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Discussion on Sedate filly recovering from injury for trailering...???
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Lee Canning
New Member
Username: Leec
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 17, 2005 - 6:40 pm: |   |
Hi – I’m new at this, so hope I’ve put this in the right place. I’ll also apologize ahead of time for the length of my post...
I’m looking for advice on transporting my 8 month old Appendix filly, Sienna, who is recovering from a stifle injury she sustained at 2 weeks old. I will try to make a long story short, but I feel I need to give some sense of the situation. The incident was not witnessed, but we have concluded she was probably kicked by her dam. X-rays showed bone/cartilage damage to the tibia in her right stifle as well there was as a hematoma that evolved into an abscess near the same area. Prognosis for recovery was not good and we made the excruciatingly painful decision to euthanize her. However, on the morning of 'dooms day' she showed signs of improvement, so we dug in with her and thankfully she is still with us. We weaned Sienna at 3 months old, as she had to be confined and we were concerned about her mother possibly injuring her again since the mare (a rather high strung TB) was not dealing with the confinement well. I sold the mare about the same time she was weaned (not because of anything that happened - I had always planned to sell her after the baby was weaned) and Sienna has not seen another horse in about 5 months. We don’t know if she will ever be sound enough to ride, but she has not been visibly lame since September 17th, appears to be happy and plays as much as any other foal I have ever seen, so that is what counts (she is still confined to a 30’x40’ paddock). The treatment of her injury and no doubt being confined and away from other horses has had some psychological effects on her. For a month at the vet clinic she had to be restrained and forced to put up with daily IM antibiotics, oral pain suppressants, painful palpating, abscess draining, and sedation for many sets of x-rays. She does not understand that this was for her own good and HAS NOT FORGOTTEN IT – to her, it was unjust punishment. As a result, when strangers or another person approaches her with me, she gets pretty worried. Oddly enough though, she has always been fantastic for the Farrier... At the vet clinic, she developed the defense mechanism of first turning her butt to 'those mean people' as a threat, and then eventually kicking out when they didn’t go away. At 6 weeks old she wasn’t much of a problem to the vets and assistants, but she now weighs 525lbs, is almost 14hh at the wither and she’s fast, strong and VERY smart. When I first brought her home, she tried her 'tough act' a few times with me, but she has learned to trust me and hasn’t done it for a long time. In the middle of January I plan to take Sienna to the farm where her sire stands, and gradually introduce her to turn-out and integrate her into their weanling herd. My vet feels she is ready for this and we all feel it is so important for her mind that she learns about 'herd dynamics', gets to experience 'just being a baby horse' and spends some time with people other than myself. The farm she is going to is about a 50 horse operation, they breed, show and sell quality performance horses (for the QH people, they own and stand Dynamics Impression, a son of Dynamic Deluxe) – they are very experienced and have followed 'Sienna’s Journey' from the beginning and are happy to help make this work for her. Here’s now the reason for my post... Sienna has not been in a horse trailer since she was 6 weeks old, when she was brought home from the vet clinic with her mom (Sienna loaded fine, her mom did not...). I do not have a horse trailer or would have been teaching her to load this fall. A friend has offered to take her out to the farm with her trailer. We live in B.C., Canada and we have snow. We can just make it out of our steep driveway with 4x4’s, but there is no way even a 4x4 is going to pull a horse trailer up it until April. We will have to walk Sienna to the top of the driveway to load her. She has not been out of her little paddock since the end of September. She is going to be very excited and nervous. She will be no trouble to get up the driveway, but I am concerned about the loading/trailering part. I feel I may need more than myself to get her loaded, so I can see her being freaked about the additional people. We will take all the time in the world to load her, so she will have to go in at some point. However, I am afraid of her panicking in the trailer and hurting herself during transit and at the other end there will be an unfamiliar place, more new faces etc. She has a full winter coat, so I am also worried about the sweat/chill factor. My thought was to give her a mild sedative for this 'event' to help keep her stress level down so she won’t panic and hurt herself. Would this be a good idea? It would have to be something that would still allow her to keep her balance in the trailer. Also, NO NEEDLES – must be something I can give in her grain or orally, like a paste de-wormer. Any suggestions of what to use would be greatly appreciated. I think it’s really important I try to make this an okay experience for her after all she’s been through.
Lee C |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14328
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 19, 2005 - 8:52 am: | |
Welcome Lee,
She could be fed some acepromazine, put in her feed. For dosages effects etc...see, Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Sedatives & Anesthetics » Acepromazine.
DrO |
Little King Ranch
Member
Username: Eoeo
Post Number: 231
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 19, 2005 - 9:38 am: | |
I have used ace in the feed before, plus I have given it orally. On the dosages, it calls for .5 to 4 mgs per 100 lbs. What does this mean in ccs since I use the liquid ace? Thanks for any enlightenment.
EO |
Lee Canning
New Member
Username: Leec
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 19, 2005 - 1:34 pm: | |
Thank you for your replies. The article states for IV administration it takes about 20 minutes for the Ace to take full effect. Will giving it to her in her grain take it longer to reach the full effect – the 30-60 minutes that is mentioned? She will get 4 lbs of concentrate at breakfast, 2.5 lbs Alfalfa and free choice orchard grass mix. So, if we don’t load her until noon, she will have consumed much of all of the above – will this amount of food perhaps keep the Ace from reaching its desired effect? Do you think I should cut back on her breakfast that morning? The article also makes note that more of the drug is required for excitable horses, I would say she is definitely a more excitable horse than a calm horse. Therefore, would I be best giving her the middle to higher end of the recommended dosage, or is there too much risk that it might that affect her ability to stand in the trailer (we will be traveling for about an hour)?
Lee C |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14340
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 8:11 am: | |
LKR, the number of cc's you give will depend on the concentration of your preparation and the weight of your horse. The formula for the amount to give would be:
dosage rate x weight
concentration
Always check to sure your units are consistent throughout.
There are studies that show rapid absorption following oral administration but this is probably very variable depending on the amount of food in the stomach and maybe even the age of the horse. Just guessing I would give it about 45 minutes before wanting to load but better in a situation like you have is to do a trial run or two to optimize dosages and timing. Yes if you have a highly excitable horse you may need larger doses and when given orally higher doses are required than when given by injection. I would start at the high end dosage with the approval of your regular veterinarian.
DrO |
Lee Canning
New Member
Username: Leec
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 12:00 pm: | |
Thanks Dr. O. I will be in touch with my regular vet this week. I will post what she comes up with if different than what we've been discussing.
Lee C |
Lee Canning
New Member
Username: Leec
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2005 - 4:35 pm: | |
Hi Dr. O
I have picked up the Ace from my vet. It is in granular form and my instructions are to give 2 small scoops = 40mg every 12 hours on the day before trailering (so, in AM and PM of day prior) and 40mg on the morning of trailering. She noted that this is the maximum dose for my filly and wants me to do a trial and report to her. From there we will determine if the dose is too high. I will be home all day Friday, so plan to do the trial then. For anyone who’s interested, I will post the results of the trial.
Lee C |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14345
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 21, 2005 - 6:38 am: | |
Thanks Lee, be sure to also let us know what your filly weighs?
DrO |
Lee Canning
Member
Username: Leec
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 23, 2005 - 6:06 pm: | |
Here are the observations from the Ace trial with my 8 month old Appendix filly, Sienna (taped at 544 lbs). At 9:00am I put 40 mg of the granular Ace form in her 3.75 lbs of grain, I put her 2.5 lbs of alfalfa in her shelter as usual, which is where she eats her grain. I put her flake of grass mix hay outside the shelter, per usual. At 9:15am she came out of her shelter (done her grain) and went to her grass hay – odd, she usually eats her alfalfa first. At 9:30am it was obvious she was moving slower than normal. She ate for a bit then went to her 'dozing corner', and did just that. At 10:15am she went back to the grass hay, laid down in it, took a mouthful and chewed – odd again, she hasn’t laid down outside her shelter since she was 3 months old. I continued to watch - she only lay down for 4 minutes... She then got up and wandered around slowly, eating hay occasionally, had a drink, pooped, peed etc. At 11:15am I went outside to see how much I could stir her up. I haltered her and moved her around - she was at about 1/2 her energy level, but definitely not uncoordinated and still capable of trotting, turning and holding up her feet without any sign of tipsiness - I was also still able to spook her, however she 'unspooked' more quickly than usual. I prodded some of the areas where she's most sensitive and she still had the reflexes to react. At noon I observed her playing with her big green ball, but only pushing it around with her nose, as opposed to jumping, rearing, bucking and kicking at it like she normally would. I called my vet and let her know how it went. She felt the dose was just right and that we should plan to be loading her into the trailer within the time frame where she was the quietest. Does that sound about right, Dr O? To finish, Sienna had her usual afternoon nap in her shelter at 2:00pm. At 2:30pm she is playing in her water trough with her nose, behaving as her normal self. I will post an update in mid-January, after the actual trailering event.
Lee C |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14371
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 24, 2005 - 11:04 am: | |
Though this dosage is about twice what we recommend for injection, sedation without noticeable incoordination sounds about right to me.
DrO |
Lee Canning
Member
Username: Leec
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2005 - 1:19 pm: | |
Yes, the dose does appear high compared to the article. The manufacturers recommended dosage on my container of Ace is: 20–40 mg (5-10 ml or 1-2 small scoops) per 454 kg (1000 lbs) body weight. To see if it might be possible to get by with less, 2 days after my original trial I tried giving Sienna only half (20 mg) of what I originally gave her. My observation was that her energy and excitability levels did not diminish to any extent that I could notice. Perhaps she requires the higher dosage due to the fact that she possesses an excitable, nervous temperament, and maybe because the medication is diluted in 3.75 lbs of grain???
Lee C |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14385
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 28, 2005 - 6:19 am: | |
This is not unexpected Lee, many horses require above recommended levels when fed ace. Usually I get to them the other way, first trying the high side of recommended dosages and then there are many that need to go above that for a desired response.
DrO |
Lee Canning
Member
Username: Leec
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 25, 2006 - 1:53 pm: | |
Hi all,
Here's an update on my post... We decided not to trailer my filly to the 'big farm' at this time, as some of their weanlings have 'snotty noses'. In the meantime, we are going away for 2 weeks, so we have taken my filly to a neighbours (who has horses) to be cared for while we are gone. I gave her the Ace in her grain prior to leading her over there - the distance is about half a mile. There were 2 of us, one on each side with lead rope. Even with the Ace in her system she was very strong - not crazy, but wanted to go - a few rears and tried to bolt a couple of times. One person would have struggled trying to hold her. From this I learned that although she was less spooky, the Ace did not 'sedate' her. Once at my neighbours, she spent an hour or so animatedly trotting around, tail in the air, snorting. She was only mildly interested in the weanling in the paddock beside hers. However, without the Ace, I suspect she would have been tearing around at a mad gallop, bucking, kicking, rearing etc. All in all, I think the Ace helped, but I would continue to use the same amount of caution and attention around a horse that's on it, as with one that isn't.
LeeC |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14610
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 7:12 am: | |
Why not teach this filly to lead Lee?
DrO |
Lee Canning
Member
Username: Leec
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 2:07 pm: | |
Hi DrO
She does know how to lead and quite well, normally... She will also stand tied for hours on end. However, she had not been out of her small paddock for such a long time and all that pent up energy and seeing new surroundings made her 'very excited'. I have not experienced this side of her on a lead line before, but I enlisted a helper, just in case. Before it snowed last October, I had no problems leading her around the yard on a slack line. The road to my neighbors is very steep and icy in places so we elected to just get her there as quietly as we could. Had the footing been better, I would have put a chain on her and treated it like a lesson. However, I wasn’t sure what her reaction would be so I didn’t feel comfortable about doing that for this event, given the conditions. Where she is now, there are lots of safe areas to work with her, so I can deal with this pushy business there. She does not pull back – it is forward she wants to go, and in a hurry. The half rears and bolts were more like little lunges - an attempt to try and go forward faster. Do you agree that a chain over the nose would be the best way to send her back? I have read your article – this discussion is kind of out of place here now, isn’t it...
LeeC |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14619
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 26, 2006 - 6:19 pm: | |
Discussions always wind around like this, and this is perfectly fine here. In fact I think the sudden shifts in a discussion about an issue are educational.
We use chains over the nose all the time and find it an excellent tool for training horses to not lunge forward. However like all tools it can be misused. We have some thoughts of this at, Training Horses » Training Your Horse's Mind » Halter Training and Tying Horses.
DrO |
Lee Canning
Member
Username: Leec
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 1:47 pm: | |
Hi DrO
I read what you suggested - very informative. I have some experience with a chain. This filly’s dam is an OTTB and in certain situations I used one on her to get her attention. It didn’t take much as she knew what it was about – even just putting it on her sometimes had the desired effect. However, I have not used one on a baby horse and I certainly don’t want to scare her. I was thinking a bit of pressure to let her know it’s there for the first few times before I let her 'run into it' would be best. I did some ground work with her yesterday (no chain), backing up, stopping and driving her in a circle around me with her on the lead rope. I noticed that when she’s good, she’s really good – when she’s bad, she’s really bad... When working with her, she is pleasant until she doesn’t want to do it anymore. Then she’ll try to make a game out of it – head shaking, neck arched, striking out with forefeet. Her ears aren’t pinned – it more appears she’s trying to 'spice it up' a bit. If I attempt to discipline that behavior, she does get mad – more of the above behavior, but with more energy plus rearing and kicking out. It took awhile to get her to settle down and to end the session on a good note (we were both drenched in sweat). In comparing her to the colt of the same age next to her, she has a more confident, dominant, playful (prankster) personality. Being that she is of this type, should I push her to the point of 'temper tantrum' or should I end it while she is being good, near the start? Any advice on dealing with this 'personality type' would be appreciated – I would like to get this sorted out before she gets much bigger! The other thing she did (which she’s never done before) was just as I had the buckle of her halter undone, she shook her head furiously and jumped forward a couple steps. Luckily, the halter stayed on her face and she stood while I finished removing it, so she didn’t 'get away'. However, I certainly don’t want that to become a habit! I thought next time I would take another halter and put it on and take it off for however many times it takes until she behaves, while I still have a hold of the lead attached to the halter underneath...
LeeC |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 14634
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Jan 28, 2006 - 9:42 am: | |
The trick to teaching her without scaring her is to start in an area where you can keep control no matter what happens. Start in a large stall or small working pen so if she does become alarmed there is no place to bolt. I don't think intentionally pushing horses to bad behavior sends the message you want the horse to hear. It is better to reward the good behavior you see.
The chain should not be looked on as a tool of punishment but as a lever to help guide the horse to correct behavior.
DrO |
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