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Sue G
Member
Username: Warwick
Post Number: 135
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |   |
Being a solid color sporthorse breeder, I need help answering a question I was asked the other day to which I have no idea of the answer.
The question is: What is the chance of having a colored foal if a grey mare is bred to a Tobiano stallion?
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Sue |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 597
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 3:30 pm: | |
Within the Arab breed gray is often a dominant color so you would probably get gray. I think you need to know more than just the color of the two horses involved, unless one is homozygous. What colors are in the pedigree? What breeds are you talking about? |
Sue G
Member
Username: Warwick
Post Number: 137
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 3:49 pm: | |
Sara, I am not totally familiar with either the mare or the stallion but do know the mare was by a grey stallion and out of a chestnut mare. The tobiano stallion they want to breed her to is homozygous.
Does that help? |
Sue G
Member
Username: Warwick
Post Number: 138
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 3:50 pm: | |
Oops, forgot to add the mare is TB and the stallion is a Paint. |
Liliana Velasco Ariza
Member
Username: Liliana
Post Number: 246
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 4:47 pm: | |
Wow I have to brush up on my Chinese!, no seriously what is homozygous and tobiano, sorry to be so ignorant.
But, what I do know  is that gray is considered a solid colour, and it is very common to get gray out of a chestnut or the other way round. Black, Brown, Chestnut and Gray are solid colours as far as I've read/heard.
Regards
Liliana |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 599
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 7:10 pm: | |
If the tobiano stallion is homozygous, then the foal should be tobiano, if I remember all my genetics right. I'm assuming he is homozygous tobiano and not something else! But, what color is he? I wonder if the foal could be a gray tobiano? Or, whatever color the stallion is? Tobiano is dark with white spots, right? This is where you loose me, not a lot of paint breeding if you have purebred Arabains!
Liliana...this stuff gets so confusing, don't feel bad. My knowledge is really limited, too. Homozygous means the stallion will produce whatever he is regardless of mare's genetics, as both of the stallion's color genes code for one color. (Boy, if I'm wrong here, step up and correct me someone!) If a horse is heterozygus it has two different color genes which can be passed on and combined with those of the mare, so out of a gray horse, or even two grays, you can get a chestnut, for instance. So, it is possible for a gray or even two grays to have another color foal, but it isn't possible for another color to produce gray as gray is dominant and must be present in at least one parent to produce a gray foal. |
Liliana Velasco Ariza
Member
Username: Liliana
Post Number: 248
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 7:33 pm: | |
Thanks a lot Sara,
Sooo, Tobiano aplies to appaloosas? I sort of remember, blanket, gosh I don't remember. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 604
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2005 - 8:03 pm: | |
Oooops! NO. To Paints and Pintos. Sorry. I was talking BIG spots! You're on your own with appaloosas; I assume you have to have two of them to get their coat patterns, but don't really have a clue as to what is dominant. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12699
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2005 - 7:59 am: | |
Every characteristic we have is controlled by 2 genes, the one we got from our mother and the one we got from our father. If these 2 genes code for the same characteristic, say brown eyes, you are said to be homozygous for that characterisitic, if they code for different characterisitics you are said to be heterozygous for that trait.
Both grey and tobiano are dominant genes so are expressed whether hetero or homozygous. The grey gene will wash out the color if both are present in the same horse. Since we do not know the complete color genetic make up of these two horses we cannot know the chance of a particular color showing up and when the various combinations are looked at the chances range from 0 to 50% the horse will have color. Interestingly grey horses born with a tobiano gene often have color as foals that they loose as they mature and grey out.
DrO |
Sue G
Member
Username: Warwick
Post Number: 140
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2005 - 11:39 am: | |
Thanks so much for the info, Dr O and Sara. You have cleared up much of my confusion/ignorance and I'll pass along your comments to the friend who asked me the question.
She is hooked on having a coloured horse and although I have been encouraging her to breed this mare (a lovely big boned TB) to either another TB or a warmblood, then sell the offspring and buy something coloured that is already on the ground, she isn't buying my suggestion! |
Alicia Kost
Member
Username: Aannk
Post Number: 415
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2005 - 1:06 pm: | |
Just to clarify, there is a 50 50 chance this horse will grey out. I didn't see Dr. O. specifically say that. The gray parent had one non grey parent, so it only has one dominant grey. Therefore, there is a 50% chance it will pass its one grey modifier on, and a 50% chance it won't. The rate of greying I am not sure about, nor the end result (flea bitten or stark white), but if the horse has a dominant grey gene, it WILL turn grey at some point.
I researched this as my mare is grey and I bred her to a bay. I REALLY want a bay, but I know I have only a 50-50 chance.
Alicia |
Sue G
Member
Username: Warwick
Post Number: 141
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2005 - 1:36 pm: | |
Many thanks for your response, Alicia. I will pass it along to my friend.
Let us know what colour your foal turns out to be!
Sue |
Alicia Kost
Member
Username: Aannk
Post Number: 416
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2005 - 1:58 pm: | |
You're welcome. I will post to the world when little Miller (or Harper or Murphy) or Ivy (or Iris or Poppy), show name Poetic, Dutch registered name either Ahearn - Celtic for "lord of the horses" or Aoife (pronounced WEE fa) - Beautiful, radiant or Aine (pronounced AW nya or AWN yeh) - Celtic for delight; pleasure, joy, radiance; splendour; brilliance is born. I hope she is a filly, light bay, with hight whites and white on her face. Hope springs eternal She is due the 23rd of May.
Alicia |
Sue G
Member
Username: Warwick
Post Number: 143
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2005 - 2:34 pm: | |
Good idea to keep the show name simple and easy to pronounce. My 2 geldings are named Warwick (pronounced Warrick) and Alnwick (pronounced Annick) and I can't help cringing every time I hear their names mispronounced. But it's my fault entirely for picking names that hardly anyone on this side of the pond can figure out... |
Alicia Kost
Member
Username: Aannk
Post Number: 417
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2005 - 2:58 pm: | |
I think naming for show depends upon your discipline a lot. Hunter folks like me usually pick either a name, or some silly phrase, or something that describes what we wished our horse was like. My show horses have been Jazzmin (these days I wouldn't have choosen that, but that was my first horse), Strike a Pose (because of how nicely she jumped), Somerset (his color, he was a chestnut), and my current two Poetic Justice (my gelding, name chosen because my trainer said he would never amount to anything because his mom was 1/2 arab), and Poetic Inspiration. I don't plan on having too many more horses in my lifetime, but the poetic works well for a sport where rhythm and consistancy is your best attribute.
Dressage folks seem to pick more sophisticated names, and western more showy. Jumpers seem similar to hunters but a little more classy.
Alicia |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 606
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 29, 2005 - 9:48 am: | |
Try entering the show ring with Arabian horses with Arabic names! Much of the time you're not even sure the announcer is talking about your horses. |
Patricia Bell
Member
Username: Boomer
Post Number: 174
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 6:04 pm: | |
Hey Alicia, what did you end up with? A grey or a bay??? |
Alicia Kost
Member
Username: Aannk
Post Number: 665
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 12:08 pm: | |
PAtricia,
She actually lost it due to a dystocia. I tried her again this year, and she doesn't appear to be able to carry to term anymore due to the damage she suffered on her cervix from them pulling the foal out of her. So, we are going to try again this spring and use embryo transfer as she appears to be able to hold it at least a month and you only need two weeks.
Thanks for asking, and I still am hoping for a bay!
Alicia |
Patricia Bell
Member
Username: Boomer
Post Number: 175
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 12:22 pm: | |
Well, I am wishing you the best of luck! I hope you keep us posted. |
Alicia Kost
Member
Username: Aannk
Post Number: 666
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 1:06 pm: | |
Yes, I will let you know
Alicia |
