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Discussion on What is the chance of a buckskin from a bay
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Gill and Jodi Levanger (Levanger)
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2001 - 10:24 pm: |   |
please help my husband and I settle a small disagreement (if there such a thing as a small one LOL)
We have a beautiful dark bay quarter horse, who is presently bred to a paint. But my husband wants to breed her to a buckskin stallion next year in hopes of getting a buckskin colt. The stallion we found is a spendy boy, but my husband is so sure that he would get a buckskin colt from him that he wants to go with it. I on the other hand have my doubts, and here is why. In the past she has had 4 foals, 3 blacks and one sorrel. I am just not as sure as he is that the buckskin would happen. Does anyone have any help in our dilema? Basicly what are the chances if any?
thanks |
Julie Markich (Julieann)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2001 - 12:27 am: | |
You can get a buckskin from a bay since a buckskin is basicly a bay dilute, but you can never be sure ie i put my buckskin to a buckskin and got a chestnut! there must have been a palomino somewhere in the line who was related to chestnuts.
I am sure you will get some odds etc from other people on this site as there are a few who are quite the geneticists (sp?)
Julie |
Heidi Wealleans (Pones)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2001 - 3:31 am: | |
OK, before I confuse you totally with coat colour genetics, know this one thing: To be absolutely sure of getting a once diluted (that is what a buckskin is) bay from a solid bay horse, you need to breed it to a twice diluted horse ie a cremello or a perlino.
For the basic coat colour, you have to look at the E's:
Your mare is Ee with Aa, which means her basic colour is brown with black points - BAY:
Ee, Aa, CC, dd, gg, ww, toto - Bay or Brown
She has had foals which are sorrel and black:
Ee, aa, CC, dd, gg, ww, toto - because the foals have Ee and aa they are Black; the black that would be on a bay is Aa - only extends to mane, tail and points. Because the A gene is two small a's the black extends over the whole body.
ee, aa, CC, dd, gg, ww, toto - because the foal has ee (red base coat colour) it is Sorrel (or chestnut)this overrides any black gene markings.
Ee, Aa, CCcr, dd, gg, ww, toto - if you look at the genes for a Buckskin, you will see that it has the Ee and Aa of a bay horse. But it also has the Ccr of a once diluted horse - like a colour wash if you dilute a bay once, you get a buckskin. So you need a twice dilute stallion to definitely get a once dilute foal out of a non-diluted mare.
If you put a Cremello (ee, CcrCcr) to your mare you would have a 50/50 chance of getting buckskin or palomino.
If you put a Perlino (Ee, CcrCcr) to your mare you would have a 1:3 chance ratio of palomino:buckskin.
If you put this buckskin stallion to your mare then you would have a 50/50 chance of getting a dilute foal (ie buckskin or palomino; exactly what base colour the foal would be would depend on the genetics of the stallion - do you know what base colour foals he has sired before? Especially of interest would be foals out of black mares?).
If you could tell me more of the colour genetics of the stallion - ie what colour foals he has sired in the past - I might be able to give you a more accurate prediction.
Having said all this, beware that nothing is 100% in nature - you may get a genetic blip and get a throwback (although this in unlikely, it is possible).
So the bottom line is 50/50 chance of getting a dilute foal; but it may be buckskin or palomino... |
Gill and Jodi Levanger (Levanger)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2001 - 9:33 am: | |
Heidi,
thank you so much, yes I am a little confused but I think I understand somewhat of what you are telling me. I will try to get the history on the stallion and what he has thrown. Let me ask you another question. Both of you mentioned the palomino has to be there somewhere. Well right close to me is a beautiful palomino stallion, and he is alot cheaper (LOL) are the chances smaller with him if not nill? i apreciate your time is sorting that out for me also Heidi. |
Heidi Wealleans (Pones)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2001 - 10:43 am: | |
OK!
A palomino is similar to a buckskin, in that it is once diluted:
ee, Aa, CCcr, dd, gg, ww, toto, so your chances of getting a diluted horse would be 50/50. Whether that would be palomino or buckskin would also be 50/50.
You might end up with a non-diluted horse - either bay or chestnut.....
So it's a bit of a lottery I'm afraid!
Heidi |
Gill and Jodi Levanger (Levanger)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2001 - 10:52 am: | |
Thanks again,
looks like we take a chance either way. so i guess it is weather we take it with the pricey boy or not. LOL my money is on the "not" LOL But this foal she is carrying now is mine and when we breed her again, it will be his choice. LOL so I am sure it will be with the buckskin. |
GG (Goflip)
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 8, 2001 - 1:05 am: | |
We had a red dun stallion - which has the same dilution gene as a buckskin, just over sorrel instead of bay - and we bred him to lots of different color mares. The dilution gene was VERY strong - like 85 percent. We got buckskins, grullas and red duns galore. So don't be afraid!!! Mathmatically your chances are 50/50, but realistically probably much higher. |
Jordana Meisner (Presario)
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2001 - 8:35 pm: | |
Dun is actually a different dilution gene from buckskin - over sorrel the creme dilution would result in a palomino. Dun over bay and sorrel would produce red duns, or varying other shades of dun. |
Mary Ream (Ebony)
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2001 - 11:06 am: | |
The way I understand the dun color is that it is dominate and will delute any color.? I bred my mare to a red dun paint stud, my mare is a paint sorrel. The man told me that when bred to blacks, they got buckskin babys. Thats when I looked it up, I forget where, been on so many sites, but it said that dun color was dominate and will delute any color thats why you get buckskins out of blacks.
Mary |
Jordana Meisner (Presario)
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2001 - 10:40 pm: | |
Dun is different from buckskin (a single dilute of a bay), but both are dominant, and a horse could have both, with one appearing to hide the other, although both are presented. If the red dun is producing a buckskin out of a black, he must also have a dilute that isn't visible through the dun, and he must also be carrying a bay modifier that is acting on the black that the mare is passing on. |
Karen A. Parks
Member
Username: Kparks
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 4:40 pm: | |
We have just purchased a sorrel mare who is in foal to a black stud. What are the chances of getting a buckskin form this combo? I would guess not very good from the previous posts here, but they deal with bay and buckskin. I know the sorrel mare should have a good chance of throwing other colors, I just do not know about the buckskin angle. Thank you. |
Christine Holmes Bukowski
Member
Username: Canyon28
Post Number: 47
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 5:16 pm: | |
your chances of getting a buckskin from a sorrel to a black are ZERO unless the stallion is a smoky black and not a regular true black horse. A smoky black is a black buckskin, which can only be gotten from breeding to a horse with a cream gene, like a palomino, cremello, buckskin, perlino, or another smoky black. One of the parents would also have to have a black gene expessed to get a smoky black from a dilute. Ihave one from a sorrel mare and a dark buckskin stallion. Go to www.doubledilutes.com and I think they have some pics of smoky blacks. The black stallion in your case would have to have one parent that is a dilute in order for there to be any chance that he is a smoky black and not a true back. It is most likely he is either a true black or a fading black, both are black.
A sorrel mare usually throws what she is bred to, since red is recessive until bred to another red. If you bred your sorrel to a buckskin, you might get a smoky black like I did, or a palomino, or a buckskin, or a bay, a true black, a brown , or a sorrel. Ihave been lucky, I have never gotten a non dilute when I have bred one of my sorrels to a dilute. But it is supposed to be a 50% chance every time that the dilute will pass the dilute gene. Cutter, my senior stallion is a palomino. He has about 170 foals. about 65 of them are palominos, and 15 or so are buckskins or smoky blacks, which makes him a 50% color producer. If someone tries to tell you their palomino or other dilute color stud is more than a 50% color producer then they are lying or else the horse has had so few foals that the law of averages has not caught up yet. If you breed a palomino to a sorrel you will get one or the other half the time. Either a sorrel or a palomino, 50% of the time. A palomino is a dilute sorrel, nothing more, so all they have is a cream gene and a red gene, which they will pass half the time. the sorrel mare has only red, so she passes red, Cutter in this case, can pass either red or cream, so you will get a palomino half the time when bred to sorrel.
the red gene is normally hidden in a black based horse , like a bay, brown or black, Only a test for black (or lots of foals) will show that a horse is either heterozygous or homozygous for black. If the black stud you bred to is homozygous, then he is black/black, and has no red gene, so he will pass black every time and your foal will be a black based horse, but will have a hidden red gene, which will make it heterozygous for black. If he is not homozygous, then he also has a red gene, so you could get a sorrel or chestnut foal, which will only be red/red if that happens, a red horse cannot have a hidden black gene, from what I have learned. Black overrides red, so if it has a black gene, it will have a black base, and be either brown, black, bay , or buckskin ( only from one dilute parent). A buckskin is a bay with a cream gene. Even though you may think of a bay as having a red gene, they may not. It is another gene that causes the body to be a reddish color. It is entirely possible for a bay to be homozygous for black. to make it simple. If a horse has a black mane and tail, black points, then it is a black based horse. Of course if you bred your sorrel mare to a perlino, you could get a 50% chance of getting a buckskin, since a perlino is a double dilute with the black gene. They are not usually homozygous for black , though, but they are homozygous for cream. Every foal will be a dilute. A cremello is also a homozygous creme dilute, but they are red based and so if bred to a sorrel or chestnut, you would get a palomino every time. Now that I have totally confused you, I think your mare will have a black foal with a hidden red gene. Chris www.canyonrimranch.net |
Jordana Meisner
Member
Username: Presario
Post Number: 548
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 9:10 am: | |
Christine pretty much said it, except "A smoky black is a black buckskin" isn't quite accurate. A smokey black is a black horse with a single dilute/creme gene. Most of the time you cannot physically tell it's a smokey black (and as an aside, a black with double dilute is a smokey creme and really cool looking).
Do you know the colors of the parents of the black stallion? That could help determine a little more accurately your chances of various colors. But simply put, you'll get either a black, a bay (if the mare carries the bay modifier) or a chestnut (if the stallion carries a red gene). |
Karen A. Parks
Member
Username: Kparks
Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 12:13 pm: | |
No, I know nothing about the stallion, but am supposed to be getting a copy of his papers. We just bought this mare back and she is in foal to a black QH. The stud is now deceased. She is a homebred from our Morgan farm and was sold as a 2 year old. I hope to have more info soon. Thank you so much for replying to my question. We bred this mare's mom to a buckskin (mare is liver chestnut) and got a strawberry blond palomino filly who is now turning into a dappled palamino something or other, ha. Her mane and tail are getting black hairs and her legs are getting dark. We have no idea what she will end up being. She is coming 2. Thanks again. |
Bridgett Mitchell
Member
Username: Sporty
Post Number: 54
Registered: 5-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 7:45 pm: | |
Hey guys,
I should know the answer to this question, but it has been a while since Genetics. I have a sorrel overo mare that I bred to a sorrel tovero stud this year. The mare was by a black overo stud. Do I have any chance for any color other than sorrel? |
Christine Holmes Bukowski
Member
Username: Canyon28
Post Number: 50
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 9:41 pm: | |
you will get a sorrel, although I dont know that much about how paint genes are passed, the base color will be sorrel only. I hope you have had your mare tested for OLWS and she is negative or that the stud has been tested negative. You could get a lethal white foal from this combination if both horses are carriers. that would be a real heartbreak. |
Jordana Meisner
Member
Username: Presario
Post Number: 549
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 9:41 pm: | |
Bridgett - nope, you WILL get a red (sorrel) foal. Sorrel/chestnut is homozygous for the red gene, so there is nothing to pass on except red. Ok, the bay modifier can be passed on, but since that doesn't affect red hairs, only black, it's a moot point.
Just an aside - have the mare and/or stallion been tested for Lethal White as they are both overo? |
Bridgett Mitchell
Member
Username: Sporty
Post Number: 55
Registered: 5-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 18, 2004 - 9:40 am: | |
NO neither mare or stud have been tested for lethal white. YES, I know the risk. I am hoping and praying that it doesn't come out white. I was willing to take the risk because this was the last time they were breeding this stud and I have a gelding by him that is sensational. I talked to lots of paint people who breed overo to overo a great deal and take the risk. But I know with my luck, this is my first and probably only foal ever and it would happen to me. Wish me luck and pray it's not white! Since the stud is tovero, would that lessen my chances for a lethal white? |
Jordana Meisner
Member
Username: Presario
Post Number: 550
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 18, 2004 - 11:26 am: | |
The chances are not any less with a tovero since that is just both a tobiano and an overo.
I know you do what you have to do, but the $60-ish cost of the test for OLWS would seem to outweigh the risk of losing not only all breeding fees and vet fees, etc, but the life of the foal. It just seems so senseless to take the risk when you could easily know for sure. JMHO |
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