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Discussion on Mentally unbalanced mare
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Sheryl L Wilkins
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2000 - 10:32 am: |   |
I have been working with a really difficult mare for over a year and a half. We have gone back to the basics and things have improved but we have hit a wall. A few years ago, the owner sent her to a vet hospital and they gave her Prolyxin?sp It is a anti psychotic I understand. We are going to try it again. If that doesn't help her, what else can I try. She is ok at the walk and trot but as soon as you want to do any transitions from trot to canter, she gets neurotic and hopping up and down. She will do canter walk transitions but the owner still has a rough time with them. She would canter all day if you let her, she seems to have endless energy. Thanks, I will give more details if needed to help understand the problem.
Sheryl |
Christine C. Mills
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2000 - 3:14 pm: | |
Saddle fit problems often show up with canter work. Can you rule this out as a problem?
Also try moving the saddle back a little such that the shoulder is free and not being pinched - this can happen at the canter.
How does the horse work on the lunge without a rider at the canter? |
Sheryl L Wilkins
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2000 - 3:40 pm: | |
She is fine on the lunge and long lined. This saddle seems to fit her fine. I have had about 5 saddles on her and this one seems to fit her best. It is a dressage saddle so we do set it back further than I would a hunt seat saddle. The owner was going to get a chiropractor out to check her out but the one she called isn't doing horses anymore. So, her vet is going to check out her back again. We haven't been able to find anything wrong yet. She does get that swelling in her jowl and sometimes it swells really badly but we haven't heard of what to do to help that. I generally won't ride her when it is really swollen. I know that has nothing to do with her back but it may have something to do with her head. I can't be sure if she is sore because she acts op or if she is acting up because she is sore. Thanks
Sheryl |
Christine C. Mills
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2000 - 4:31 pm: | |
What happens if you lunge her with a rider astride?
Has the vet checked her hocks at all? Sometimes hock issues show up as back pain.
If you put her on low dose bute for a period of time (several weeks), does she change? This might indicate if the problem is physical pain, some where.
How would you rate her rider's skills? What is she being fed? Supplements? Her age? Has she ever had a foal? What is her turnout like? How often is she worked? What part of the world is she in? Where and what time of day is she worked (arena, covered, day time, etc.) Has she always been troublesome?
Sorry to ask so many questions. You've got a feature length "who dunnit" going, :O) |
Sheryl L Wilkins
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2000 - 10:39 pm: | |
The owner is terrified to be lunged while she is riding, apparently she got bucked off years ago on her when she was much younger but she refuses to try again, the mare lunges like a dream now. She was flexed(hocks, etc...) in the fall I think and they found nothing. She pulled something in her groin early this year and was off for 2 months. She was on stall rest and we tranquilized her for the first ride but she was really good. She has been on bute before too with no real change in her ride. She has also been on a relax with Valerian root with no success. The rider gets a little tense but I am a very secure rider and even if I sit or try 2 point and stay quiet, she still is impossible. She almost seems better with less turnout, from our experience during her lay-up. When we started her back to work she was not turned out right away and she was quite good, considering... She gets a little worse when turned out in a group in a large area and can also get where she is very difficult to catch. The owner likes her to have "friends" but I discourage any friends that are in the same paddock, I prefer them over the fence for her. She is 10 years old and this woman bought her just backed at 3 or 4 I think. She is boarded in Orange County, NY. She has never been bred. I would never consider breeding a horse like her. Her sire was Bold Destiny. She gets worked all different times, indoors and out. She has been difficult since day one. The owner is more stubborn than she is because I don't know anyone that would keep going with such a difficult animal. The horse and rider have seen the most improvement in the last year, but it is still not enough. I hope this answers most of your questions. The owner has been through most of the trainers in this area and I would hate to see her go through everything from the beginning again, only to end up in the same place. You could do walt trot, even with lateral work and when you get to canter transitions, her mind just goes on break I guess. I am not going to proofread this since I am too tired, I look forward to more questions and/or comments.
Sheryl |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 6, 2000 - 5:58 am: | |
We have had one member that has had success with prolixin then weaning the horse off of it. Please let us know the dosage (amount, concentration, and frequency) you used and what the results are.
DrO |
Eveo
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 6, 2000 - 11:16 am: | |
Has the owner considered having this mare spayed? I've seen a couple of real turnarounds in behavior following this procedure--although it is a drastic step. Are there no other horse chiros in your area? Can the owner not overcome her aversion to be lunged? Can you put anyone on this horse on a longe line? Maybe if you found a good rider who was willing, you could bore the mare into taking her canter transistions in stride. |
Christine C. Mills
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 6, 2000 - 12:52 pm: | |
Gosh, what a mess. This horse is lucky she hasn't been passed around. Most people aren't that committed.
Other physical issues that might be worth discussing with the vet include the possiblity of uterine infection, supression of her heat cycle (regumate or implant in neck) and a full check of her mouth/teeth.
You might consider reducing the protein in her diet. To test if this might help, you can try supplementing her with B1 (fairly cheap at tack stores and equine supply houses). If too much protein is contributing, then I am told it will show some improvement within a few days. Should this happen, then I'd reduce the grain or switch to a very low protein grain and use a lower protein hay. I'd then finish the supplement, too. I don't thing there is any real science supporting this, but I've heard it helps from a number of different anecdoetal sources.
I tend to believe that a horse's basic nature is to remain at rest if there are not outside influences. I.e. they are basically lazy unless there is good reason to move. Add pain, fear, food, etc. and they may have a reason to move. (What bit is in her mouth? Sometimes lowering it a hole or changing to a milder bit can help them stop running through an irritation in their mouth.)
For some reason, this horse is basically okay at walk and trot: the trot to canter with any rider is the real issue? And, when asked to transition, she "gets neurotic, hopping up and down" - can you elaborate - is this bolting, bucking, crowhops, rearing, not going forward ...
I'm surprised the owner is willing to canter her in an arena but not ride her on the lunge - the lunge environment is safer and with a bucking strap one can hang on. It is especially helpful if it is in the confines of a good sized round pen as this creates a "mental barrier" for the horse.
So, based on what you've told us, I'd 1) have her evaluated by a vet for any physical issue, including full evaluation of teeth, back, hocks, mare related problems, etc., 2) (maybe first) try the B1 as it is cheap and safe and easy, and 3) have a saddler out to check the saddle.
Then, for riding, I would always lunge her in side reins at walk - trot - canter in both directions within the confines of a lunge ring. When suitably settled, I'd add a competent rider whose only job is to stay aboard and have a following seat. I would do this repeatedly until it becomes boring to the mare. At the first sign of tension, I'd back up a little as I would want to push her envelope without putting her over the top. I'd have frequent stretch/rest breaks. I'd try to make the sessions interesting - even feeding a treat now and then when she is very good. Certainly reward with praise and petting. I would try never to make much of a misbehavior - just ride through it as if it didn't happen.
Since she is herd bound, I'd keep her turnout to an individual paddock.
Over time, I'd add large ring work off the lunge. I would never ask for canter unless the other work was quiet and relaxed. If the horse wants to go fast, I would bore her with going slow. Finally, for canter work, I might ask a walk to canter on a 20 m circle, a few strides, come back and praise before it goes to hell. I would do lots and lots of transitions from all gaits to all gaits so as to teach the half-halts. I would first do up and down transitions in the same place, so as to allow the horse to expect it. Since it is a mare, I would try to use the lightest of aids, but keep a contact in the rein and a leg on the side for reassurance/support.
I would also use TTEAM body work and ground exercises. For the ground exercises, I would especially work her in the labyrinth and go back to it every time she was overly excited. I would do TTEAM body work before riding (belly lifts, tail pulls, neck stretch, connected circles front to back, stretch front legs after saddling and pelvic tilt).
I would try, my hardest, to show her what she can do and not what she can't. That may be no cantering for quite some time. And, I'd have a very regular routine for a while that allowed her a transition from loafing time to work time - groom, lunge, ride building to harder work, etc.
I'm sure you know most of this, but maybe my writing it will trigger a thought. And, by the way, I'd keep training diary and calendar on her. It is possible you might notice a propensity to misbehave at certain times in her cycle or while doing certain exercises, etc.
If you are working with a ground person/trainer of your own that you trust, you might have them out for a second opinion. Trying to cure complex problems over the net is really self limiting.
Good luck. You sound like you really care what happens to the pair of them and that is good. Not every instructor is as caring. |
Cindy
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 7, 2000 - 9:36 am: | |
I have read all of the above: QUESTION?
Does this horse ever get out of training? If her whole life is spent going around in circles in arenas with people who seem to be afraid of her, I would seriously doubt she will ever improve. Nervous horses require riders with absolutely no pre-conceptions as to what will happen when they are mounted. They need riders who can get them through anything without any qualms whatsoever and ACCEPT THE FAILURES WITHOUT A FUSS. Nervousness will never go away, it must be accepted and managed. It is entirely possible that she is simply the wrong horse for the activity required and that she would excel given a task that does not bore her to death with predictablity or carry such high requirements for correctness.(riders tend to get caught up in results and performance and transmit their stress to the horse). As for the transitions to canter, I would simply forget the formal training for awhile and just ride through what ever crap she decided to pull (don't stop and start over) and carry on with a canter when she gets around to one. No right or wrong, no picture perfect rides, no proper leg signals, no nothing. Take away all expectations of performance by horse and rider relax and work on building a new relationship and trust. A lot of this is pretty much what Christine was saying but without all the training stuff. If the rider is being subjected to constant appraisal by an ever present trainer, the problem could be that the correctness of technical riding skills is considered more important then the actual natural ability to ride and relate to a horse and what it is actually thinking and feeling. A nervous horse does not belong in this picture. |
Sheryl L Wilkins
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 7, 2000 - 10:08 pm: | |
Actually, the rider rides only on the weekend and If I can I help her during one 1/2 hr lesson once per week. I primarily train hunters but the owner is interested in dressage. I use basic dressage on all my hunters. She goes on trail rides whenever the ground isn't too muddy or frozen. I don't care exactly how correct she is but this is beyond nervous. She is neurotic. I free longed this horse over fences the other day and roder her over a small fence and she was ok but she still won't trot once you have cantered without a lot of persistence. As a trainer, I only ride her once a week but I can only ask so much because of her fitness level. I agree that she should do something else but the owner is bound and determined to find a solution to her dilemma. It took me 1 and 1/2 year to get the owner to stop being a passenger and ride her horse. She was so tentative and insecure that she would nearly fall off at the slightest spook but she is sitting much better now and can handle the erratic ride that is offered her at this time. It is so hard to describe what the situation is like but I am doing the best I can.
Someone wanted to know what bit she was in, it is a straight flexible rubber bit. She will ride in a halter and lead but you can't show dressage in a hackamore so this was the next best bit we could find that she liked.
Thanks, does this affect your opinion?
Sheryl |
Sheryl L Wilkins
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 7, 2000 - 10:11 pm: | |
PS, we did walk trot most of last year and as soon as we sarted back to canter, the problem came back. I was able to ride through it most of the time but she seems to be getting worse. In addition to the swelling in her jowl, she has big veins, like the veins under a lactating cow but not as big on her neck, could this indicate a circultation problem?
Sheryl |
Christine C. Mills
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 8, 2000 - 12:03 pm: | |
Sheryl,
You last comments lead me to believe that the horse isn't getting ridden frequently enough and with a consistent enough method.
I would also dump the rubber straight bit in a moment and switch to something like a French link snaffle. It is too easy for the horse to lean on/pull through the straight bit, plus the rubber doesn't encourage salivation. Horses are clever, too. This one seems to have the rider's number and realizes she can run through the trot request.
Can your client put the horse in full training (5x's a week) with you for a month or two? Then, the transition back to her as a rider can come with very regular hour long lessons.
I think without the commitment to very consistent training every day for some time, your client is doomed to be disappointed with her relationship with this horse.
Cheers. |
Sheryl L Wilkins
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2000 - 3:34 pm: | |
I have tried a french link-she hates it. She doesn't lean or pull-she just is mentally a mess. I really wanted input from anyone who has tried prolixin or if anyone had used any other drugs with any success on a difficult horse. The owner absolutely can't afford to have the horse in full training and I frankly don't think that without a pharmaceutical aid that even everyday work would improve her ride-ability. She doesn't run through the trot, she just stops and hops up and down in a go nowhere canter rather than trot forward. I am almost thinking that the owner is addicted to the challenge or just is too stubborn to give up and sell her. I will follow up when the prolixin comes this week. The vet checked her out this past week and gave her a clean physical bill of health and watched the owner ride and thought that a anti-phsycotic drug may actually work on her. I will let everyone know.
Thanks
Sheryl |
Cindy
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 15, 2000 - 1:18 pm: | |
Pay attention to Christine Mills June 8 comments. All of them are good. However, this advice is only as good as the person in charge of implimenting it.(I don't mean this in an insulting way) The solution to this horse is a different rider. Weekend riders help to create these problems and blame the horse and trainer. This rider will never gain the confidence or the skills needed to ride this horse. This horse requires a high level of rider empathy and relies heavily on the rider to get her through life while the rider seems to need to rely on the horse to do the same and both are failing miserably. This horse simply hasn't got the built in personality needed for this rider. You have made some pretty fair progress with the rider but if you think of the time scale involved, it may be working against the success of this horse, and eventually against the success of the rider as a rider. I also think that your feeling concerning the rider may be correct. I don't think its just the challenge though. It might be more of an easy cover-up for his/her fear of horses in general. I think you might have the feeling as well that this pair is a definite mis-match. There really isn't an easy answer for this rider although I hope he/she appreciates your considerable efforts to find one.
My daughter's mare is very much like this one. She is a great horse, but randomly developes fire crackers under her tail where there were none before. My daughter went from 0 riding skill to very experienced at reading this horses moods and doing damage control just before the fire works. All while constantly falling off (her first lessons were how to fall off safely) and learning to laugh in the face of adversity. She had to ride the horse or lose her. She learned to ride and now we have what amounts to a two person horse. This horse won't allow any one but myself and my daughter to handle her.(she was severely beaten, twitched and hobbled prior to this) She went from being a runaway to no bit pressure at all. She rides on weight signals. Even when the excitement suddenly gets out of control, she will come back down on gentle voice control.(meanwhile hang on) Use the reins and she will rear over backwards. When she is very nervous we must allow her to keep moving forward at a baby trot or she goes straight up (10 feet and she calms down). When you learn these things, you can manage the horse but you may not get the kind of ride you were originally hoping for when you chose your horse. The BUT to this horse is that she absolutely must get out of the barn every day without fail or her anxiety goes through the roof. She kicks the stall walls until they are cement rubble and her shoes fall off. She also needs a constant bit of something to nibble on and very regular worming. I have found over time that this keeps her much calmer than if she has to wait for meal times and listen to the other horse fussing about. Any ways this was just meant as an example for keeping a fruity horse ( it requires fruity people). I wouldn't be willing to give her up and neither would my daughter, but she also doesn't have a line-up of people waiting to buy her and some of the comments are not always flattering. |
Sheryl L Wilkins
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 16, 2000 - 8:43 am: | |
I really know that this is a bad situation. I wish that she would let me sell her to someone with the time and ability to get her ridden everyday but the owner will NOT hear of it. My hands are tied. If I quit on her, she will just keep plugging along and probably take months for someone new to even get as far along with her as we have now since she gets really jumpy with new people. She does go out but just not ridden everyday. She got her first dose of prolixin this week and I look forward to seeing if she is any different to handle. I really try new things that sound like they will help with her but feel that consistancy has gotten us really far. This owner wants to do dressage. She really wants to be able to do a training level test but with this horse at this time that is impossible. Maybe this drug will help break through the mental blocks. I train primarily hunters and jumpers for the show ring but feel that the basics are the basics. We don't need piaffe or passage, just a canter and trot transitions. I really appreciate all the insights and I may be able to do more things if she gets easier to ride-If she was easier, the owner might let me get another rider to ride her inbetween her and myself. I can't see that right now but if this works, cross your fingers. I can't force my client to put the horse in more training than she can afford. I also can't afford to ride her for free. I will be going out there Sunday so I will give everyone a progress report at that time. Thanks,
Sheryl |
Cindy
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 17, 2000 - 7:45 am: | |
Hi Sheryl,
I can see that you are really in a catch 22 situation. And no, you really should not ride for free. You would'nt have time to make a living if people got that idea in their heads. I like your attitude though. Its a good one. Although drugs are less than ideal and not really necessary, I can see your point about getting the horse so that someone else would condider riding her. Another rider in the mix could really help everyone out. Appearances are everything and this horse now has a reputation.
Another possible option:
If this works out, consider getting this horse out for hill training once a week preferably with her owner. Her lack of condition is ideal at this time. This is where I like to work on the trot/canter transitions and other problems with difficult horses.(use walk/canter for awhile if it is what the horse demands since it will eliminate a rider/horse battle until the rider gains confidence with the new methods) It will be a far more successful operation if the horse gets some of the galloping she seems to be craving. At first it will stimulate the mare to ignore the trot even more and try to take off, but the solution is to keep her moving until she is tired (you are on a hill; this is easy); a tired horse is more willing to conserve energy and will be more inclined to listen to the riders request for a trot and not be in such a big rush to run if SHE THINKS there is going to be ALOT more of it. I would also only ask for the canter at the base of a moderate hill. I like short (it should be long enough to require some effort to make the top) and reasonably steep with soft footing and not too many rocks. (perfection may not be available). The horses lunging habits at this time will than be a normal body action needed to negotiate the hill rather than the acting up it becomes on the flat. This will make it psychologically easier on the rider when the horse goes into her rocking horse routine and it is also easier to ride through any spooks ect..if the horse gets too excited at the prospect of running. (also makes it hard to run away) The horse should be pushed (don't worry about easy canters or style; that comes later) until she just reaches the point at the top of the hill where it starts to round out before levelling off. This is where it takes the max. effort to continue galloping and an out of condition horse will be happy to accept the command to transition back down out of the canter even if she is a runner at heart. Walk the horse in smallish circles until the pulse is back down to 64b/min and then back up the hill you go. The circles keep the the horse in an automatic position of control so that any excitement she is feeling can be easily controled by the rider without too much thought. I do not reccomend any straight back pulling on the reins when dealing with a neurotic horse. That will almost always set them up for a lot of high headed prancing and that blows the rider confidence factor. If the horse must be corrected on a straight line, have the rider shorten her rein and pull downwards below the horses head (not back) using a gentle pumping/checking action and NOT steady pressure. Do not let the rider stop checking until the horse responds. NEVER GIVE UP Remember that we are not practicing our riding form for the ring. To start, 3 times up the hill is enough until you know what the horse can handle. This is a safe easy way to learn to canter a problem horse and the rider will also benefit from the sense of control the hill will give her. This will also help condition the horse for jumping and dressage without stressing her legs. Avoid canter transitions in the arena until the horse has had some sensible take offs on the hill during a few sessions. Re-introduce the arena canter the day after a hill session and stop as soon as you have one single even remote success in the Arena or 2 absolute failures. If you have a success try again in 10 min. If you have a failure thats it for the day. After two weeks back in the arena, you should be building up a respectable number of successes. Do not stop the hill training and when trail riding for fun, remember that the horse will have some funny ideas about running up steep hills for a while. Be prepared and check the reins downwards when approaching the hill before she thinks of running up it and you will find her behaving quite decently for who she is. |
Sharon M Roboski
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 17, 2000 - 8:44 am: | |
Sheryl (&Dr O),
I think I can get away with posting this here - is prolixin the same as reserpine? My drug book doesn't say. If it is then my situation was alluded to by Dr O in an earlier comment in this forum. I was searching for some of the things we discussed about Stoni & his tx with reserpine, but it's been so long since I updated that I guess it's gone.We can't prove that the drug was the cause of Stoni's improvement, but he is continuing to do wonderfully - and he hasn't had an injection since February.Believe it or not, we took him to a Walking Horse Show last weekend & he was a perfect gentleman - got a second in his class! Still not a sleepy old plug - he will always be wired, but so much better. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2000 - 10:01 am: | |
Sharon,
Prolixin is the Manufacturer's name for the generic drug, fluphenazine.
DrO |
Natalie K Prentice
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2000 - 11:55 am: | |
Sharon,
Just a word of warning about Prolixin. Talk to your vet and make sure that you are fully aware of the potential side effects of this drug before administering it. My gelding was treated twice with fluphenazine by his previous owner. The first time, he appeared to become calmer and his previous owner treated him like a calmer horse so the horse became calmer still. Win/win! Not so the second time. With the second dose the horse had a MAJOR reaction that included dehydration, refusal to eat, and a headache so severe that he literally put his forehead on the ground and dragged his face through the sand while attempting to batter himself with his front hooves. He had to be hospitalized and sedated for over 48 hours until he 'detoxed.' Terrifying to watch and incredibly hard on the horse. Obviously this was an extreme and rare reaction but watch your horse very closely if you use this drug and be alert. Please! |
Sheryl L Wilkins
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 14, 2000 - 9:25 am: | |
Hi- I'm back with an update on the mentally unbalanced mare. She has gotten 2 doses and she has shown some improvement but it is not outstanding. She will trot after canter but she still hops around some it just seems that she gives up faster. I have started jumping some crossrails and the owner is open to letting her try a new disipline. She would never be a hunter but she could do some little jumpers. She seems to like it, it gets her attention but some of the head tossing and erratic behavior still exists but at least not right in front of the jumps. Is Reserpine similar to Prolixin? A different vet heard that the oral doses of Reserpine can be easier to regulate day to day and easier to reduce the dose to nothing. Now she gets a shot every couple of weeks but we will increase the time between shots and then stop all together. Thanks for all the input. I will find out the dosage this weekend, the vet never told me but he is leaving the bottle so I can give you all the info then. Thanks!
Sheryl |
Nancy Brown (Nanb)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 1:23 am: | |
I thought my husband and I were the ONLY one's out there who owned a mentally unstable horse! We purchased "Loona" 8mths. ago at a Standardbred Yearling Sale. We purchased her because we previously owned a world champion mare out of this family, as well, my husband drove others including Loona's grand-dam.
Therefore, our knowledge to Loona's unsavory disposition, stubbornness and mean streak was no surprise, as it was a predominant (filly) trait throughout the maternal side.
The 'craziness' I speak of in not displayed in her training routine - out on the track, but within the confines of the barn (stall/cross-ties). What was first noticeable was her energy. So much so, we would turn her out for @ an hour prior to her schedule of either jogging (4-5 mls) or training. After she cooled out, "unlike the others" we'd have to turn her out again, as her energy never seemed to deplete.
She's always wound-up, jumping, banging the divider wall and has banged her head so many times on the beam above her gate (for no apparent reason)we put a helmet on her, which later required placing a nylon mesh so she couldn't hang her head out. We've hung toys from the ceiling, on the ground, supplemented Vit B powder in her feed and even resorted to a magnetic halter band.
The same Vet who tended numerous others in her family has preformed all examinations, blood work x-rays etc., and recommended (unlike the others) she go on 2cc Modecate (schizophrenia) once monthly. Her first was administered in Feb and second in March. There wasn't any noticeable change.
We thought we'd seen it all until Spring arrived and Loona came into heat. With 30+ years training/breaking horses, we've never seen another like her. While in heat you might as well kick her out and forget about her because her prior attitude of being good on the track is a wasted effort.
Since the start of Spring she's been in heat 4 times, presently - 2 wks apart. Rather than resorting to regimate we tried a natural product from Emerald Valley called Hormonise - so far, no change. If anything .. worse, very nasty, charging at people in the ties, from her stall and pisses everywhere!! Her terrible performance while training indicates she won't be racing if she's horsing.
Her regular vet works from the track, we train at a farm @ 1 1/2 hrs away, which means he doesn't tend to her on a regular basis. Question(s):
Her hormone levels have never been checked, would you reccommend this? how far apart should coming into heat be? how long should cycle last? would you suggest starting her on regimate? As a 3yo, her "aunt" (lack of a better word) was on it, but she also earned $1.2 million. what knowledge do you have about Modecate? is this worsened lunacy more indicative of the Modecate wearing off, hormonal,and/or possible problems with ovaries/cysts etc.
This filly has shown alot of potential and ability 'on the track' but presently there's no point in further training her down in the state she's in. I look forward to your reply. |
Tammy Taylor (Taylor)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2001 - 12:28 pm: | |
Have you considered having her ovaries removed? It is a cheaper option than regimate. Does she have to be intact in order to compete? The reason I'm suggesting this, is if she is impossible to deal with, and she sounds dangerous, and it is worse during her cycles, why not? You also mentioned that it appears to run in the family. I'd find that as an undesirable trait and would not consider breeding her, no matter how much money she may bring in. Is it worth injury to herself or possibly the people who handle her? And why continue to breed horses when you know that there is a very good possiblility of her passing on her "lunacy" trait? This is just my opinion. I don't show or race horses, I only have them for my own personal enjoyment, so I don't know how important it would be to have your mare intact (with the exception of resale value for those who breed). But if it is just to breed and sell some foals later on, if they have this trait, a lot of them will probably be sent to a feed lot and/or abused in the wrong hands. I just wanted to let you know my feelings on this and I hope I didn't step on too many toes with my opinion. |
Nancy Brown (Nanb)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 7:32 am: | |
Thanks for the feedback Tammy
Yesterday at the farm at another trainers request a vet came out. We asked if he'd do an internal exam on the filly. He found her left ovary twice the size of her right, which in his opinion would given her alot of discomfort and contributed to her overabundant nastiness. He gave her meds. to
dissolve the follicle and has reccommended next week we start her on 10cc Regimate/daily! This vet said the Regimate will aid in calming her cycles, but added he can't do anything for her personality.
Prior to her internal, I had placed a call to Emerald Valley re: Hormonize, and waiting to hear
a response. The intent when purchasing Hormonize was to hopefully avoid the need for Regimate, however, if that's what's required, that's what we'll do.
As for Modecate; has anyone heard of it/tried
it? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 6:49 pm: | |
Hello Nancy,
While this does not rule out there might be a problem, this time of year it would not be unusual at all to find one ovary much larger than the other. Mares usually ovulate on one side each cycle so that side will during estrus will have a follicle and during diestrus have a CL either could make a ovary be 2 or 3 times the size of the other.
DrO |
Nancy Brown (Nanb)
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2001 - 3:33 pm: | |
Hello Dr O:
In an effort to "rule out" other possibilities, eg)GCT,I forwarded a blood sample to a local vet, requesting hormone testing be done (per article: Granulosa Cell Tumors in Mares)for; testosterone, progesterone and inhibin. NO ONE IN THE VET CLINIC HAD HEARD OF INHIBIN TESTING!!
The laboratory,(Vita-Tech Canada)faxed 3pgs of related articles from the National Library of Medicine on inhibin as it relates to GCT in the mare. The labs response; "I can find nothing about using inhibin as a diagnostic test, and it appears to be of research interest primarily. The mainstays of diagnosis remain palpation and ultrasound in a mare with appropriate clinical signs (anestus, male behavior etc.) An elevated serum testosterone may also be helpful in detecting the presence of (or suggesting the presence of) a GCT." The lab then included a couple of abstracts that may be relevant, and the name of a Vet in the Theriogenology Dep't at OVC that may have addition information.
Four days ago the vet gave this filly a PGF2a injection,and reassured us that we'd see a big improvement within 24-48 hrs. However, her behaviour; banging her left side off the partition wall and her overabundant nastiness has not improved. She trained this morning. When a horse, (especially 2yo) trains a mile in 2:25, the norm is, they're tired. However, she was so miserable, (ears pinned, mouth open and lunging at people)I turned her out in the paddock for the duration of the day. She displays stallion like behavior "way more" than her stablemate .. a 2yo colt! This same vet reccommends we start her on Regumate in 2 more days, and insisted having her hormone levels tested wasn't neccessary. She hasn't had an utrasound.
I assume the concluded diagnosis is;
1) the PGF2a injection was to regress the CL, returning the mare to estrus.
2) the Regumate is to help this mares irregular cycles and convert them to more normal cycles and promote ovulation.
My question(s)If this mare were to have GCT, will the Regumate be beneficial/harmful? The vet said "long-term", what's the longest time-frame keeping a mare on Regumate? With no lab tests available for inhibin, would testosterone and ultrasound be adequate tests to diagnose IF this mare has a GCT?
Thank you, Nancy |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2001 - 10:26 am: | |
Here is a reference for your lab and possible contacts and location for getting inhibin levels run:
Inhibin concentrations in mares with granulosa-theca cell tumors.
Am J Vet Res 1999 Nov;60(11):1407-10
Christman SA, Bailey MT, Wheaton JE, Troedsson MH, Ababneh MM, Santschi EM.
Department of Animal Science, University of Minnesota, St Paul 55108, USA.
OBJECTIVE: To determine whether concentrations of dimeric inhibin (CaCA) are greater in plasma and tumor fluid from mares with granulosa-theca cell tumors (GTCT), compared with concentrations in plasma and equine follicular fluid (eFF) from control mares. ANIMALS: 6 mares with GTCT and 12 clinically normal mares.
CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Dimeric inhibin concentration was higher in plasma from mares with GTCT than in plasma from control mares. Increased granulosa cell mass and loss of mechanisms regulating alphabetaA release in mares with GTCT likely accounted for the increase in plasma concentrations. Measurement of alpha and betaA inhibin concentrations may be useful for identifying mares with GTCT.
You lab is correct in that this is not a standardly available test and may require some searching to find it. The benefit of this test is that despite physical, rectal, and ultrasound exam, and running testosterone and progesterone levels, you may still not confirm a diagnosis of GCT despite it being present. Current research suggests this test may be the best single test we have but I think I would try the more standard tests first.
If you find your self still needing the Inhibin test after doing the above you could check with the University who did the research above or I try BET labs in Ky USA. So far I have not had a case that required running Inhibin so I do not know how difficult to find it might be. I have edited the article to make this clearer.
I don't think the Regumate will be harmful but cannot predict the affect.
DrO |
Nancy Brown (Nanb)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 21, 2001 - 6:40 pm: | |
Thanks for the info Dr. O. I forwarded it to the
local vet, who has not responded back.
In the interim, we re-radiographed her knees (March)to determine any change; open/closed. Since the xrays indicate no change (wide open), we decided to turn her out and bring her back in the fall in hopes of racing her as a 3yo.
We had started her on the Regimate but have discontinued administering it while she's turned out. For a turn-out, the expense of @$4/day Cdn. just isn't feasible. In the meantime we'll continue to observe and monitor her cycle/
behaviour.
Nancy Brown |
Nancy Brown (Nanb)
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 3, 2001 - 8:36 pm: | |
Hi Dr. O:
The last set of xrays showed the filly's (Pro Bona Fide)knees closed, so she came back in from her summer turn-out last week. Pro was turned out daily 6-8 hrs. and brought in the barn at night.
We took her off the regumate (previous posting) while she was turned out and started her back on it @ 2wks ago. She remained her miserable self throughout the summer months; always in heat, and many times banging her side on the partition stall wall.
Her behavior has considerably improved since we started her on regumate, however, unlike her, she's only picked at her feed. This morning one would think she was sedated, she was so quiet, while being shod. When she went back in her stall, she did something that NO ONE has seen her do before .. she layed down!!
She didn't appear collicy, normal temperature, but she was noticeably not herself and was in discomfort so we gave her a shot of banamine and observed her. Shortly after, she was back eating, and being her ol' self.
My question; Since I've always suspected her being a likely candidate for GCT, I wondered if she's experiencing ovary colic from the regumate?
Does her being on regumate(10ml/day)aid if she has GCT or could it mask it? Wouldn't bloodwork testing for her hormonal levels require being first taken off regumate? One vet from the track suggested we have her manually checked prior to ultrasounding her. Thank you
Nancy B |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2001 - 7:42 am: | |
The Regumate is not a likely cause of colic of any cause. The question about Regumate and masking GCT is not studied. However there are several possible mechanisms that suggest that some GCT's psycological effects could be ameliorated by the use of progesterone. I think it would be best to be off the Regumate for 21 days before blood testing but again this is not a well studied question and considering the variablity of these tumors may differ from case to case. For other information on diagnosis of this condition see, Training Horses: Behavioral Problems: Granulosa Cell Tumors in Mares.
DrO |
eyerre
New Member
Username: Fabrice
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 9, 2005 - 1:21 pm: | |
HI I'M FRENCH I'IM WRITIG FROM NORMANDY (150 KM FROM PARIS NO)NOBODY IS ABLE TO HELP ME MY MARE IS CRAZY AND AGRESSIVE WE ARE NOT ABLE TO LOOK HER STRAIGHT IN THE EYES IT DRIVES HER MAD SHE BEHAVE LIKE A STALLION SHE IS ALWAYS IN PERIODS I GAVE TO HER REGUMATE BUT SHE STILL CRAZY .WHITHOUT ANY REASON SHE IS ATTACKING EVERY DAY I HEARD FLUPHENAZINE MAY RESOLVE HER PROBLEM HER WEIGHT IS ABOUT 500KG CAN YOU HELP ME TO USE HER GIVE ME THE DOSAGE FOR FLUPHENAZINE THANKS A LOT |
WTG
Member
Username: Angel77
Post Number: 48
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 9, 2005 - 9:42 pm: | |
Bonjour Eyeere,
Comment t'aller vous? Fluphenazine worked like a charm for my 11yr old gelding while he was recovering from surgery. The vet told me Fluphenazine was for schizophrenia in humans. In horses it calms them down a lot.
Dr.O would know the exact amount to administer.
Good Luck,
WTG |
Corinne Meadows
Member
Username: Corinne
Post Number: 29
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 9, 2005 - 11:03 pm: | |
Hello Eyerre. I just joined the site two weeks ago. You will love how everyone makes you feel welcome and the amount of horse knowledge gained from being a member is amazing. I hope you find a solution for your aggressive mare!
Take care,
Corinne |
eyerre
New Member
Username: Fabrice
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 10, 2005 - 1:35 am: | |
I IT'S ME AGAIN FABRICE .I WANT TO KNOW IF DR O COULD TELL ME THE AMOUNT TO ADMINISTER FOR MY MARE PLEASE ANSWER ME BY THANKS FOR ALL |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13877
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 10, 2005 - 8:31 am: | |
First I would consider the possibility that this mare has a granulosa cell tumor see the article Equine Diseases » Reproductive Diseases » Trouble Settling Mares & Stallion Infertility »
Granulosa Cell Tumors in Mares.
If you rule this out and want to try fluphenazine see Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Sedatives & Anesthetics » Fluphenazine (Prolixin) for dosages and adverse reactions.
DrO
PS, 2 suggestions eyerre: You should not write in ALL CAPITAL letters. It is a bit harder to read and sort of equivalent to yelling. Proper caps and punctuation makes your posts easier to read and you get quicker and more responses. Second you should start your own discussions rather than posting at the bottom of other discussions. You will find the start new discussion button at the bottom of the list of discussions underneath each article. Again this will get you quicker and better responses. |
eyerre
New Member
Username: Fabrice
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 10, 2005 - 11:24 am: | |
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