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Discussion on Could this be related to pregnancy ? | |
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New Member: box091 |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2007 - 12:00 pm: Hello,I am new here so I do not know if I am posting this question in the right spot. I have had my mare for 7 months. During this time she has been on a regular worming schedule, and has been seen and treated by our local vet several times. She has some other stuff going on besides what I am asking about.. but these 2 things have stumped both my vet and myself. I have taken my mare 2 times in the last 10 days for a lump on her belly. It has been there since September, but is growing and is now the size of a banana. Before this she has been seen and treated for swelling above her eyes. The lump on her belly is hard to the touch, but the swelling above her eyes feel like soft water balloons. The eye swelling was there when we got her..the swelling is located in that "dip in" above her eyes. 2 days ago my vet was going to try something else for the stomach lump, but he told me of the dangers it could do to a fetus. My husband and I have wondered on and off if she could have been in foal when we got her.. my gut told me to go ahead and have her checked, and she is in foal! He said she is about 7 months along, so this means she had just came into foal right before we got her. My vet wants to palpate her again in 2-4 weeks to recheck. The news of a baby is wonderful, but now I am even more worried. This will however teach me in the future to go with my gut... She is my first horse, and I am new to all of this. Having your own is much much different than helping your friends out .. but I would not trade her for anything.. she is wonderful! I have researched and researched, and so has my vet. I would just like to now if these things could be from her hormone changes now that we know she is in foal? Or, is there something else causing them? Sorry, I tried to make this as short as possible, and still make sense. I am going to try to attach pictures so y'all can see what I am talking about. I am with my mare all the time. I feel like I am tuned into her, and I just want her to be a healthy horse that will be with us for years to come, and now her baby too. She has gotten very moody in the last few weeks.. and now I know why Thanks in advance for any and all help on this. Lynn |
New Member: box091 |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2007 - 12:39 pm: |
New Member: box091 |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2007 - 12:42 pm: |
Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2007 - 1:23 pm: Hi Lynn,Welcome! It's hard to tell from these photos, but the belly "growth" looks like it *might* maybe just be edema in the mammary veins caused by pressure from the foal in the uterus. Hard to say. I don't find a mention of this (common) event on the site, but here is a link to an article in TB Times https://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/1995/December/02/Edema-in-pregnant -mares.aspx That being said, if she is only 7 months along, I would be inclined to rule out HyDrOps (if you search this term in the search box, you'll find a thread where Dr. O posted an article). It's very rare, but it would be horseman's luck that your first one might have it! Here is an online description: https://www.dvmnews.com/dvm/Equine+Feature+Articles/HyDrOps-rare-but-know-signs/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/13320 Good luck! |
Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2007 - 2:00 pm: Hi Lynn I have seen that belly edema quite frequently in preg mares. Is it possible she is further along than 7 mos.? Could you get in touch with the former owners and ask when and how long she was exposed? I have seen vets be wrong with palpatation. Is she getting a bag yet? No guesses on the eye swelling.Good luck with your mare and your expected new arrival. |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2007 - 4:43 pm: Welcome to the site Lynn. And you sure figured out how to post photos faster than many of us did!What breed is your mare and what is her condition--slim, medium, fat, obese? Those soft areas above her eyes (where most horses have a "hollow") are often a trait of horses that have what's now being called equine metabolic synDrOme. It is actually a description of horses that are very easy keepers, tending to get overweight on not much feed, sensitive to carbs and sugars, perhaps an increased risk of laminitis and "fat deposits" in areas like the neck, whithers and tail head. It is easily managed with diet and exercise, so don't panic, but if she is over weight and perhaps has a "cresty" neck and maybe fat deposits around her tail head, this may well be what you're seeing. In geldings, the sheath also can get puffy looking with fat deposits. I would imagine pregnancy could require some careful management with this condition, but don't know. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 - 6:48 am: As noted above these two swellings are different:1) The one above the eyes is retrobulbar fat and associated with certain endocrine conditions like EMS and Cushings (see Endocrine Diseases for more). 2) The other is ventral edema. There can be many causes for the ventral edema and is normally seen in the last month of pregnancy. Your post and veterinarians assessment suggest this is abnormal. For more on evaluating edema and possible causes see, Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses. After reading this you should be able to tell us a lot more about the nature of the swelling. Besides a more careful description of the belly swelling I do have three questions: 1) How old is this mare supposed to be Lynn? 2) How did the vet estimate the age? 3) Other than these two findings was your mare normal of physical exam and blood chemistry evaluation? DrO |
New Member: box091 |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 - 12:56 pm: Hello,Thank you all for getting back to me on this. I am sorry not to have posted back right away. Yesterday, I had to get some dental work done.. ugh. Yes, it is quite possible that she is further than 7 months. When our vet did the exam he said she was very full of poop, and that made the exam more difficult.She was exposed most of the time at her previous home. After doing a lot of research for other things back in the summer, I had her tested for cushings. Simple bloodwork was done, and it came back with normal levels but he said the cortisol was a little high, he said its nothing to be alarmed with though. When I asked to have her tested for cushings I think I through him a curve ball. He was very honest with me though and said he has never dealt with that, but that it normally appears in older horses. There were many reasons I had her tested...the swelling above her eyes, even though I could not find any pictures to see if it was in the same spot, I know some of the things I read said there could be swelling, but normally in one side.. I could not find an explanation for both sides but I thought it could not hurt to have the test done. When she first arrived, all the way through the summer, and to the time she got her full winter coat.. which came in way before all the other horses in the area, she had long spots or patches of hair. Like under where the front legs meet the chest, along her chest up to her neck. Dont get me wrong.. when I stumbled onto cushings information.. she looked NOTHING like the horses in most of the pictures I pulled up..but everything I would search for lead me to cushings. Also the lack of weight and muscle up around her withers and spine. That was blamed on her previous environment. At her old home she was at the bottom of the food bucket chain so to speak without out making that a long story... several sites said that cushings horses will have dull cloudy eyes, and she has that. She was treated twice for infection when she first got here, and nothing changed. So the vet said it is probably moon blindness. There would be days that we would ride, and she would do nothing but trip and stumble, other days.. she did none of that.. I kept telling my husband, it seems like some days she is just off. I pay close attention to her and how she acts.. and take her through different areas and the same areas just to see how she would respond. When we first got her, and through the summer months, I have endured the classic "your a first time horse owner and dont know what your talking about, or just being paranoid" from different people.. Thats ok.. lol I love a challenge. Even though the blood test came back "within a normal range" other than the cortisol I had no explanation for the things that were/are going on with her. I mean.. when you sit down several times a week and search things and it keeps leading you back to cushings.. I couldnt help but wonder if maybe it just was not showing up on tests yet. So, I took it upon myself to put her on chasteberry herb which I kept running into as a treatment for cushings. I cant say she has cushings because she was not diagnosed formally so to speak.. however, since putting her on that 3 months ago her coat at this point is beautiful. I have tried not getting to excited because I feel like that once spring comes, and she starts shedding, we will really be able to tell then. But, the cloudiness in her eyes is almost gone in the left one. The right eye is not as bad, but still cloudy. The swelling above her eyes is half the size that it was.. but as you can see in the pictures it is still there. She had not stumbled or tripped at all in several weeks until a couple weeks ago, and she just seemed way off balance. I know it sounds weird, but she was just riding way different. With that edema growing in size on her belly, and her sense of balance being off I have not ridden her since. Now, finding out shes already carrying 2 I am glad I backed off. But since putting her on the chasteberry, you can literally see the muscle growing and it is headed up towards her withers and spine. Sorry that was so long, when I read what y'all wrote, I got excited because maybe I was on the right track to begin with? So I wanted to fill yall in on a little more of her history. ( I am trying not to write a book lol) Anyway..let me answer y'alls questions.. She has not gotten a bag, but there has been a slight change in appearance in that area in the last couple weeks, but no bag. Our vet checked her teeth when we first got her and estimated her age around 12, but we discovered she already had a chip a couple months after that and he was right on the money. Her date of birth is 1995. I am going to take some pictures and read up on what y'all sent me, so that I can answer y'alls questions better. Thank all of your so much for helping me with this. |
New Member: box091 |
Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 - 1:52 am: Hello again,How in the world did I miss those sections of the site when I was searching? Y'all have helped so much, I just wanted to DrOp back in and say thank you for the support, and the links. I feel like I have so much help now. I will keep you posted on her condition, and the update from the vet next month. Here are pictures from today, just to use as visual reference. Thanks again |
Member: box091 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 7, 2008 - 11:48 pm: Hello again,Well it has been a couple of weeks since my last post. I am ready to pull my hair out We went back to the vet last week, and he is still unsure as to exactly how far along she is. At first he said 8 months, but when I mentioned that her bag was filling up, he said she could be a lot further along than what he was feeling. He said the foal has moved up a great deal and was much easier to get to though. He ran something by me that made me come home and research at this site. He mentioned that it could be possible with the swelling of the eyes,that she could have Equine Viral Arteritis. He said that normally that is followed by swelling of the legs, and loss of the foal most of the time. But, the time to both test her, and treat her has passed us by. He said she would have contracted this by the stud who bred her. He wants to see her in 6 weeks to make sure the foal is still alive, and if not he wants to make sure she does not mummify the dead foal, as happens in rare cases. Now I have researched this, but I do believe that at this point that my brain is on information overload. As lame as this may sound, I need some help, and I know the people at this site are far more knowledgeable than I am in these areas. If you will, please look at the picture I have uploaded in my profile. This was my mare in August of 2007. The pictures I will post at the end of this message were taken on Jan 6th (this past weekend). Here is a list of things we have encountered since we came to own her back in May of last year. The swelling above the eyes... I give her chasteberry powder 2x a day. watery discharge of the eyes...she was treated in the spring and through the summer with antibiotics and sulfa. this treatment also covered the cloudiness in her left eye. The meds did not help, but since putting her on the Chasteberry her eyes have not hardly watered at all, and the cloudiness although still there, is not as bad. Nasal discharge. There has been no treatment for this. Her nose runs just a little, but it has done this every day since we have owned her. Popping of the joints. Not severe, but it still happens. And as mentioned before.. her edema. I know I have read from the links this is common in pregnant mares... I guess I would just feel better if I saw a picture lol.. hers is growing on a daily basis now. It is very predominant on both sides ...the pictures do not do it justice. Her bags are filling, but they are far from full, I am searching for a way to explain.. in front of her tits is very soft, and warm, and is filling with fluid..but the bag itself does not seem to be filling. Is this normal? I mean there is fluid in the bag...there just seems to be more in the front. Now to top off all of this, I go out this evening to treat her for what is or might be a slight case of rain scald, and one of her back fetlocks was slightly swollen. I rush to the vets office before he closes, and got some bute, and my husband swung by the feed store for thrush treatment. I am being faced with so many things "she might have" and then facing the problems I see she does have that I am not quite sure what to do. My vet said he has researched and looking at her leaves him stumped. I guess I just need some help with the process of elimination! So many of her symptoms could be so many different things. I would like at least like the peace of mind of knowing that I am doing everything I can for her. Please Dr O.. tell me if I am in the right direction, and if not please advise as to which way to go. Thanks in advance. |
Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2008 - 12:29 am: Hi Lynn,I can't answer your questions, and will wait with interest for Dr. O's response. But I do want to share this with you-- caring for pregnant mares is nerve wracking even when the breeding was planned, the mare appears healthy, and everyone involved has tons of experience. You are doing your absolute best for this horse under less-than-ideal circumstances. She appears quite content to eat your grass and wait for whatever comes. We can only do our best for our horses, and much more of that is waiting, feeding and scooping than we would like! You are a great horse mom, and IF this is in your power THEN it will be fine. If it isn't, well, a lot of the time it's fine anyhow. Horse repro. is 75% prayer in the best of situations. And for what it's worth, I like her overall condition better in these shots than before. Pat yourself on the back. This mare is lucky to have you. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2008 - 7:06 am: Hello Lynn,If a careful physical exam and laboratory work up do not show any problems and the pregnancy possibly in the last month I would assume the swelling is from the pregnancy. Usually it would not be this prolonged but the degree of swelling is not out of the norm. If your horses DOB is accurate in your profile, Cushings would not be likely. I personally have little confidence in chasteberry for the treatment of Cushings which is not and the change in eyes watering most likely incidental. If your veterinarian feels there is some ongoing problem with the eyes that remains undiagnosed perhaps a referral to a ophthalmologist might help. Many horses joints pop a little and the nose often has a small amount of clear discharge. If the "only" problems are those you describe they are all pretty normal the key to confirming this is a careful exam and lab work up. After that take a break, have a glass of wine, and let your hair grow back out, as the chance of there being something more seriously wrong than being pregnant is small. DrO |
Member: box091 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2008 - 1:46 pm: Hi Elizabeth & Doctor O,Thank you for your responses. You just do not know what your words have done for me! I know y'all are probably shaking your heads and giggling.. but hearing that you can tell a difference through pictures makes me feel really good. When we got her.. I never thought in a million years that the bond would be as it is. My husband is not a "worrier", but when these things started concerning him, that only made me snowball with worry lol. I guess that is to be expected since we are first time horse owners, and have not experienced any of these things. But it seems just as we think we know what we are doing we will have people come up and say.."oh man.. what is wrong with her, that is not normal".. But on the flip side to that.. my husband says I need to chill out and listen to y'all and our dear friends at the feed store(who are experienced horse owners) and just block everyone else out. Doctor O.. the only blood work that has ever been done is the panel I requested for cushings. No other blood work has been done. Do you recommend something I could request, or should we just give it a little time to see what happens? Does it sound to you that EVA is possible? I know after reading your information about it that is a heck of a question.. And yes, her date of birth is 1995. At least that is what is on the paperwork that we got with her. Her previous home was not ideal, and with that in mind, is why a lot of the worrying is displayed on my part. Worming was done MAYBE once a year, shots ..well no one really knows. The only time an animal would get treatment for anything is once it got severe ,and as stated in a previous post.. she was at the bottom of the food chain. To explain the food in a little more detail.. she was given 8% livestock 3 days a WEEK on average. Each horse out there, when they would get fed, would be given 1 coffee can..but all of it went into the same trough which was an old sink.(a small size for 20 horses fighting over the rations) So that would leave more for whoever ate the fastest. Ugh. It was recommended at the time we got her to put her on 10 % livestock, which I did not do... I put her on 10% equine. I did see improvement, and of course did more research on feed. We changed feed stores, and went with Nutrena safe choice...slowly..very slowly. We saw lots of improvement in a short time. In that same time period though is when I started her on the Chasteberry. Could it just be the feed that had helped her so much? I mean at that time, she had gone from eating 2-3 times a week (unless you count the weed filled pasture she was in) to eating every day. At first she would not even eat all her food, and if anything made a sudden move she would rum from her bucket. Now, she knows feed time lol.. if I am a few minutes late getting out there she hollers. Nothing gets her away from her bucket now. Now, after finding out she's in foal.. shes on the Mare and foal, and instead of 2x a day.. she gets fed 3x a day. Her backbone is still visible, but as big as her belly has gotten, I guessed this was normal. But, is it possible I have given too much credit to the chasteberry? Do you think I should take her off the chasteberry until she foals? I am just sitting here thinking that everything I had researched from the time we got her until now.. was not based on the possibility of her being pregnant, until last month when we found out she was. As I said before, our poor vet is just as stumped as can be. He is concerned with her eyes, but the closest Equine ophthalmologist is all the way down in Baton Rouge. The owners of the feed store recommended their vet, who deals only in livestock. I have not made the switch because I did not want any feelings getting hurt, but.. everyone does have their own specialty. I had gotten peace of mind before in the other posts, but when that edema took a growth spurt lol.. I just was worried if we were still in the normal range. Although nerve wracking,I am glad it is. She is doing good today. The edema, for whatever reason has gone down.. not a lot, but it is down. She now has veins that are showing from the girth to the mammary gland though. lol.. She is still eating, drinking and pooping well. And, the slight swelling in her back leg has gone down some. She does not like the bute at all.. but shes gonna get it anyway! We went ahead and treated both back hoofs with the betadine and kopertox instead of just the one today because we noticed a foul oder coming out of the other one. Should we do this once or twice a day? Well it is funny, just responding to y'all has a calming effect. More like relief. I will keep y'all posted if ya can put up with me. I am hoping and praying that she is not 8 months, and that she is in her last month, and all these things will disappear soon. lol.. until then I do think I will start drinking... 1 bottle of wine please! thanks again |
Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2008 - 4:00 pm: Heck Lynn,Proper nutrition and reduced stress will make anyone feel and look better! The chasteberry is expensive, isn't it? And she's remarkably young for Cushings, even if chasteberry were the standard of care for it. If it were me, I'd be saving my pennies for all the scary things that foal is going to do to you, once you survive this experience! Biggest trick I've found with thrush is to keep those feet clean and dry if you can. Otherwise all the expensive poison gunk in the world doesn't seem to help. Are you prepared for foaling if it's soon? Got some clean straw, somewhere dry to put her up, chlorhexadine for stump-dipping, a foal enema kit (mine always need this) and a foal-safe turnout? A digital camera to show us all photos and a cookie for the momma? And save some of that wine for you and your husband.... |
Member: box091 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2008 - 6:48 pm: Hi Elizabeth,I paid a little less than $20.00 for a one pound bag of powder, and with the amount I give her has lasted almost 5 months. I was fixing to reorder, but I think I have pretty much talked myself out of it lol. I have read about the other treatments for that, but without her being formally diagnosed I just tried the chasteberry on one of those "it might bes". She only had simple bloodwork done for that,not the Dex-suppression test. Lol.. Keeping them clean is a lot easier than dry for today anyway. One more chance of rain this week, and hopefully she will get on out of this. We only have her, so separating will not be an issue. The other horse we had gotten from the same place she came from is gone now. He was a mess. We acquired him in August, and we had to give him away in November. He was a yearling...a mess...had worms (tons of them), he had a hernia..he coliced, almost died..the list is endless. He had the hernia surgery, was gelded the same day.. and after all that we had to give him away. But, to answer your question about if I am ready for the foal.. yes and no lol. Because of him I have a whole new respect, even when they are not fully grown. My husband wanted to get rid of him right after the surgery, but I held on almost 2 more months, and finally said I just cannot do this. I felt like I had failed, but I could not let the kids into the pen with him here, Baby Girl never got a bit of rest because he was always ticking her off and fighting, and he turned into a biter. I worked and worked with him, watching Clinton Anderson, and reading.. I carried bruises and finally one day he scared me bad enough for me to call my husband and telling him.. I have failed at this, but this horse is going to kill me.. he has to go. I did not realize until that moment that a horses mouth was that strong. I am 175 pounds and he got me up off the ground by latching onto me with his teeth, causing me of course to loose my balance and took off back towards me like a wild horse in a rodeo. At the time I looked at it as I had failed, then that changed to some horses do not do good with some people, and I was just not meant to be with that horse.. then we got news that the man who we gave him to, who is around 6'6 and trains roping and cutting horses was having worse problems than us. So.. I now have it in my mind that we did good by him, got him in a better way of health than what he was when arriving here, and that he is just obviously crazy lol. I had even entertained the idea that since we have such a small place maybe he needed to have more room.. but the 50 ares hes on at his new home proved me wrong there as well. So.. I have everything except the enema and I just have high hopes the little one will have its mamas sweet personality. I know I have read on here where people have had several bad experiences with horses, but you just keep moving forward learning as you go The thing I want first is for her and baby to be healthy though. We do have a neighbor who has 2 horses that came from that place she came from, and from what we understand, it was our mare who foaled their 9 y/o gelding. And, he has a personality to die for. He stands at 16.2 hands, and is just as sweet and gentle as can be. I do not have the experience or the guts for that matter to deal with another young one like what we had lol. All in all though.. yes really, removing the fear the yearling caused me, my husband says I am acting like a grandma. I have the camcorder ready, camera ready, and everything in the foaling kit except the enema. I have printed out what to do for the foal and left it out there because when I get nervous my mind goes blank.. Our friend at the feed store laughs at me and says calm down it will happen with or without you...but his wife takes my side lol. The camcorder is for my husband...he is a truck driver, and even though he loves to give me a hard time about this, says I better get it on tape because he just knows he wont be here when she foals. Men. Lol. And as far as the wine.. lol.. we will just have to buy another bottle |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2008 - 6:59 am: In general Lynn the lab work should be defined by the physical exam but when I am stumped I run a CBD and a pretty standard Chem 16 panel. These tests along with some others are listed at References » Equine Vital Signs and Laboratory Values. I personally have little confidence in chasteberry for the treatment of Cushings nor do I know of any work or use during pregnancy but if this is prescribed by your vet you should make the decision with him/her.DrO |
Member: box091 |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2008 - 11:36 am: ok, thank you Doctor O,I am headed to check out that article right now. I have taken her off the chasteberry as of last night. I did not give her the evening dose. I can always get her rechecked if the symptoms do not subside after she foals. Then we can check into different meds. Sometimes I have to remind myself.. I have only had her going on 8 months now, and it takes a while to go downhill, just as it takes time to get back up . I would like the bloodwork that you mentioned done on her now though since so many things seem to be a guessing game. I feel it could possibly eliminate certain things that are just making me worry. Or make me worry more.. but we are thinking of the glass half full Thank you so much.. I will keep you posted. |