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Discussion on Proud Cut

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Patti Ellis (Hadacall)
Posted on Thursday, Mar 28, 2002 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. O,

I've been around horses most of my life and I have never actually asked this question - What is meant by "proud cut"? I have been around numerous geldings that exhibit stallion behavior around mares in cycle. Some will drop (flacid) mount and get down. I've always "assumed" proud cut refers to stallion-like behavior by geldings. But, yesterday I saw a gelding who is labled "proud cut" mount a mare and actually penetrate. He was cut a number of years ago after being used for breeding just a few mares. I've never seen him do this before, but found out that about a month ago he was given a shot of testosterone for medical reasons. I assume that the testosterone has boosted his libido, so to speak. I was surprised the first time someone told me he was proud cut because he's always been so docile - so "gelding" in nature - until this incident. Sorry for the long post, but a good definition of proud cut would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Patti Ellis
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Patti Ellis (Hadacall)
Posted on Thursday, Mar 28, 2002 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. O

Never mind! I forgot to do the search before posting and I found the answer. I apologize.

Patti
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
Posted on Thursday, Mar 28, 2002 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Excellent Patti.
DrO
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Laura Dwyer
Member
Username: Longhorn

Post Number: 60
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Okay. I DID do the search and can't find the article. Where is the proud cut article, Dr. O?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro

Post Number: 17457
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 7:02 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

It is an article on castration Laura that discusses "proud cut" horses. See Horse Care » Equine Management & Routine Procedures » Castration in Horses. Right now the combination of articles and discussions has made configuring a search engine that does both well difficult. However in the next week or two we will be going through a large upgrade where this problem will disappear.
DrO
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Laura Dwyer
Member
Username: Longhorn

Post Number: 61
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Much grass, Doc!
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Larry Allen
Member
Username: drlarry

Post Number: 22
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I just (today!) had my four-year-old gelded, and the vet showed me the testicle and all its attachments, to "prove" that he isn't "proud cut." She said, "that's the epididymis, the part that causes the 'bad behavior.'" I said, "I thought testosterone was produced in the testicle." She said, "I'll have to check on that." Well I beat her to it! Testosterone is indeed produced in the testicle, and the epididymis is where the sperm develop. BUT - - this doesn't answer the question!! If the epididymis doesn't produce testosterone, what is it that causes that residual "bad behavior?"
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 23341
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well Larry,
You are correct on one point, the cells in the testicles produce the testosterone and the epididymis does not. However you are mostly wrong about the epididymis being where the sperm develop. They are produced and develop within the testicle and then ducted to the epididymis and stored until ejaculation. However you are not completely wrong there is a bit of maturation that is completed when mixed with secretions from the other accessory sex glands during ejaculation.

I presume when you say bad behavior you mean stallion behavior. This is caused by the androgenic effects of hormones of which the primary one is the sex hormone testosterone. Other hormones produced in the adrenal glands have much milder androgenic effects. But you should know many stallions behave very well, I know I have owned several of them that could be mixed with geldings and out of heat mares and mind well in all situations in hand or under saddle.

For more on all this see Horse Care » Routine Horse Care » Castration in Horses.
DrO
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Larry Allen
Member
Username: drlarry

Post Number: 23
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well Dr. O, you *nearly* answered my question... The sperm develop motility - the ability to go forward - in the epididymis, and other stuff happens there too, but I don't find any reason that the "bad behavior" (her words) has any source from there. What is it about leaving the epididymis behind - by accident or by design - that causes persistent stallion behavior?
My horse's daddy is a fine gentleman, and I've known many other kind, gentle, friendly stallions, too. I decided I wanted a companion more than I wanted a breeding operation. So far, I'm glad I made that decision. I'll keep you posted as to Khody's progress.
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 23348
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The article I refer you to above explains this Larry, but in short: it does not.
DrO
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Larry Allen
Member
Username: drlarry

Post Number: 24
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Sunday, Jul 5, 2009 - 1:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Dr. O,

The more I thought about it, the more I decided it must fall under "wives' tales." I think that's what you're thinking, too. Interesting, huh? She was careful to show me that she, "got it all." Which I'm glad of, I guess, because it makes sense for that part to be gone too.

My colt - er, uh - my *gelding* is already showing signs of change, and that's fascinating. His twenty-minute-a-day round pen work is the most exercise he's ever had, and I've advised him that his training has begun. He's just glad to have a job.

Best,

LP
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JANIS DOHERTY
New Member
Username: trinity

Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 6:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I just sold a 11 y/o TW that actually crawled under a gate in his pen to get to a mare in heat.
The lady who boards my horse and another boarder
dealt with him they said his eyes looked like he
was possessed. He tried attacking another horse that got in his way. They were able to catch him and put him in a more stable pen. He is a very gentle horse this was his only problem. What can you do with horses in this situation and when you go to buy a gelding how can you tell if they are proud cut?
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro

Post Number: 23995
Registered: 1-1997
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Welcome Janis,
Yes there are ways to tell and it is covered at Horse Care » Routine Horse Care » Castration in Horses. You should note that the male horse behavior you describe is not necessarily do to being proud cut but this is described in the article also.
DrO
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