk of change to Dr. McLaren for this. I am glad I did while at the same time having to agree 100% with Dr. O. on the assessment and the lack of science and rigorous controlled studies around the use of this tool. Sometimes it comes down to a matter of "belief" as to whether something can work or not but especially since animals are not as prone to a placebo effect as humans are I do wonder why so many people seem to swear by this and use it with great success. I'd rather apply a little red light to my horse's skin first than oversupplementing, provide injections, buy magic ointments, etc. that have reputations of "working or not (in the end, I would probably end up spending more money on this than what I sent off to Dr. McLaren). I have stopped giving medications for arthritis to my dogs and guess what, with just the redlight therapy they are just as comfortable as they were when medicated and no longer limp, have problems getting up and down stairs, etc...I changed NOTHING ELSE and they have not gotten any younger either!!!
Enough now (whew), Dr O, please let me know if you would like to try out the redlight or whether you will adhere to your principles of no-evidence, no-go...the offer stands!! I completely understand your position of not being willing to support/endorse a method when there is no scientific or apparent mechanism/explanation of its evidence, since it is clear, and much appreciated that the purpose of your most excellent website is to provide solid, sound, scientifically based advice...this is why I use this site as my first go-to with whatever question I am researching.....but when it comes to photonic therapy, I hope we can end up agreeing to disagree and hope you will consider a try-out (no, I am not going to benefit from any sales of this thing...this is all just to see what you think once you have tried it, or have you?)
Christine |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 80
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 9:48 pm: | |
forgot to make another point clear...I am NOT promoting using the photonic therapy as an alternative to treatment where veterinary intervention is indicated...if a horse/dog needs meds and professional care, it needs meds and this is what the veterinary profession is all about (like promoting that there are alternatives to antibiotics for infectious diseases - not what I mean!). However, for the occasional aches and pains and the things that can be dealt with by the normal horse owner or some palliative care for a horse in discomfort, this is what photonic therapy has been great for in my hands...and to figure out "where" pain may be located since I usually get a very strong reaction. Would I want to apply photonic therapy to a horse that is 3-legged lame or bleeding profusely as an alternative to calling the vet? Absolutely not! Does not replace the vet in critical situation...just wanted to make sure so you won't think I am totally NUTS.... |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18209
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 7:25 am: | |
Hello Christine,
There are several problems with your proposition. Perhaps the most important is that I do not have a need for such therapy in my practice. Where I have horses with what you describe as the "occasional aches and pains or all crimped up" or even many more serious illnesses, I get them well quickly using traditional therapy which may include massage. I certainly have horses with serious illnesses that I cannot make well and in cases where it seems sensible we will try acupuncture. But why should I choose shining little red lights on the skin over say shaking chicken bones in a gourd rattle while murmuring prayers in foreign tongues? The world is full of such alternative therapies I am afraid and my day is already pretty full.
A broader reason I am not interested in this is stated in my post above, "Medical history is clear, there is no poorer medical evidence than personal experience to support efficacy". People just as smart or smarter than me and you used therapies that were harmful to their patients based on their personal experience and the belief that what they were doing helped their patients. The history of medicine and science is full of folks who have made discoveries and developed strong beliefs just like you have Christine that with careful testing were shown to be ineffective.
That all said, I do have a story of experimenting with a similar unit. In the 80's a race training friend, home for the off season, had obtained a similar device on the track and after having worked with it some time he believed it was the cat's pajamas for diagnosing and treating muscle, tendon, bone ailments. We did some single blinded testing with it over the summer and he sold it that fall. Concerning heart bar shoes, I don't use them either.
I do have one question Christine, if this device is so beneficial, why do you seem to have so many animals around you that need it? Besides our small and large animal practice, we have many pets and horses but everyone is well almost all the time. If you have found this machine helps you relate to horses and horse owners that is great and you know my feeling on this is, "if you think it works and it is not harmful the last thing you should do is quit on my say-so".
DrO |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 8:13 am: | |
The last thing I wanted was to kindle a debate. It had been almost 2 years since the last post on this topic and a lot can come to light (ha!) in 2 years. I was simply seeking current experiences.
That said, I am disappointed in what I perceive as a dismissive tone on the topic from Dr. O. You and your site are well respected and I am not taking issue with your opinion- I did solicit it- just the mocking manner in which you present it. It is said that every original idea is first ridiculed, then vigorously attacked, and finally taken for granted. That you would place acupuncture and chiropractic in a "similar position" - well I don't even know how to respond to that.
I really appreciate the feedback so far and hope to hear more experiences from people who have actually used the device for the purposes it is suggested for and who can share their results here. I have an open mind on this and I would hope most every topic and would like to learn more so I can make a more informed decision about a major purchase. Thanks again. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18218
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 9:26 am: | |
Anne, the discussions are supposed to be debates so don't worry about that, but could you point out where I mock the other posters? I will apologize for any such behavior if I have done it. My dictionary defines mocking as "scornful or holding up to ridicule". The only mocking statement I see above is me being implicated as being "close minded" yet you did not find a problem with this.
DrO |
Janet Erwin
New Member
Username: jberwin
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 10:03 am: | |
Regardless of where you are on the Photonic Therapy debate, calling it a "little red light" is a choice of words intended to trivialize the treatment.
What we do know is that we DON'T know what it is doing. But, unless these people are liars, and don't think they are, we can assume that the therapy is doing SOMETHING.
So, can we agree that there is an effect? We just don't know what? |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1261
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 11:11 am: | |
Its seems to me that buying a therapeutic ultrasound machine at a fraction of the cost, that is proven to cause internal heat would be key here.. The Photonic Therapy unit is suppose to cause heat for circulation correct???
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2611
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 11:50 am: | |
What is the "red light" supposed to do and how? I had a friend that had it used on her horses but I could never understand what it was supposed to do as far as helping the horse who was slightly lame on the right front. I know that some therapies help by increasing circulation; is that what the Photonic Therapy is supposed to do also? Why is only the red color used? Or are other colors used too? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18222
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 1:10 pm: | |
Welcome Janet,
The problem is that it is "a little red light". Whether you consider this trivial or not seems to me a judgement you have made. And no, we cannot assume it is doing something curative, which is my whole point. While we may agree the horses are getting better, whether the light is the cause or not requires well designed experiments. To expound on my example above, you can shake chicken bones in gourds and chant over sick horses and the majority will get well, but do you think it is the treatment that caused the horse to get well?
DrO |
Janet Erwin
New Member
Username: jberwin
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 1:35 pm: | |
Let's not confuse alternative medicine with voo doo! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18223
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 4:57 pm: | |
We have a topic with articles and discussions on what is alternative medicine and the nature of separating the wheat from the chaff when it comes to treatment. You will find this at, Member's Services members_only » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Alternative Medicine and Epistemology. There you will also find a recounting of my own mistake with therapy which I thought useful only to discover later was not possible, see DrO's Big Mistake in the above referenced topic.
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2614
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 5:33 pm: | |
Dr. O. A mistake?!! Can't wait to read about it! |
DEB W
Member
Username: dwawz
Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 6:01 pm: | |
I personally use a medical doctor, chiropractor and photonic therapy. I do not believe that there is only one way to treat any given ailment or injury. The body has tremendous healing power, faith, positive attitude, sometimes downright stubborness all play into this power of healing: so does an assist from medical practitioners, and alternative sources.
We all look at things differently, some need facts, some see results and that is enough. I have seen some really great things happen through alternative care and will not turn away from it.
For my horses (all 14 of them) they see vets, dentists, and the 'little red light'. They get vaccinations, regular worming good exercise and good turn out. I imprint the new foals (which a lot of people think is a little out there too) I manage to get by.
Photonic Therapy is like needleless acupuncture. It works off electrical/chemical fields in our bodies. No heat is involved. The light itself stimulates the acupuncture point. This is a very simple explanation, if you would like a more in depth explanation contact me at debwawz@msn.com |
Catherine McCourt
Member
Username: kstud
Post Number: 124
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 6:09 pm: | |
Can I just say that even though I am willing to give most therapies a try I would think less of Dr O if he were in any way to endorse something that cannot be proven to be effective. That is the beauty of this site, any advice from Dr O or the articles is backed by solid research and we can use it safely. Dr O,s personal opinion of other treatments is really none of our concern and nor should it be. If it works for you and you are happy then that is fine and isn't it great that we have a site where we can dispassionately discuss such things and ask for other peoples experiences. |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 6:12 pm: | |
Dr. O- to be clear I did not accuse you of mocking a poster. I did characterize your opinion as "mocking" and I stand by that: "But why should I choose shining little red lights on the skin over say shaking chicken bones in a gourd rattle while murmuring prayers in foreign tongues? The world is full of such alternative therapies I am afraid and my day is already pretty full." Yeah, I'd classify that as scornful at the minimum.
It seems to me your point keeps coming back to it might do something but it is just as likely to be the body's normal healing result and not a result of the light therapy. To which I wonder, could ALL these people be wrong? Do you take issue with Dr. McLaren's credentials or any of the information presented on his website or in his materials? Have you ever actually read his materials or spoken to the man? You concede that you tried the therapy more than 20 years ago and you call that your experience- is it possible that there have been advances in the technology you are not taking into consideration?
I had a headache this morning so bad I took some Motrin and went back to bed. I woke up and it was better but not gone. I drank a Coke and it went away. Motrin sells an awful lot of product for headaches- maybe it worked a little, maybe it was the rest or the caffeine, who knows? I do know next time I will still take it probably.
I still hope to hear from more posters with actual experience with the unit. It would be refreshing if you (the doctor) would have a bit of an open mind on the issue. Contempt prior to investigation is not a learned mindset to me. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18235
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 7:39 am: | |
I apologize that my attempt at humor to illustrate a point offended you but the point was to be critical of the machine. I do not see a reason to prefer shining little red lights on horses for anything other than the possible benefits I list above over shaking chicken bones in a gourd.
You continue to misrepresent my state of mind and now misrepresent my knowledge about this procedure. This is a modality I have investigated before, (see the original post on this discussion) have had some personal experience as outlined above, and prior to posting to your response spent almost an hour looking for any new research. I simply find no good scientific evidence of efficacy for the wide range of diseases it purports to treat nor do I know of a mechanism of action for most it's claims and that is after having read their explanation and reviewing the literature on photonic therapy. It is my job here to point this out and if you interpret that as contempt, again I apologize for causing you offense.
DrO |
Anne Hudick
Member
Username: ladycfp
Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 9:17 am: | |
But here is where I see a HUGE difference Dr. O between photonic therapy and shaking chicken bones and why I am baffled by your responses along those lines. To my knowledge, there have not been numerous posts here and on other equine care boards attesting to positive personal experience by shaking chicken bones and chanting. None that I know of anyway.
I also do not know of any medical professional who promotes shaking chicken bones nor any who market a kit for it.
There is a huge difference to me. That you do not even concede a glimmer of "well there could be something to it," in the face of so many testimonials is surprising to me. Please do not read that as anything but wonder on my part. I mean no disrespect to you and if you have taken any from my comments please accept my apologies.
I still am not clear if your personal experience with this torch is more recent than you have shared here, or if you are speaking from the personal experience you state occured in the 80's. |
Erika L
Member
Username: erika
Post Number: 805
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 9:54 am: | |
I must say, I am glad to see I'm not the only one who "get's into it" on this wonderful site! Please remember that it is very hard to tell someone's "tone" when it is in written format. One can't assume contempt, sometimes it's sarcastic humor. I've been on both sides of that assumption!
That said--you all got me wondering...the placebo effect is well known in human medicine. I, for one, have been the beneficiary of such. I say beneficiary because if something works without intrusion or side affects, yippee!
Is there any evidence of it working in animals? Or does one have to have an expectation of relief and/or understanding of being treated in order to result in a placebo effect?
Wait! Before anyone assumes I am taking sides on the light therapy--I am speaking in general, not of this particular treatment. Dr. O, would you rather I put this question into a new thread? |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: gingin
Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 7:43 pm: | |
hmmmmm...I have been pondering why I have to keep thinking about the various issues and thoughts posted on this thread and why this whole thing is still buggin' me and I just had a thought...
I work in the medical field in an area where there is relatively little interest by companies in doing clinical trials since there is no perceived market for any new products (i.e. the people who would benefit from new meds are in countries where they cannot afford them)...so, as a result some potentially VERY PROMISING therapeutics are never put into clinical studies because these studies are just too expensive to be done right. This also includes what is called "label- extension" studies where you investigate whether a drug that is licensed for a specific disease would not also work for another disease. However there is PLENTY of anecdotal info out there from physicians who, as part of normal clinical practice, use the drug at their discretion "off-label" and therefore accumulate information that is also not necessarily published, and the result of controlled trials etc.
I think one of the problems with evidence based medicine in the equine vet field is that there are also few sponsors of controlled trials, therefore, few trials are done and a lot of the "evidence" that is out there is mainly anecdotal. The real drugs and vaccines that have a commercial sponsor and a reasonable market of course undergo clinical testing since this is a prerequisite for marketing approval. However, when you look at these studies and the size of the trials that were done to "proof" that a product is effective, you will see that they are just about as big as they has to be to provide some statistical significance in a well selected group of "horse patients". The real data about whether a product works or not then get created in the after-market phase of use - this is also the period where adverse events and undesired or surprising other "good effects" show up (think Vioxx). Does that mean that only products that are being used in horses and have undergone clinical trials because there is a sponsor are the ones who truly work? , or could it indeed be the case that there are promising new modalities out there that, IF someone were to fund the studies and actually check out their utility, would end up quite successful? I guess it all comes down to money in the end and a sponsor who will benefit from those sales. Until then, I guess we will have lots of discussions around these topics and issues especially if there are things out there that people believe in because they worked for them...and I think there is nothing wrong with this if no harm is done...BTW...when you look at the "efficacy" data for lets say a commonly used human drug, and look over the results of a "pivotal" trial (i.e. the one that shows whether it has benefit of not and is usually used to produce data for licensure and FDA approval), you will see that even with the BEST drugs, the trial result will show that there were individuals that did not benefit or where the effect was minor or just like placebo or the ones who actually fared worse. These trials, for a reason, include LOTS of volunteers since in a heterogenous population of patients, you just need to look at a lot of different individuals to tease out an effect and decide whether this effect is good enough to provide a benefit for the new drug. Considering that in the horsey world and with the occasional use and anecdotal info from products like photonic therapy, no one will be able to really do a controlled, randomized and in this case placebo controlled study to produce clear evidence, we'll likely be stuck with "it works for me!!!" as the evidence....Just wonder what would happen if someone actually did a good trial....hmmmmmm
Soooo, the greatest thing about this website remains that through the info Dr. O posts, one can see how SOLID the evidence is around a given treatment or diagnostic option and become an informed horse owner...That's why I LOVE my light torch!
Also, Dr. O, when I offered to loan you my little red light, it was not meant for you as the vet to be used in your vet practice but for you as a horse owner to be "played with". Never mind, though, I understand completely where you are coming from and respect that.
Christine |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 18239
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 9:56 pm: | |
Anne I love it when you talk to me about the subject and not my short comings as a human being. My sense of humor may be a bit dry but after fifty plus years hard to change.
Concerning the photonic unit it is amazing what a little scientific mumbo jumbo and a high cost can do to boost your reputation and positive outcome percentage but I too am surprised that more have not supported rattling chicken bones. I know for a fact it would boost the positive outcome rate about 20% (no kidding). But have your read the disclamer on the McLaren Photonic Therapy Web Site? If not let me present it here verbatim:
Disclaimer
The McLaren Photonic Therapy system is not FDA approved for human use and this equipment is sold for personal use only. The purchaser must be aware of the possible danger of treating pancreatitis (insulin dependant Type l diabetes) without considering the possibility of a drop in blood glucose, which could result in the equivalent of an overdose of insulin.
The human manual is included, as human transpositional points are used on the animal.
While equipment for animal use in America is generally FDA exempt, it is not intended to replace primary health care professional consultation and diagnosis. It is suggested this method be used post diagnostically.
The McLaren Photonic Therapy unit, of itself has no healing power of any kind, and no claim as such is made or implied. No warranty is given or implied as to the effectiveness or otherwise of this form of treatment or the formulae offered. As the method of application in using the light is out of McLaren Photonic Therapy’s control, no responsibility is accepted for any treatment effects, condition progress, or sequel arising after treatment.
Is there anything more to be said?
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 2623
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 12, 2007 - 11:08 pm: | |
"no healing power of any kind, and no claim as such is made or implied" ?? And so, why do you use it? What is it supposed to do and how?
Guess I'll check out the website out of curiosity; can't take it anymore! |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 973
Registered: 1-2000
| |
