HorseAdvice.com Equine & Horse Advice: Chondroitin sulfate vs glucosamine HCL, vs glucosamine sulfate

Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 1999 - 1:14 pm:

So what is the difference?

My vet was out for fall shots/teeth floating and we inspected the mare's hocks - a little fluid on the front of one and she is a bit stiff when coming out, but warms up out of it after a few minutes of light canter. (Hey, who isn't creaky? The mare and I are about the same age when horse years are converted to people years - I'm creaky, too.)

We discussed alternatives and, interestingly, the vet was biased to try supplementation first, then, perhaps IV injections and was very reluctant to do hock injections unless really needed, which they don't seem to be.

His bias is a product with glucosamine, not chondroitin sulfate. So, I dragged out the catalogs last night and decided I was clueless. What is the difference between the hcl and the sulfate of the glucosamine? Is it important to have some of the other stuff - perna, yucca, vitamins, whatever? It all seems like marketing hype to me.

How important is a "name brand" product? One of unknown brands was nearly pure glucosamine sulfate at a much better price per dose at equivalent levels. It also didn't include all the extraneous stuff - is that good or bad?

And, what should be the daily dose for a 1000 lb equine? 5,000 mg? 1750 mg? 8,000 mg? It is all over the map. (LOL, I even found a few calculation errors in the catalogs.)

In the past, I've supplemented with chondroitin sulfate (may have helped her sore front hooves improve - when I stopped, not noticeable regression), Ester-C (no noticeable change with or without), MSM (no noticeable change with or without).

Just trying to become less confused.

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 2, 1999 - 8:36 am:

Hello Chris
Your confusion is well understood. The problem is we don't know the answer to your questions. We have a general feeling that scientific experiments SUPPORT that these products help reduce pain but the chemistry of these molecules is extremely complicated and makes nailing down specific recommendations impossible at this time. Maybe when we come up with the mechanisim of action that would be easier!

When I use the term glucosamine it is synonymous with glucosaminoglycans, glycosaminoglycans, proteoglycans and in fact they are all muccopolysaccarides.

I do not think there is much difference between the various salts of glycosamine: HCl and sulfate. The salts are used to percipitate the active ingredient and I do not think we know if one may dissolve better than the other.

The chondroitin / glucosamine argument is unsettled. First realize that glucosamine is a very large class of molecules that includes chondroitin sulfate which is further subdivided into groups of molecules that can vary in dozens of ways. In general cartilage uses 5 categories of glucosamines with the predominant one being chondroitin sulfate.

In other words a product that is 100% chondroitin is 100% glucosamine while a product that is 100% glucosamine may contain large quanities of chondroitin.

So you can make the argument for glucosamine: It may contain a bigger variety of molecules some of which may be important and not in chondroitin sulfate products.

Or, you can make the argument for chondroitin: It contains the predominant building block of articular cartilage and therefore has more of what I need. Besides not all glucosamines are used by the joints.

And as Kurt liked to say, "So it goes." Personally I look for a product that has a good mixture of both, I add the weights of the two together divide by the cost to get a cost per gram and then buy the cheapest product that comes from a company I recognize the name of. I do not think the extra stuff has any proven benefit. I wonder how much chondroitin sulfate the pure (cheaper) glucosamine product has in it?
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 2, 1999 - 3:10 pm:

Who is Kurt? :O)

How confusing this all is.

I looked for products with both and they seem to call out either chondroitin sulfate or glucosamine. I felt lucky if they listed the amount in mg. per dose. One cataloger even went so far as to say not to feed both CS and glucosamine at the same time.

Not one of the glucosamine products listed the amount of CS component - or even mentioned CS.

Sounds like I need to do my own experiment. What would be a criteria for success? Shorter warm ups? Perceived less stiffness? Maybe I should set up my own double blind with my instructor, somehow.

Too bad the horse can't tell me if/when she feels more comfortable ... hmm ... she'd probably tell me it is when she is dozing under an apple tree in the middle of a pasture. Never mind.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 7:02 am:

Hello Chris,
It has gotten to where I avoid the products that do not list the amount of each component though I used for years a product composed of mussles that still does not have the ingredients listed. It was the first I could find used in good scientific experiments. Using the above criterion we are currently dispensing a Vetri-Science Labs product called Glyco-Flex plus.

In human studies it required large double blinded studies to positively demonstrate an effect. It would be difficult to detect the results in the short run. In general it was found arthritis suffers required less NSAIDs to remain comfortable.

I continue to recommend the products in luke warm fashion with the thought it may prolong the useful career of horses doing lots of ring, arena work. My wife's TWH is on it and we have not had to inject that arthritic hock in several years.

Kurt Vonnegut was a science fiction writer that critiqued social foibles. He would make nonjudmental observations through the eyes of a main character and allow the reader to decide whether it made sense or not. In more than one of his books the character would say after a particularly difficult to understand (explain?) observation ..."and so it goes".
DrO

Josephine R. Budny

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 9:16 am:

Hi there, I just wanted to tell you about my experience with Glucasamine Sulfate. I have a 12 year old golden retriever that has become arthritic and was limping extremely bad on the front shoulder (he had surgery when he was 8 months old on both his front shoulders because of OCD). I took him to the vet just to confirm that nothing else was happening other than arthritis. The vet highly suggested putting him on 1 tablet of glucosamine sulfate and 1 ascripton before considering steriods. After 2 almost 3 weeks I saw a remarkable difference in him. He was not limping anymore, he actually was and still is acting like he's 5 years younger.

For myself, my knees started to ache on a regular basis and my finger joints (and a few other joints) so I decided to try it myself. I did try to monitor what I felt before and how I feel now and my knees don't ache, my hips don't ache.....I'm a true believer in glucosamine sulfate. I ride/train 4 horses a day. I have a warmblood (17.3) that takes alot of physical work from me to get her to come through and maintain it.

My warmblood was diagnosed with sidebone and ringbone. I'm grateful that the ringbone is not interferring with the joint(s). I do alot of arena/ring work with her also. I put her on glucosamine Sulfate/MSM combo mainly to slow down the hardening of the cartilage (hopefully). Her freedom of movement has improved and I feel like it is benefitting her because of the all the ring work she does which puts stress on her joints.

Overall, I do believe in that combination and would recommend it depending on the individual situation.

Jo

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 10:01 am:

Ah, that Kurt. I thought we had a member named Kurt, :O) Duh.

Thanks Jo and Dr. O. It does peeve me, too, when you can't find the amounts per dose.

What about the extraneous stuff like "SOD" (superoxide whatever) purported to help with absorption? Are there any ingredients necessary to balance the glucosamines and improve absorption?

My latest favorite hype (can you tell I've been in marketing too long?) is Corta-flx's "Dramatic difference in 5 days" or your money back.

A friend and I split a quart looking for the dramatic difference and we are still waiting for our horses to start piaffing in their stalls for pleasure, LOL.

Now, how to collect the refund ... hmmm.

Dr. Carol Artlett

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 12:57 pm:

SOD or superoxide dismutase is a free radical scavenger. However, the interaction of superoxide dismutase with sodium chondroitin sulfate as been studied in vitro and in vivo. The enzyme (SOD) easily forms both enzyme associations and non-covalent complexes with chondroitin sulfate in solution. Almost half of the superoxide dismutase subunits were found to be covalently bound to chondroitin sulfate; and the modified subunit retained the ability to form dimers with the native subunit. It is interesting that medical research has investigated CS as a means of retaining SOD in particular areas such as arterial walls as an anti-thrombotic treatment for example...not the other way round.

Carol

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 7:12 am:

Hello All,
I continue to be unable to find proof of benefit for arthritis with the oral use of free radical scavengers (SOD, MSM) with the possible exception of vitamin C. Carol do you know of any work to suggest otherwise?
DrO

Dr. Carol Artlett

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 2:40 pm:

Well DrO, there really aren’t any good studies out there that show oral administration of SOD as being beneficial in arthritic situations. My guess is that SOD works best where it is placed and may actually be degraded in the stomach or be utilized there, although I cannot find scientific evidence for this. Slightly protective effects of borderline significance were observed with orgotein (a superoxide dismutase) with oral administration (Colombo et al. Arthritis Rheum 1983; 123(1):3-6). It does seem that SOD injected has some benefit against arthritis and a number of studies have reported that inhaled SOD to be beneficial against lung damage. Local application of SOD also seems to have considerable benefit regarding arthritis and other inflammatory conditions (Mizushima et al. Drugs Exp Clin Res 1991;17(2):127-31). Vitamin C is a good anti-inflammatory molecule but so is vitamin E. Both have been shown to be beneficial in lowering the inflammation in arthritis situations when orally administered(Kheir-Eldin et al. Agents Actions 1992; 36(3-4):300-5).
I suspect the short end of the sick here is that unless a conclusive study shows oral administration of SOD as being beneficial, then it is a waste of money. Maybe we should be supplementing our arthritic horses food with vitamins C&E.

Carol
P.S. I did not know what MSM stood for so I couldn't look it up in the pharmacology books here.

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 3:26 pm:

Without looking it up: Methylsulfonylmethane but don't burn me if I am off a little. Vitamin E is a nutrient I am beginning to actively recommend supplementation in horses not on green grass.
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 7:29 pm:

How much vitamin E would you recommend, Dr. O? Can it be gotten without the selenium? (We're in NC)

My mare is not on grass except when hand fed, and is about 1000 lbs. The timothy hay is quite green looking.

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 11:45 am:

Hello Chris,
For a otherwise healthy horse on fresh good quality green hay, 50 IU Vitamin E a day is good. If the hay is not of good quality and the horse working at all: 100 IU a day. I would buy the human product, generic but from a well known company.
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 12:21 pm:

Dr. O,

You just put a vitamin E pill on their food and they eat it? (asked incredulously ...)

And the hope is that the vitamin E acts as an antioxident?

Thanks!

A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 1:09 pm:

Dear Chris,
Please ask a simple question about a simple product next time, because I have been faithfully reading this post, getting more and more confused, not understanding all the big words, but reading on because one needs to learn all the time, don't you know. [SOD meant something quite different to me - lump of grass, drunk, etc. - until now.]

And after such complicated questions and answers, where I'm thinking, thank heavens, only Vitamin E to worry about [plus Vitamin C and Brewers Yeast that he's already on], you ask incredulously if your princess will eat a Vitamin E pill? Oh, how simple. Scoop out a carrot, keep the little hat, pop Vitamin E pill inside, drop of honey or molasses, hat back on, horse chomps it up without realising a nasty lurks inside. Or, if you dampen your food, if the nasty is a pill, grind it and add it to the food, or if it is a capsule, pull the end off and add it to the food. If you feed cubes dry, carrot trick will have to do.

Cheers,
Alexa

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 1:47 pm:

Alexa,

I'm sitting here at work after a very serious meeting and cracking up.

My limited experience with vitamin E is that it comes in oil capsules and 100 iu is only half of what I supplement myself with daily!

Since my mare is at my riding instructors, supplement administration must be easy ... I can find vitamin C in powder that is easy to add to the mare's supper, but I have this mental image of her finding the vitamin E capsule and ptooeying it out, GRIN. And, I'm not sure I can imagine her caretaker poking a hole in the capsule and squeezing out the E ... I'll have to look over the vitamin catalogs.

I think Dr. O once said he is really glad he doesn't have to treat my horse - he'd have to charge by the question instead of treatment, GRIN.

Thanks.

Posted on Saturday, Nov 6, 1999 - 8:41 am:

Hello Chris,
Right, the ones I get come in a gel capsule that can have the end snipped off and squeezed out. I take 1000 IU of E daily myself (I listen to Joe and Terry Graedon). I think it is easier than measuring out a scoop of Strongid C, it is premeasured.

I know I mentioned vitamin C above but I am increasingly not recommending it for horses. Though vitamin C is essential for healthy physiology in horses, they do not need vitamin c in their diet. They are one of the species that can synthesize this vitamin. A number of studies in horses have proven it is unneeded and no benefit has yet been found from it use in these studies, including its supplementation in the very athletic horse. We know disease can lower the plasma vitamin C levels but supplementation has not been shown to be of benefit in diseased horses either.
DrO

PSpears

Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 1999 - 4:27 pm:

Well... I just have to beat a dead horse to a pulp. Dr.O, I now understand why you repeatedly dodged my questions related to glucosamine and chondroitin (seemed out of character). My vet thinks Cosequin is the BEST as it contains BOTH. However, it comes witha hefty price tag. On the cheaper side, my vet, another equine specialist and a horse supply distributor all recommended Flex Free (chondroitin). Maybe Flex Free's wholesaler is doing a better job of creating awareness for his product. I don't know but 3 knowledgeable people for 3 was good enough for me. My horse is stalled with an injury and therefore cannot be evaluated for improvement with this product. However, after researching it for the horse, I started giving it to my grandma (her supplement has both gluco and chondr) and she is responding positively. I wonder if using this stuff causes the body to produce a lesser viscosity synoval fluid in the product's absence than would have been produced if the product were never introduced? Any shot of becoming glucosaminoglycan (sp?) dependent?

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 1999 - 6:48 am:

Hello PSpears,
"Any chance" is a pretty open question and so I will have to dodge this one too: the only answer we have is we don't know.
DrO

Colleen Coatsworth

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 30, 1999 - 1:53 pm:

Hello all. I need to know the difference, if any, between Legend and Trisaccarid. I was told by my vet that Trisaccarid contains exactly the same ingredients and molecular weight as Legend (hyaluronic acid), only it was a generic form, and so was much more inexpensive. Only, after my horse's first injection of it (IV) I've since been told that Trisaccarid is a mixture of 3 different glucosaminoglycans, which I understand that Legend isn't??!! It sounds more like Adequan to me, only I thought Adequan was given IM. The bottle of Trisaccarid has no additional info. on it except "IV only", and no package insert is available. I'm confused, and I really need to know what my horse is being treated with. Can you help?

Also, besides this site, is there a place on the web to access an extensive list (definitions & treatment amounts) of equine drugs? I couldn't find Trisaccarid on this site. Alternately, what is the name of a book that vets use to look up drugs?

Thanks!!

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 1, 1999 - 6:46 am:

Hello Colleen,
I have not seen the product Trisaccarid and do not know who manufacturers it. Neither is it listed in any of my pharmaceutical reference books. Of course new brands of most generic drugs are appearing and disappearing all the time, so the fact they are not in any of my referecences means little.

Again terminology can get in the way, hyaluronic acid is a glucosaminoglycan. Most hyaluronic brands differ by there concentration of the drug and by the molecular weight (MW) of the very long hyaluronic acid molecule. Currently it is unknown if MW effects efficacy. The good studies have used Legend brand hyaluronic acid, but I suspect any good quality HA product will give good results. HA is expensive so I too shop price, but stay with companies I am familiar with.
DrO

Angela Spucces

Posted on Sunday, Mar 5, 2000 - 2:23 am:

Even tho Adequan is IM, I have heard of people using it IV, apparently with no harm, although the instructions only specify IM use.
That said, I have my mare on Adequan and CortaFlx, and she is moving better now than she was 5 yrs. ago. (Adequan 1x mo. after loading, 4 weekly doses, CortaFlx daily, 1oz.)
I had started with Flexxion, which really made a difference at first, then I jumped around and bought whatever happened to be on sale at the time, so I have used alot of these supplements over the past 2 yrs. or so.
I found that for prevention, the Chondroitins seemed to work best, it seems to help at the earliest stages of arthritis also.
Glucosamine seems to maintain and improve a horse that is already arthritic.
The Adequan was a fairly recent addition, as my mare had injured her self and was a bit off in the LF. (I had her on it last year, but it was sporadic)
These are just my own observations, I could be totally wrong, LOL but my mare has responded to most of the supplements that I used on her, for the better. I am a believer in the neutraceuticals and the Adequan, (wonderful stuff)
If any one on the board would know where I could get it for less than $50 a dose I would really appreciate it, as it is pricey.

Jaime Taft

Posted on Sunday, Mar 5, 2000 - 12:11 pm:

Jumping in a bit late on this one. I have used, upon the advice of my trainer, various joint supplements. Starting with yucca, on to Grand Flex (glucosomine), then Max Flex (glucosomine, then Corta Flx (chondroitin) (still waiting for my horse to piaffe as well, Chris!). I've got the stiffest mover in the world, my 12 yo TB gelding off the track (ok, maybe not, but he's stiff!). Did I see any improvement? Well, maybe slightly. And yet I still faithfully purchase these expensive products every month and cross my fingers.

Now I just started working with an 8 year old SWB gelding. He's out of shape, and he's has been on and off stiff but seems to be more stiff behind as he gets back into work. So we put him on MSM to start. Slight improvement. So if less is good, more is better, right? So this time I went back to the tack store wondering again, chondroitin or glucosomine?? Neither worked miracles for my TB, so I figured I'd have the best luck with a mix and found one product that had both on the shelf, PowerFlex. It claims to contain 5000MG Glucosomine and something like 3250MG Chondroitin.
So we'll see how it goes. Nothing like spending an extra $60/month for the promise of a new, fantastic moving horse the next day!

Ok, I better throw in a question for Dr.O or it will appear I am just rambling....What on earth is Shark Cartilage supposed to do compared to the glucosomine or the chondroitin? I have seen that advertised on what product...NextLevel I think. Oh, and what is Glucosomine GAGs? I have seen that advertised before also. And do you think or is there evidence to show that Gluco/Chond supps are absorbed better in liquid form like products like CortaFlx claim?

And one more, if these things aren't working for a horse, such as my TB, does that mean go to hock injections or would that be an indicator that injections aren't likely to help either being they are essentially the same thing? (Assuming of course that whatever stiffness my horse is having is actually in the hocks)

Posted on Sunday, Mar 5, 2000 - 5:01 pm:

Hello Jaime,
Shark Cartiage is one of the common sources of these joint protection compounds so look for the concentration.

How much or whether these compounds will help yourr horse at all depends on why he moves the way he does. If the problem is pain from DJD you may see some improvement with the use of these products but if you are battling innate performance ceilings youy could feed your horses 1000 dollar bills, known to be rich in chondroprotective substances, and he will get no better. Or how about an inbetween: you are being limited by a mild disease process yet it is not arthritis: again glucosamine and chondrotin will not help.

You must look at your horse objectively and possibly with the help of a experienced trainer and vet formulate a working hypotheses as to what is limiting your horse's performance and then make rational adjustments. Use the results of the adjustments to evaluate your hypothesis, then make further adjustments... it is a lot like life, no one thing is likely to make a big difference it is the whole process that is important.
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2000 - 12:10 pm:

Jaime,

The best thing I did for my horse was buy a saddle that is comfortable for her.

I got one of those new Ansur dressage saddles that are treeless and the difference in my horse has been stunning.

I'd no plan to buy a saddle when I took her to a demo of it in January - my friend was going with her horse so we went as a lark.

First we rode in our own saddles, then we tried the Ansur, then we went back to our own saddles. Well, the difference was night/day and I was hooked. I wrote about it in a product review.

My old saddle had been fit to her and was checked every year ... but it wasn't good enough for her comfort.

Now, I am starting to attribute multiple issues in past history to poor saddle fit ... her performance would deteriorate at multiple day shows - our best ride being the first, she would buck at the canter off and on, our canters would not be nice - hollow/heavy, etc.

In just a few short weeks, we are working on other interesting things and she is moving very nicely.

I can't say it is the saddle change 100% because we've been working very seriously and I think my riding is much improved over this last year, but the saddle put us over the top.

In our last lesson before the mishap with the fence, my instructor told me to begin getting her used to the whip cues from the ground in preparationg for half steps and piaffe this fall.

A year ago our canter sucked. I never would have blamed the saddle after the fitting sessions, yet ...

So, maybe your horse doesn't need the supplements, but the fit of the saddle is causing him to move poorly. Just a consideration to ponder.

Jaime Taft

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2000 - 5:43 pm:

Chris,
I have had the saddle I am currently using (A Klimke-Miller) checked by my trainer and it fits him well. I also ride with a thick western pad (ugly!) when schooling because it provides him the best protection for his back. I have thought about the treeless saddle for him, but my friend rode in one and didn't like it, she said it didn't have much support, rather flat seat and no knee rolls (yes, I like my "sofa" saddle, I admit it!). I would be interested in hearing your opinion of the Ansur saddle.

He gets regular chiropractic and is always out of alignment in his lower back just behind where the saddle rests. We are also going to start doing massage with him to see if that helps. He is sometimes so sore that his whole body collapses when you run your hand along his spine. His canter, by the way, is wonderful most of the time. Only when he is really sore does his canter suffer. It's his trot where we have the most problems, he's tense, taking short quick steps, and grinding his teeth. He just cannot seem to relax under saddle, and I think that is the reason his back hurts, because he holds so much tension in it.

I have since quit doing dressage with him and am leasing a SWB to pursue my passion with. My TB is being leased out by a woman who is going to try jumping with him. He's just too tense for dressage, whether he's stiff, his back hurts, or just nervous I don't know, but I think after 8 years I have just given up on getting him to relax and just try to keep him as comfortable as possible.

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 12:33 am:

Jaime, if your horse "almost collapses" when you run your hand along his back, this would seem to me that he has quite a sore back! I'd get a second opinion about the saddle fit. Also, have you investigated the source of his pain? I knew a lady whose horse had a vetebral "kissing lesion" which caused the horse to have a very sore back, and injections into the site relieved the pain.
If he's too sore for dressage, how is he going to jump??

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 1:01 am:

Chris, I'm very interested in learning more about the Ansur saddles. I never heard of them but your posting was intriging. Both my horses are wide-backed and hard to fit even with wide trees.
I did an internet search for Ansur saddles but didn't find anything specific. Do you know where I could get some information? Thanks.
Pam Griffin

Jaime Taft

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 3:26 am:

Pam,
You brought up some good points. I have thought about having a vet check out his back. The thing is he is fine right after his chiropractic, but then his spine falls out of alignment after a week or two. His muscles around the area then become sore from holding tension there, which is why the chiropractor suggested I start having a massage therapist work on him. Now that I know there could possibly something going on there that is treatable, I may try that.
I was thinking he would do better as a hunter/jumper not so much because of his back but because he can go around on relatively little contact, and without contact he relaxes a little better. Also, jumpers don't mind the "hot" horses as much. That, and my trainer thought jumping might be good for his back to strengthen the muscling there. Finally, I thought he could try jumping because he seems to hate dressage and I thought it might be something he would like better, he is more of a "hunter" type.

Incidently, I got the opportunity to ride in the Ansur saddle tonight while I was test riding a horse for a friend. I have to say, I didn't like it at all. I love the idea, and I have thought about one for my TB, but I couldn't ride in it. It's very flat, with no knee roll or anything in front of your leg but flat leather. The back of the saddle was fairly high, with a fake pommel-like thing in front. What happened for me anyway was it wanted to put my leg too far forward. In that position I was unable to get my leg on the horse. When I moved my leg back to where I could feel his sides, it pitched me forward. Also, there was something the owner was saying about the stirrup leathers, you had to have thin, stretchy leathers to absorb shock, it made for a very unsteady leg for me, and usually my legs are fairly quiet. It reminded me of a saddle seat saddle in front but the back was more like a hunt saddle, the end result is I had a hard time feeling balanced in it. The owner said she didn't like it at first too but after a month or so she got used to it.

Jaime

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 11:10 am:

Hi Jaime,
Thanks for the input on the Ansur saddle. It does sound sort of strange. Re: your horse that hates dressage...I, too, have a horse that hates dressage, but the reason is that she has arthritic hocks and collection hurts her, despite many injections and Legend. She is very happy and comfortable being a pleasure trail horse. Horses "hate" things usually because they hurt, and and until the source of the pain is uncovered and treated, no type of riding is going to be truly pleasurable to the horse, just a bit less painful.

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 4:17 pm:

The web site for ansur is http://www.ansursaddle.com/

I tend to prefer a saddle that doesn't put me some where. There has been a trend in recent years to create saddles that fit about the rider to hold him/her in position, but I've never liked that.

Interestingly, I was riding in a County Warmblood as it comes in an extra wide tree (5). I got a larger size for me to give me a little extra wriggle room as it has a deep seat (not my preference). Since riding in the Ansur, I determined I'd been collapsed on my left side a bit and the County had let me. The Ansur tells you (by feel/balance) when you are not even/correct in your seat, so this has helped me fix a bad habit of overweighting my left seat bone. The other thing is that I tended to have to constantly reposition my leg back when in the County (chair seat tendancy). My leg position has not been an issue in the Ansur.

I'm using Stubben leathers, which are pretty substantial and positioned the buckle near the iron. A leather sleeve from Dressage Extensions holds the end of the leathers. I don't think I'd like stretchy stirrup leathers, LOL. Since the leathers attach on a ring instead of a bar, you are supposed to use safety stirrups.

Some horses that are a bit muttony withered or down hill required a bit of extra padding in the front area of the Ansur because is is flexible front to back, too. This helps keep the rider from going forward.

Mine came with average knee rolls that can be detached. The also have small and large knee rolls.

I did take a few rides to get used to the feel of the Ansur. Sitting trot took the longest, but only a few rides.

I personally know a couple of people that decided it wasn't for them. Tad Coffin is now makeing a nice saddle that is a good "back to basics" design - flatter seat, minimum leg padding, etc. My riding instructor likes this one a lot.

Cheers.

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 11:18 pm:

Chris, thanks for all the info. I'll take a look at the web site. Pam

Colleen Coatsworth

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 8, 2000 - 4:28 pm:

Angela--

I have a source for generic Legend, which is MUCH cheaper, and has been very effective for my TB, but not Adequan. Let me know if you want the info. to get this. And, if you do find another, less expensive, source of Adequan, please post it.

Thanks!

Colleen

Cheryl Anderson

Posted on Sunday, Mar 12, 2000 - 12:41 am:

A while back this discussion touched on MSM then moved on to another topic. Reading other postings I gather that MSM is an anti-inflammatory...
Dr O - Can you comment on what MSM is, what it is supposed to do and how it works? (big question, I know...). Would it make sense to give MSM (or another anti-inflammatory) as a regular supplement along with glucosamine/chondritins?

Posted on Sunday, Mar 12, 2000 - 11:31 am:

Hello Cheryl,
MSM has been covered in a number of other discussions, run a keyword search on MSM with no time limits for discussions. It is also refered to in: Care for Horses: Nutrition: Current Concepts in Nutrition
DrO

Tonja Ehalt (Tonja)

Posted on Thursday, Aug 9, 2001 - 1:55 pm:

Hello I am reading about vit e supplementing for stiffness and such. I see the people on this forum take 200-1000 mg a day. Should my horse get 50-100? Do they need less, obtain more of it through diet and environment, and utilize it better?
Thanks,
Tonja

Lynn Gutstadt (Lynng)

Posted on Thursday, Dec 6, 2001 - 12:25 am:

I am currently giving my arthritic 15 y.o. QH Equinyl CM, containing MSM, glucosamine and chondroitin, and that I buy at my local tack shop. (Also feeding yucca and flaxseed for the omega3 fatty acids). My vet and trainer recently suggested I might want to put him on Cosequin, which, after some research, appears to have virtually the same ingredients but is available only through a vet. Is there any significant difference between over the counter and by prescription, if the ingredients are pure and the dosage equivalent?
LynnG

Dorothea D. Linklater (Deedles)

Posted on Thursday, Dec 6, 2001 - 7:07 am:

The short answer is we do not know: differences in the origin of the active ingredients, differences in processing, and even differences in handling, age of the product, and the other chemicals used as binders and fillers may all effect efficacy.

What we know is that efficacy research has been done on the Cosequin with positive results and that the company does a good job of providing the stated nutrients on the container. This is not true of other companies and some products when tested have been found to be deficient in their stated ingredients. I do not have any information about Equinyl however.

I guess the question really is did you achieve the desired results with the Equinyl? If so, why change(?) and if not perhaps trying the Cosequin is the way to go.
DrO

Kathy Herring (Tobiano)

Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2002 - 12:48 am:

Hello - I was reading all the questions and discussions on Joint Supplements. The best product out there is Gluquestrian. My horses 20 and 21 are both doing really great on this product. Go to www.equinearthritis.com for all the information. The cheepest I have found the product is from Drop In a Bucket. You can visit them on-line at www.dropinbucket.com.

The drs. and vets who developed this product have a really good article called The Good, the Bad, and the useless. It is very interesting on why not to use Yucca, Chondroitin etc. Hope this helps answer some of your questions. Thanks, Kathy

Fiona Farrell (Lala)

Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2002 - 10:31 am:

Re Cosequin -- after buying some at $175 from my vet found out that same size is now available directly from Nutramax for $149 (plus I imagine S&H) and there is a larger size that is supposed to be most economical way to go. Don't have info on hand on how to order, I'm going to do a web search when it's time and their ads are everywhere in horse pubs also. Based on their large marketing/ad budget I figure may be paying for some of that in the price but is only product with any specifc research backing it up so that's where my rapidly-non-existent dollars are now going.

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2002 - 1:11 am:

I have heard of a product called Chondroprotec, which is similar to Adequan. It is packaged as a topical, but in vials suitable for injecting. ( I believe they are dealing with a labelling issue here, without specific clinical trials for osteoarthritis.)

My vet says that it lacks the chondroitin elements of Adequan, but it is much cheaper and may be worth a try, especially if you can administer it more economically. What do you think of it, Dr. O?

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2002 - 8:34 am:

Hello Dorothea,
What is in Chondroprotec and how much of it is there per dose?
DrO

Jordana Meisner (Presario)

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2002 - 8:25 pm:

Dr O - you can see chondroprotec at http://www.hymed.com/chondrop.htm, as well as hycoat, the generic equivalant to Legend, or so "they" say. I don't remember the pricing or the dosage, but do remember that it ends up being about $10/shot equivalent to a shot of Adequan.

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2002 - 8:39 pm:

DrO, I too would love to know if these are "just as good" as Adequan and Legend. My horse gets both, and it sure gets expensive.

Leah Hinnefeld (Belhaven)

Posted on Saturday, Feb 2, 2002 - 8:57 am:

I switched my older gelding to generic glucosamine from Adequan last year sometime. It is FAR cheaper and for him works better than Adequan.

From what I have read and observed you just have to give these things a try-some work beter on one horse over antoher.

The price per shot is about $45-50 fro Adequan vs. $10 for generic. One of the benefits is you can give it more often at less expense-which might be why it seems to work better for some horses.

Posted on Saturday, Feb 2, 2002 - 9:08 am:

Leah, what's the name of the generic you buy and where do you get it?

Leah Hinnefeld (Belhaven)

Posted on Saturday, Feb 2, 2002 - 4:23 pm:

It is just a plain brown bottle with a white label that says Glucosamine on it. It comes is a 50ml bottle and doses are 10ml-so you get 5 doses per bottle ($50) per bottle.

For a very large horse you can give 12.5ml doses and then get 4 dosese per bottle. My 16.2 fat Tb does just fine on 10ml doses.

I buy it from my vet.

Posted on Monday, Feb 4, 2002 - 8:27 am:

Hello Everyone,
The company that makes Chondroprotec and Hycoat, Neogen, is a reputable company but these are unlabeled uses for these products. It is some folks belief that these products are actually designed for this unlabeled use but labeled this way to avoid the extreme expense of goverment approval. Sooo....

The chemical glucosamine is probably pretty much the same from product to product. Concerning hyaluronate, there can be remarkable differences in the length of the chains and the argument continues whether short chains are as good as long chains. However the Neogen product uses relatively long chains. If you use these products you do so at your own risk and I really have no way to evaluate this risk. I still use labelled products but if I had a heavy user (I don't) of these drugs I think I would discuss this option.

One last comment to Leah of the use of compounded poorly labelled drugs. It is unlikely you would see a remarkable difference in one glucosamine product vs another. I presume in this case your vet monitors the compounding company closely but a warning to everyone there is a high rate of "varying difficulties" with compounded medications so beware: when buying medicine always deal with someone you know.
DrO

Leah Hinnefeld (Belhaven)

Posted on Monday, Feb 4, 2002 - 7:33 pm:

Thanks for the warning Dr O-I had no idea there could be a concern. This product is used by a couple of local vets-I assume they get it from the same company and that it would be well monitored.

I would hate to be passing on bad information...

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 5, 2002 - 10:24 pm:

DrO, I'd love to find a way to bring down the cost of the Adequan my horse continues to get monthly, so a cheaper generic is a very appealing idea. But, these are multiple-dose vials. How long can I store & reuse a vial once I've syringed the first dose? Does it help to refrigerate between doses?
Thanks,
Melissa

Posted on Thursday, Jun 6, 2002 - 8:33 am:

First be careful the generic is obtained through a reputable source. The world wide availabity of drugs through the internet is creating an explosion of fakes.

How long it is safe following initial usage will depend on formulation. Things like diluents, preservatives, and antimicrobials that are added to make repeated use safe all effect the shelf life. You should follow the manufacturer's labelled or insert directions and if there are none I would wonder about the contents of the vial.
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 6, 2002 - 8:59 am:

I buy the 4-dose pack of Adequan for my mare's monthly shots. I keep it in the refrigerator, and I've had no problems.

Posted on Thursday, Jun 6, 2002 - 4:02 pm:

Thanks DrO, it was Chondroprotec I was thinking of, and it's an off-label use so no guidance from the manufacturer.

Sandra, what do you pay for a 4-dose pack?

Posted on Thursday, Jun 6, 2002 - 5:14 pm:

Adequan IM box of 4 is $179.95 at www.kvvet.com

I've also been experimenting with the Chondroprotec but haven't tried it enough yet to make up my mind. Is it working well for you?

Posted on Thursday, Jun 6, 2002 - 6:08 pm:

Sandra, that's about what I pay for Adequan, sometimes my vet charges me a little less.

I haven't tried Chondroprotec yet -- but would if I felt comfortable using 2-dose vials, as I think it comes only in 10ml vials -- is that right? How frequently do you dose?

Posted on Thursday, Jun 6, 2002 - 7:17 pm:

I do once a month. The 2-dose vials are no big deal. Just use half (5ml) one month and half the next. The 5ml vials are much more convenient, though. But like I said, I'm still experimenting. I've tried it once or twice but I think this summer I'll try it for a while and see how it does compared to the Adequan.

Posted on Friday, Jun 7, 2002 - 11:14 am:

Thanks, Sandra, it sounds like it's safe to store a half-used vial for a month. That was my concern.

On the topic of whether this is as effective as Adequan, I don't know how I'd assess that, since I don't see any improvement from the Adequan. Do you? We're doing it because my vet thinks it could help slow the progress of his DJD.

I was thinking we could try dosing twice as often for the same cost with the Chondroprotec, and see if there is any improvement. If not, we could go back to the once/month schedule and put the savings into the NSAIDs that we already use to manage his pain.

Thanks again for writing,
Melissa

Posted on Friday, Jun 7, 2002 - 1:39 pm:

The Adequan definitely makes a difference with my older mare. If I go over 4 weeks, she becomes noticeably off in the left fore. A shot of Adequan and she's sound again.

What does your vet say about the lack of improvement you're seeing from the Adequan? How long have you used it? What NSAIDs are you giving him?

Posted on Friday, Jun 7, 2002 - 3:10 pm:

Thanks, it's encouraging to think he may be getting some benefit then. When my vet initially prescribed the Adequan, he told me I might not feel it was "working" but that it would have some protective effect. I'll pay close attention the next few days, as he's due for his Adequan today. He's been on it about a year.

For about 6 months, I also got him Legend shots, so he got one or the other every 2-3 weeks. The Legend seemed to make him more comfortable, but the effect was quite short-lived, a few days at most, and it's very expensive and is IV.

For NSAIDs we use meclofenamate. Seems to take half the dose we needed with bute, and it's tasteless so he doesn't resist it (he hates bute!). Costs more, though -- I pay about $2.50/g from drugstore.com (volume discount).

Posted on Friday, Jun 7, 2002 - 3:20 pm:

PS - My horse was diagnosed 15 months ago with low ringbone -- in fact a lameness expert who looked at those 15-month old xrays called it "severe DJD" -- so it's not really a surprise that these more subtle therapies don't make him sound, as they do your mare. At best, I'd be hoping to avoid increasing his NSAIDs as his DJD progresses. Thanks!

Janet Schmidt (Sparky)

Posted on Friday, Jun 7, 2002 - 6:32 pm:

Dr. O - all this talk about supplement products and I was told the other day that the horse cannot absorb the ones with "sulphate"? true? false? thanks Janet Schmidt

Posted on Saturday, Jun 8, 2002 - 8:32 pm:

False, but the rate and efficiency of absorption in the horse is not well known. Compound this with there are many sulphate forms and the answer to the question is even less certain. Currently it is believed that adquate amounts are absorbed by the horse that a pharmaceutical effect is possible.
DrO

ANN COLLIER (Dres)

Posted on Sunday, Jun 9, 2002 - 11:27 pm:

glucosamine,msm.... can these products safely be given to a mare in foal???

TIA

Posted on Monday, Jun 10, 2002 - 7:01 am:

It is unknown Ann, but I am unaware of any specific reports of problems.
DrO

Jude Brown (Jude)

Posted on Sunday, Jun 23, 2002 - 3:24 pm:

Hi DrO,

I have read through the long string of messages above and my takeaway is that we don't know much about these treatments yet, and there is no magic cure for degenerative states of the joints.

All that said, we of course, always want to try anything that we think may help our horses without harm. I am still unsure about when injections directly into the hock might be advisable versus regular IM injections. Can you help explain that?

Thanks,

Jude

Posted on Monday, Jun 24, 2002 - 6:48 am:

Hello Jude,
The article Equine Diseases: Lameness: Diseases of Joints : Arthritis and DJD: An Overview explains the reasoning behind when IA injections should be employed.
DrO

Robert L Rudloff (Lora)

Posted on Sunday, Jul 7, 2002 - 9:20 pm:

Dr. O,
What is your opinion on using the glucosamine/chondroitin products as a preventative supplement?

Also, do you have any knowledge (and what is your opinion) of the published research that Absorbine has supported for their product Flex+?

Thank you for your help,
Lora