Use the navigation bar above to access articles and more discussions on this topic.
| Author |
Message |
    
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 999
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 5, 2005 - 8:55 pm: |   |
We have a 15 yr. old mare that tore her knee and had to have arthroscopic knee surgery when she was age 10. She did pretty good for awhile, but the last couple of years is getting a lot of calcification so that her knee looks several times larger than it should. The calcification is preventing her from bending her knee past about 25 degrees. Now, due to her shifting more of her weight onto her right leg, her right front is starting to develop calcification also. Is there anything that can be done to prevent more calcification? Is it wise, especially at her age, to do further surgery to remove some of the calcification? When her pasture turn out is limited so she doesn't buck and run, she is pretty sound, and can be ridden at a walk with no limping. But, at any other gait, or after she's run around she is quite lame. She has a tendency to drag or left front foot, also.
I have her on joint supplements but no anti-inflamitories/pain meds like bute except when she is especially lame. |
Ann
Member
Username: Lilly
Post Number: 47
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 5, 2005 - 9:17 pm: | |
What type of joint supplements? Glucosamine, HA, MSM? Liquid, powder or injections? |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1001
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 6, 2005 - 12:09 am: | |
After trying several, she's been on Fluid Flex for some time now. It seemed to help her the most. It's got 2500 mg Glucosamine, 100 mg Chondroitin, 250 mg yucca. She also gets MSM and a good vitamin/mineral pellet, plus white salt block. She gets a pound of Eq. Senior with everything mixed in with it, and is fed alfalfa/oat/grass mix hay. I try to stay away from Bute as after she had been on it for quite awhile after her surgery, I read an article that said there was evidence that Bute produced more calcification. So, I only use it when she really seems lame, and if she's just a little sore I give her Devil's Claw instead. |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 886
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 6, 2005 - 2:40 am: | |
Sara, I believe my vet here in CA told me that in old horses, there have been recent studies to suggest that the MSM can increase arthritis . . . and I know it is often mixed with the joint supplements. NuFlex has a supplement that is very high in glucosamine with no MSM. |
Ann
Member
Username: Lilly
Post Number: 48
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 6, 2005 - 8:31 am: | |
I would be interested in hearing more about MSM. I have only being hearing really good things about it. I guess it is a great anti-inflammitory and it is relatively cheap when compared to other supplements. I just read somewhere that it is helpful to horses with DSLD. What do you think of it Dr.O? |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 888
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 6, 2005 - 10:15 am: | |
Ann, I am pretty sure the vet said the research was done at UCDavis, so I have made an inquiry of them and hope to get something more concrete. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1002
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 6, 2005 - 11:03 am: | |
Holly-that's the first I've heard that about MSM. I'll do some research and see what I can find and would also be interested in hearing what you can find out from UCDavis.
I've been adding it to her feed because I thought it would increase blood flow and help with the inflammation. But, now that I think about it, increasing blood flow would benefit bone growth also. Hmm...a rock and a hard spot.
I wish there was some way to not only stop future calcification, but to get rid of what she has. At her age I'm just very reluctant to invade the knee capsule. I'm hoping our good doc might have a "miracle cure." She's such a wonderful mare. She was on the show ring for 5 years and the lowest she ever placed was a top ten and that was at Scottsdale. Then, she came home and competed in endurance and finished within a minute of the course record. And, you could put a beginner on her, turn them loose on the trail, and she'd give them a safe ride.
Sorry to brag, but I really love this mare! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14271
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 6, 2005 - 4:52 pm: | |
The research that showed that bute might worsen the arthritis or hasten the formation of extra calcium has been called into questions many times and it is currently thought to have been a bad piece of research. It is fairly well understood that judicious use of NSAID's probably slow the progress of the osteoarthritis while the Devil’s Claw has no such known properties.
The main way you will slow down progress of the DJD will be to quit riding her. Free exercise in a small pasture, oral joint supplements, low dose bute when a little uncomfortable, and an occasional injection of corticosteroid when the lameness really flares are probably your best treatments. For details on each of these see the article on arthritis.
Surgery to remove the calcification will not benefit her Sara, it is not the calcification that is causing the problem but is a result of the problem of an inflammed joint.
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 6, 2005 - 7:28 pm: | |
Dr.O-Thank you for the updated info on Bute. Funny, I read several articles about it not being good, but never later saw anything that refuted those articles. So, I'll take her off the Devil's Claw and put her back on Bute.
She almost never gets ridden anymore, only once in awhile around the fields bareback, but I'll lay off even that. I no longer turn her out in the big fields with the other horses as she always over does and makes herself very sore. I've been turning her out in a "lane" between the fences with her best friend as company and that does seem to work. She walks around a lot nibbling at grass and weeds, but doesn't make herself sore.
The calcification on her "bad" knee is very large; her knee is several inches larger than normal. It seems unusually large to me. That is why I wanted to stop it's growth. I thought that it is hindering the movement of her knee, although it is on the front and side of her knee, not the back. The "good" knee is, as I said, now starting to show calcification also, and I'm just afraid that if or when that knee gets anywhere near as bad as the right knee, I'll have to put her down and I would just love to find something that would put that day off until she just dies of old age. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14280
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 7, 2005 - 12:06 pm: | |
Hello Sara,
You have it exactly right, the calcification will not hinder flexion so much as it is just the pain of the arthritis that prevents fluid movement. As you might imagine over time the excessive exostosis on the front of the knee might prevent complete extension so that the knee takes on a always bent position. This is very uncomfortable for the horse because they cannot lock their legs under them and must always exert muscle force to stand.
Just this Monday in Dr McIlwraith's Milne Lecture on Joints and Joint Disease he reviewed this myth about phenylbutazone and your own experience suggests your horse has not done that well while off of it. I am surprised you have missed my past comments about this as it comes up time to time.
There is some thought that selective COX-2 inhibitors may be easier on the horses digestive system (like naproxen) and we have further information about these in our section on antiinflammatories. All in all considering expense it is not that certain the trade off in horses that don't seem to have problems with bute is worth while.
If there were something else out there that I was aware of it would be in the article on osteoarthritis. There is one thing I am interested in looking at and that is the role of omega-3s in degenerative joint disease and this will be done when we get back in from this conference.
If there were something else out there that I was aware of it would be in the article on osteoarthritis. There is one thing I am interested in looking at, out of the same lecture, and that is the role of omega-3s in the diet and degenerative joint disease and this will be done when we get back in from this conference.
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1010
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 7, 2005 - 1:25 pm: | |
Thank you again, Dr. O. I'm putting her back on a maintenance dosage of Bute and will re-read your articles both on antiinflammatories and on osteoarthritis. I have read them, but not recently.
Would research on humans pertaining to omega-3s in the diet hold true for horses also? I remember seeing just a short time ago an article on omega-3s being a benefit for humans with osteo. I'll have to go find the article and read it as I just kind of skimmed over it.
I envy you hearing lectures by such as Dr. McIlwraith! I've read quite a bit that he's written. So interesting. I'm sure you're enjoying yourself. (not that you're such a slouch yourself  ) |
Ann C
Member
Username: Coomber
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 9:06 am: | |
Greetings Dr. O and readers,
Any news on the omega-3s?
Ann. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14609
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 7:09 am: | |
Still have not had time to review the paper Ann but when I do we will update the article and post it.
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 11:11 am: | |
I have recently been reading articles pertaining to human osteoarthritis that say over acidity of a person's system predisposes them to osteo and that a low acid diet will slow down the progress of the disease, and if started soon enough, even prevent it. Is there a possibility this would pertain to horses also? Though I wouldn't consider the average horse's diet very acidic, I was wondering if somehow lowering the PH in their system would be of benefit. |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 951
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 12:03 pm: | |
Question: Is MSM related to acidity? |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1105
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 12:41 pm: | |
Good question, Holly. I wonder about some of the other supplements, also. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14625
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 8:17 am: | |
Sara, I went searching for such research (acid diet or acidic blood) and can find nothing though the search includes at least a dozen arthritis focused periodicals. In fact it is amazing how many treatments for arthritis are acids (vitamin C, aspirin, linoleic acid to name just a few).
I reviewed a few recent articles on diet and osteoarthritis and could find no suggestions of consuming low acid diets. Are you sure they were not discussion some of the metabolic joint disorders like gout?
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1110
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 9:00 am: | |
Yes. One article from a medical journal was given to me by my cousin,who is a nurse, and the other I read while waiting in the doctor's office the other day. I've got to get my truck in for service this a.m. When I get home I'll try and find the articles. It's evidently very new evidence. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 1112
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 6:23 pm: | |
Ooops. My apologies, Dr. O & everyone else. I can write my poor memory off due to age. The articles were referring to osteoporosis, not osteoarthritis. One study was done by the Osteoporosis Education Project which indicated that the standard eastern diet causes acidosis - lowering of the body's pH - which causes bone loss. I read about it in a local magazine called: SU Health. Seems I remembered the facts backwards; that's perhaps why so many arthritis treatments are acidic, as I believe the two conditions are related. (I'd be dangerous if I could correctly remember everything I read!) |
