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Lisa O'Brien
Member
Username: Lisao
Post Number: 48
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 8:04 am: |   |
I have a 3 yo mare who has been inseminated 3 times this season, but still no pregnancy. We are using cooled semen with excellent motility (and successful pregnancies from this stallion with other mares). Are there any common problems with settling young, maiden mares that I should look into? Otherwise, this mare had a bad fall and head injury as a weanling - is there a way to look at pituitary function? She has regular cycles. She is a bit of a hard keeper and I would put her body condition score at 2.5. We have been trying to put more weight on her, but the going is slow. Is this too thin to support early pregnancy? Any ideas would be helpful, thanks! |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 695
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 11:41 am: | |
Just my personal opinion, if she were my mare I would take a year to get her into better condition, then try and breed her. |
Sue G
Member
Username: Warwick
Post Number: 151
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 12:09 pm: | |
Ditto to what Sara said. Mares in good flesh are generally easier to settle. Of course that's not the only obstacle but it is an important consideration. |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 871
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 5:27 pm: | |
Lisa, I do not know what the conception rates are relative to age and condition, but I have yet to see a 3yo in poor condition settle. And unfortunately, I do see many such mares being bred each year.
I saw pictures of your other horses and they're in excellent condition. I am afraid that a horse in such a poor condition under the same management is a sick horse, not a hard keeper. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13088
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 6:24 pm: | |
I agree with the above a 2.5 (on the 9 point scale) is very thin to be trying to settle, the mare's system is doing all it can to put on flesh and pregnancy kind of secondary.
If her cycles are regular, pituitary dysfunction from a fall seem unlikely. For more on why mares don't settle see Equine Diseases » Reproductive Diseases » Trouble Settling Mares & Stallion Infertility » Mare Infertility Diagnosis: cycles but does not settle.
DrO |
Lisa O'Brien
Member
Username: Lisao
Post Number: 49
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 7:02 am: | |
All right guys, perhaps I underestimated her condition. You all are making her sound emaciated and she's not at all. If you look at my website: www.seguinsporthorses.com she is shown there as a yearling (Saage). She is in the same condition now or even a bit fatter. I just don't have an updated pic posted. The scale I was using described 2 as racing fit condition and she definitely has more fat than that. Our regular very experienced repro vet had no problem with her condition and she is a very healthy mare. She is on good pasture and has nice, balanced groceries in a pellet that is very similar to Strategy. In a perfect world I would wait until she is four, but... |
Lisa O'Brien
Member
Username: Lisao
Post Number: 50
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 7:22 am: | |
I forgot to add that I use a scale of 1-5 (not 9!) which puts her between 'fair' and 'good' for what it's worth. Sorry for the unclear communication on my part - I need to define my parameters...before I get the ASPCA called on me :-) |
Bonnie
New Member
Username: Cutting
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 7:35 am: | |
Here is a site that might get us all on the same page. It is the Henneke table and format for Body Condition Scoring System. I have a hard copy of this that has pictures but can't find it on the web right now. This one is very good even without photos. http://www.lser.org/Henneke.htm
Bonnie |
Lisa O'Brien
Member
Username: Lisao
Post Number: 51
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 4:16 pm: | |
By the Henneke scale she is a 4-5 overall - some parts vary a little. So, do you still think she is too thin to settle? I didn't originally and neither did my equine vet or my husband (also a vet). Believe me, both of them would have said I was crazy and stupid to try breed a mare that is 2.5 on a scale of 9! I am certainly neither of those and would never contemplate breeding a mare that thin or an unhealthy mare - my website shows my horses in their normal condition. I was just trying to sort out some possibilities or get some new management ideas, when everything else (semen quality, timing, etc.) seemed to be right and both vets are just saying that these things happen sometimes (or don't as the case may be). I like different opinions. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13095
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2005 - 11:52 pm: | |
Silly girl, no need to go elsewhere we have the Henneke scale here at, Care for Horses » Particular Situations & Procedures » Weight, Condition, and Eventual Height Estimation. Lisa this scale has become a standard, why not regrade your mare on this scale for us.
DrO |
Lisa O'Brien
Member
Username: Lisao
Post Number: 52
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 10, 2005 - 5:05 am: | |
The Henneke scale shown at Bonnie's suggested site seems to be less abridged and addresses each part of the horse separately (neck, withers, shoulder, back, ribs, tailhead) - when I do that I come up with an average of 4.5. When I look at the abbreviated verbiage on this site, I would evaluate her as a 4. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 699
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 10, 2005 - 11:09 am: | |
Personally, I would still let her grow up a little more and try again next year, although I'm happy to see she's in much better shape than I first thought! I think she'll settle much easier next year. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13105
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 10, 2005 - 11:58 am: | |
Verbiage usually indicates an excess of words, not a abbreviated form. I would use the description "concise" but that is just me.
As a 4, that is not too thin to settle but should be in a weight gaining state. The article I reference above on infertility gives a step by step procedure for evaluating hard to settle mares and then gives some ideas on what to do with undiagnosed infertility problems. We also have an article on difficult keepers which may help you with the condition problem, Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss.
DrO |
Bonnie
New Member
Username: Cutting
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 10, 2005 - 12:45 pm: | |
Dr O,
I know I am a silly girl. That said, I had the site on the Henneke table and had not even looked for your page. My apologies. I actually like your page better, because it is “concise”. I especially enjoyed the following comments you made on mare infertility:
“Occasionally, no exact cause can be found for mare infertility. The lack of a big improvement in live foal rates over the past 100 years suggest that we do not have a handle on the problems we are dealing with.”
It is interesting that more times then not it is management and not the horses...
I am wondering your thoughts on:
1. Possible reasons for the problem of some mares just NOT being able to settle to CERTAIN stallions but then go ahead and do with others and
2. Why our maiden mare would not settle AI but did with natural cover and now settles AI without problems?
Bonnie |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 13110
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 10, 2005 - 6:17 pm: | |
Taking your questions in order:
1) I think most often folks have just been unlucky or the management on a particular farm was poor: a new stallion, a new farm, better management and you have the perception of 2 horses that are a mismatch. Otherwise you can hypothesize genes that when put together become lethal.
2) I see a mare about once a year, with no discovered problem, who would not settle for a particular year, no matter what back flips I performed, only to have them settle with ease the next year. Why... I don't know but the temporal relationship you describe is poor proof that it was the AI alone the first year assuming the management was good.
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 703
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 10, 2005 - 7:45 pm: | |
We have on of those mares that just won't settle. She's had biopsies, cultures, etc. and there is no "reason" to be seen. We've bred her to different stallions both AI and live cover, even had her pastured with a stallion. Forget it. We finally gave up and luckily, she's turning into a great riding horse.
I've also known a stallion that would not bred to a chestnut mare except by AI. He would not even tease a chestnut.
I long ago decided some things are just beyond our knowledge! |
