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Discussion on "No Bute"

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Bunny Delgado
Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2000 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi there. Has anyone heard of or used a supplement called "NoBute". I have heard some people mention it but no one I know has tried it. It is supposed to be a natural alternative to Bute and therefore claims to be safe. I am looking for just such a product and if anyone knows of one, please let me know.
Thanks,
Bunny
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Sheila Vessey
Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2000 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Bunny...

I've never heard of it but I'm curious to know what's in it. Do you have a breakdown of ingredients? What are you using it for?
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Bunny Delgado
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2000 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Sheila, I found an article about different herbal remedies and the one called NoBute has Devil's Claw. There's another one called Bute-Less and that has Devil's Claw and Yucca. Do you know anything about those ingredients? I'm using bute for my almost 17 yr. old who has some arthritis and bone spurs in his front pasterns. We have managed to keep him sound for the past year on 1 bute pill daily, which I have now reduced to 1/2 a pill daily. When I cut it out all together, he is very sore.
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Sheila Vessey
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2000 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Bunny,

Are those the sole ingredients? I can't recommend the product because I've never used it but Devil's Claw is an anti-inflammatory -- I use it for my hand (I have carpel tunnel syndrome). Yucca is also an anti-inflammatory and very good for arthritis. Another good one is apple cider vinegar (just add an ounce or two to his drinking water daily). You can buy the straight herbs at most health food stores. It may be better quality than a shelf product (it all depends on the product). You could try adding a tablespoon of Yucca twice a day to his feed (along with apple cider vinegar to his water) but realize that the herbs could take a week or two to kick in. It doesn't work for everybody. Is he on a good vitamin/mineral supplement (he may be mineral deficient)? Kelp is good for minerals. And a good source of calicum is limestone (1 tbsp. of each a day added to their feed once a day). You can get limestone at your local feed store. NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE LIME THAT YOU PUT IN YOUR STALLS!!!! Just ask for feed grade (it's crushed up). Garlic is also a good addition as it's a source of sulfur which is necesary for repairing the bone, cartilage and connecive tissues. It also aids in the absorption of calicum. Garlic is actually good for absolutely everything. I give my girls a couple of fresh cloves a day, cut up and added fresh to their feed. These are just suggestions gained from my own experience and by no way an expert opinion -- but if they help you at all, then I'm glad. If you decide to try it, let me know what happens.
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A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2000 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Bunny,

Devil’s Claw is a plant indigenous to southern Africa, but it is better known in Europe. It doesn’t have the side effects of bute but rather can act as a general tonic if given on a daily basis.

I have various pamphlets on devil’s claw, and the historical uses are :
- arthritis, gout, rheumatism, spondylosis-induced back pain
- inflammation, analgesic, sedative, anti-spasmodic
- relieves pain and swelling
- edema, water retention
- indigestion, upset stomach, dyspepsia, bile salt problems
- liver, gallbladder and kidney ailments
- elevated blood sugar
- sluggish immune systems

Most clinical studies have shown that this plant has strong anti-inflammatory properties and is extremely helpful for sufferers of arthritis and inflammatory diseases; it is reported to reduce swelling and pain in joints and improve mobility.

Side effects are rare, but pregnant women or pregnant mares should not be given it in any form as it can stimulate uterine muscle.

I use it successfully as a substitute for bute. It is not as strong, so there can be days or periods when you may need to go back to bute, but long term it is a good product.

I would try it - and combined with Yucca, it would be even better, I'm sure.
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Judy M. Majda
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2000 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Bunny,

I use Bute-Less (which is the Devil's Claw-Yucca combo)and I really like it. I have a 17 yr old Appy who has moonblindness. When he first was diagnosed with it, my vet put him on aspirin every day to help prevent the inflammation of his eye. Unfortunately, the daily dose of aspirin over a month or so, burned his lips (I was using a powder and mixed it with every thing imaginable but it still burned him). Anyhoo, I couldn't put him on bute for such a long extended period of time so I started to search around for alternative anti-inflammatories. I found Bute-Less and I very happy with it. My Appy has been on it for about a year now and it has dramatically cut on down his bad episodes with his eye. Plus, I figured it would also help with any arthritic pain he may be starting to experience as he gets older. It comes in a liquid and I just pour it over his grain. It's very palatable and he likes it. Of course, like all horse things, it's pricey. So far, Riders Warehouse offers it at the lowest price, $12.95 a bottle. I hope this helps.
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Bunny Delgado
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2000 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wow, thank you all so much for your info. I will definetely try the Bute-Less. It sounds like just what I'm looking for.
Sheila, what would be an indication of a mineral deficiency? I feed a good quality pellet-it's called Strider-but he only gets about 2 cups a day because I am trying to get some xtra weight off him. He also has a mineral block. He gets really nice grass hay-nice and green, lots of timothy.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2000 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok here is my first attempt at providing useful information on Herbals. I am using several references but will rely heavily on the Physcian's Desk Reference for Herbal Medicine. This is a compendium of the findings of the German's Commision E's findings. Comission E is an agency that has conduicted an intensive assessmet of the peer reviewed literature on 300 botanicals. It's conclusions represent the best expert consensus on medicinal herbs currently to be found. Also supplementing this information is an exhaustive literature review conducted by Dr. Joerg Gruenwaol and published in the PhytoPharm US Institute of Phytopharmaceuticals.

Concerning Devils Claw: It is the root of Harpagophytum Procumbens. Its actions are derived from monterpenes, phenyethanol derivatines, oligosaccharides and quinones. The known effects are an appetite stimulant, cholerectic (bile stimulation), antiphlogistic (antinflammatory), and mild analgesic effects.

Because Devil's Claw is thought to stimulate gastric secretion it should not be used in the prescense of ulcers. The presence of the chemicals cinnamylic acid and terpene make allergic reactions to this product possible. There are no recorded side effects following the proper administration of this product.

So there you have it. Bunny, if you decide to use this product I would discontinue the use of the bute as then you will have two potentially ulcer inducing drugs. Give the medication 14 days to work and then let us know the results. Including any information on concentration of the herb and dosage will be very helpful.
DrO
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Helen Weedon
Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2000 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Dr O, I have a friend with a pony in its twenties and retired. It used to be a bit stiff and pottery on its legs and a nasty dose of laminitis two years ago didn't help. The vet recommended bute. My friend discovered Devils Claw and swapped on to it. The pony has stayed sound and can get down for a roll and up again like lightning so its legs must be pretty good. My friend did find though that when it was accidentally given bute as well as DC the pony went a bit hyper but that might have been coincidence or just a reaction unique to that animal.
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Sheila Vessey
Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2000 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Way to go Dr. O on the herbal advice! Hey, we'll have you interested in this stuff yet! Okay, well, not yet, but give us time :0)...

Hey Bunny,
Unfortunately I only know a few of the signs of mineral deficiency because of my own two horses. I guess it can vary widely depending on what your horse is deficient in. My vet noticed it on my two through their tail rubbing (which, can also be worms, so it's sometimes hard to tell), plus my young one had splints that I couldn't seem to get the heat out of. We put them on the limestone and kelp and before you know it, the heat was gone from the splints and they stopped rubbing their tails.

I'll be interested in hearing how the Bute-less works. Who makes it?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2000 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Sheila and All,
Why would I change my current practice? I have a product, phenylbutazone, that has had extensive research done on horses, with proven efficacy of remarkable antiinflammatory effects, with a large margin of safety, that costs me 20 cents a dose for a 1000 lb horse. In 15 years of use I have never had a toxic reaction despite occasionally increasing the recommended doses by a factor of 4 (not recommended without vet supervision).

What Devil's Claw offers in trade is a medicine of unknown strength, uncertain actions at any particular dose, and uncertain toxic potential with absolutely no research in the horse that I can find.

I offer this information on herbs because so many of you request it and it is all that is available. I think it is educational for you to realize that these herbs work through chemical mechanisms just like any man made drug. Also you need to see that these herbs contain toxic principles.

Though herbs may have significant and beneficial pharmocolgical actions, they are not magic. They work through biochemical mechanisims. The body uses similar biochemical mechanisims for different bodily functions. To effect one in a benefical manner will usually effect one in a detrimental manner, it is the balance of these two that frequently determines toxicity. Any medication that is going to have a positive action will almost have to have a detrimental action, it is the way the body works.

When you throw in the uncertain potency that comes with natural products and the mix of other pharmacologically active substances that are not related to the disease process you are trying to address, it is very hard to figure herbs place in the direct treatment of disease at this time. Again, I always feel like I am picking on you Sheila, but I really am not, I am just trying to get yo to see this from a side where all factors are considered.
DrO
I apolgize for pushing this post up ahead of the others but I thought it important to get my feelings here.
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A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke
Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2000 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello those interested persons :

I phoned Cape Town this morning and spoke to a lady whose company seems to manufacture a great deal of the Devils Claw that is exported around the world. She is very nice and very knowledgeable. Her name is Sue Morley, her company is Au Naturel, and her telephone number is [+27 12] 783 2592.

She has a small web site but it just gives very basic information on her products, so it would be better to talk to her personally for specific queries.

One interesting point she raised is that, being herbal and natural, it takes +/- 6 weeks for Devil's Claw to absorb into the system and take effect, so it is really a long term treatment.

If anyone has a specific question and finds it difficult to phone her, post a message or e-mail me and I'll phone her and get back to you.

Alexa
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A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke
Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2000 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh - meant to comment on your worries about a mineral deficiency with your horses. You seem to be feeding a good diet, nice hay and minimal concentrates - you are providing a mineral block -I'm sure the horse[s] are out during the day; it is therefore really unlikely that your horses have a mineral deficiency. they will show you if something is wrong by chewing strange things, or adopting the beastly habit of eating droppings, or stripping the bark of trees, etc. etc.
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Dr. Carol Artlett
Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2000 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Caution should be excersized with using herbs. Herbal use is very much a fad these days and some of them have extremely wild unproven and false claims. The problem is that not many herbs are FDA approved because the claims that are made about a herb have not been validated. Also some herbs are actually toxic, for example camomile, which some drink as a mood calmer/put you to sleep at night drink, is actually toxic in not so high doses. Some herbs react adversely with some foods and other medications.
Just be cautious and don't believe everything a herb says it does.

Carol
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Joy Drost
Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2000 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Powdered bute is a great alternative to the pills. My vet recommended it to me because it doesn't seem to irritate the horses stomach as badly as the pills....possibly because it is mixed in with the feed rather than lumped in a pill. I myself have never had any success with Bute-Less...the biggest problem was getting the horse to eat it because it smells terrible!!! If you're really looking for an anti-inflammatory fix try feeding MSM daily...it works great!!! Let me know if you're interested and I'll put you in touch with someone that can get you a great deal on MSM...much better than any of the others on the market.
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A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke
Posted on Saturday, Feb 5, 2000 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. O,

As you have just read up about Devils Claw, and understand what all the ingredients are, could you please tell me if any ingredient could cause a horse to suddenly walk with a “pottery” gait, specially in front – like a little old man.

My 20 year old TB, Desert Scout, fractured his skull just before Christmas. He lost his eye 3 years ago, and I think he was kicked when playing with Bellini – there was a mark on the edge of the empty eye socket. I have been terrified of this since he lost his eye. He has a bone sequester exactly in the middle of the fracture, which runs from eye to eye. After a week, he developed a bad sinus infection, which needed antibiotics for one week to cure it, and then the swelling blew up in the middle which X-rays showed to be the sequester. Initially, my vet said we would have to operate to remove it but he took the X-rays to the ex-Head of Surgery from Onderstepoort Veterinary Hospital, who now practices privately, and that Professor said he would rather be conservative and leave it for 4-6 weeks, then re-Xray, in the hope that the bone will re-absorb. They are very worried about giving Desie a general anaesthetic, as he is highly strung and fragile, and didn’t handle the op to remove his eye very well, physically or mentally.

He was on bute for the pain and swelling for quite a while, but then the vets were loth to give him more, which is when I put him on Devils Claw. He has only been on it since 26 January, 15g morning and night, and has suddenly gone pottery. It seems too much of a coincidence that he has suddenly developed arthritic front legs.

Or could the sequester be doing this? I would very much appreciate your comments and advice.

Alexa
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Bunny Delgado
Posted on Saturday, Feb 5, 2000 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear DrO and all, I have the bottle of Bute Less in front of me. the ingredients are as follows: Water, Dextrose, Yucca (yucca lilicea) extract (a flavoring agent), Devil's Claw (Harpagophytum Procumbens), Xanthan Gum natural and artificial flavoring. Feeding Directions: For Horses: Feed with the horse's regular feed or give orally. Feed 1 OX (30 Ml) for an average 1100 lb horse. Feed others accordingly to body weight, etc.
It does not give the amount of each ingredient.

Now, I'm a bit concerned about what you said about the ulcers. One of the reasons for beginning this and taking my horse off bute is the fear of him developing ulcers or other problems from the bute. How would I know if he has ulcers? I am also, as you, cautious about any untested or unregulated product, be it an herb or man made chemical. So, what to do, what to do?
Bunny
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Sheila Vessey
Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2000 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. O and gang,

I have not heard or read anywhere that Devil's Claw or Yucca (I'm just including it because it also does the same job and might be a good alternative) causes ulcers... where did you read that?

As well, I've never had a problem adding yucca (or any herb for that matter) directly to the feed, without artificial flavouring, etc. To me it makes sense just to use the real thing (it's most likely cheaper as well, as you're not paying for the name of the product...).

Also Bunny there are TONS of books out that go through the pros and cons of herbs -- if this is a route that you're interested in taking, it may benefit you to check a few of them out. Any good health food store will carry them...

Best of luck!
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2000 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello All,
Sheila, I used the references that were listed in the post. Reread the post Sheila, you have not understood what I wrote.

Bunny, without scoping the horse and looking at the stomach you will not know. If you have no clinical signs of ulcers you should proceed as though you do not. With your vets oversight and with a mind to the cautions I have given above.
DrO
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Sheila Vessey
Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2000 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, I must've misread your post since I thought it implied that Devil's Claw caused ulcers.

And, in going back to re-read it, I just noticed that there's an extra post out of order further up that I hadn't read. Dr. O, of course you will not change your practice. However, if it were my horse, I would have no interest in leaving him on bute for extended periods (which it sounds like there are horses kept on bute for years because people think it's the only thing that works...) and would want to find an alternate way to treat him. Sure, there are side effects or toxic effects to SOME herbs, but fewer people/animals have suffered from the effects of herbs, than they have the effects of drugs. I feel like we're repeating a conversation here, so I'll leave it at that.
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Helen Weedon
Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2000 - 7:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Alexa - have someone check Desert Scout for laminitis. Stress and toxicity from infections can bring it on especially in older horses and the symptoms can appear practically overnight.
Poor old thing doesn't have alot of luck with his head, does he? Perhaps you should get him a safety helmet!
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karen Zero
Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2000 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. O., if one gives Bute-Less is that horse going to test positive with the AHSA? I understand that alot of herbs know do test positive. And when would you have to stop giving it prior to an AHSA event?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2000 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Karen,
I do not know, it (Devils Claw) is not listed on any known list of problems that I have seen, but no promises.
DrO
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Alicia Melton
Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2000 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr O and everyone,
I tried the Bute-Less on my gelding who gets regular doses of bute. There have been no side affects with the bute. With 2 doses of Bute-Less he was on the ground colicing. After a vet call that included a scathing lecture on miracle snake oil, following veterinary instructions and the lack of real research on supplements my horse and I are going to be fine. I showed my vet the bottle of Bute-Less. He thought the product was probably effective since the horse wouldn't be lame after he was dead. I realize that not all animals will react the same way, but this horse is not prone to colic or stomach problems so BEWARE.
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Joy Drost
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2000 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Alicia,

Is your vet able to get powdered bute? It seems to work just as well as pills or injections but doesn't seem to irritate the stomach as much. If you're not able to get it from your vet let me know and I'll put you in touch with mine.

Joy
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linda kemper
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2000 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Alicia,
I would like the powdered Bute.
Please e-mail me your vet's name.
Linda
Linda_kemper@msn.com
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Alicia Melton
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 16, 2000 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Joy,
The powdered Bute is what my horse normally gets with no problems. What he had a reaction to was the BUTE-LESS. Thanks for the thought though.
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DESTINE HAMASAKI
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi. I just joined Horseman's Advsor. I have a sixteen year gelding who has ringbone in his right pastern. Last year I tried a product called zerobute which appeared to help him. I stopped using zerobute last September, as my horse Breeze contacted a very bad case of white line in his left hoof. Breeze has fully recovered from the white line infection and I am now trying to find an alternative to bute to treat his ringbone. Has anyone tried zerobute or a product called Lame-a-way? Lame-a-way contains glucosamine sulfates, yucca, shark cartilage, amino acids, ginger, geletin, bioflavnoids, Ester C, MSM, CoEnzyme Q10, OPC Grape Seed Extract, Antioxidants. Breeze is my first horse and I would appreciate any comments regarding zerobute and Lame-a-way. Thanks.
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JUDY McDONALD (Jam49)
Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2001 - 4:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Since these posts were last yr has anyone had any problems with the Bute-Less paste?
I have been using 6 crushed tablets of aspirin for my horse who has DJD of the hocks when ever we go for a ride. We will be going into the mountains (wilderness) for a week the last of July and I see that KV VET has Bute-Less in the paste form. It would sure make things alot easier if I could just take 3 of the paste in instead of the grain and extra molasses in to mix,
my horse is real easy to give medicine this way.
He is allergic to Bute paste.
Thanks, Judy
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Teresa A Daignault (Outlook)
Posted on Sunday, Dec 16, 2001 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Dr. "O",
I have a 17 yr old gelding Palomino who is arthritic in his hocks. He is worse in the winter months and I have found that 1 gram of bute of day helps him tremendously. I tried the bute-less recently, and after 6 days found him back to his uncomfortable, stiff self, barely able to move his hind end.
Is it a problem to continue him on the bute long term? I am worried about his stomach and kidneys, but it almost seems worse not to give him the bute as it provides him with so much comfort.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2001 - 8:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sheila, I did not say I would not change my practice, I asked for a good reason to change it.

Theresa, this is a often discussed problem. I have edited the article Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals: Anti-inflammatories, Steroids, and Arthritis Treatment: Use of Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs, NSAID's: An Overview of NSAID's to contain information on this and should have it uploaded by noon. I hope it helps.
DrO
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