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Discussion on Age and Stress
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| Author |
Message |
    
Denise Conroy
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2000 - 9:05 pm: |   |
Beginning in April my daughter will be training her 5 year old gelding for the hunter/jumper shows this summer. She is working with a trainer who is very knowledgable. I just wondered how can I be sure that too much stress is not put on his legs too fast and what signs will I see if there is.
His first show is Memorial day, jumping up to 2.6.
I want to be sure that her horse is kept sound for many, many years. He is my daughter's all-around horse and she enjoys trail riding as well. Any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks, Denise |
Jordana Meisner
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2000 - 1:25 pm: | |
Hi Denise - how long has your daughter's horse been under saddle? How fit is he now, how much work is he being asked to do? Also, what breed is he? The answers to these questions will make a difference in whether a complete course (or more) of 2'6" is too much for him or just right. For example, if he's only been backed for a year, then 2 months of training over fences isn't really enough, IMHO, for showing at the end of May. On the other hand, if he's been backed since he was 3, and has been working on ground poles, and regulating his striding, and has flatwork down well, then that might not be such a huge step for him. Tell us more about his current level of training and fitness. |
Denise Conroy
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2000 - 2:22 pm: | |
Jordana,
He was trained at three years old. My daughter worked with him alot last summer and showed him in basic english classes. He took all 1st & 2nd place ribbons. He has the perfect hunter stride and works very consistantly. He had never jumped prior to the fall of last year. He has jumped 2.3 successfully, but has never worked a full course of jumps. He needs to learn lead changes, big time. He is not in shape. My daughter has trail ridden him once a week or so, throughout the winter is all. The hunter/jumper classes available in our area are quite basic, starting at 18".
He would be ridden 3 times a week. But I imagine with our time schedule he would be jumping alot during those lessons in order to be ready for showing. We bought polos and boots to aid him.
Our trainer is excellant, but wanted other feedback to just ease my mind some. Does that help? |
Dr. Carol Artlett
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2000 - 5:08 pm: | |
Baby Greens are not out of the question. They are not higher than 2'6". Often they allow trotting in the corners which takes the pressure off the flying changes. They are generally used as a forum for the horses to learn about showing at jumping. I would not expect too much of the horse.
Best of Luck.
Carol |
Elizabeth Jopp
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2000 - 11:37 pm: | |
Dear Denise:
I am in the same situation as you (or your daughter). I just bought a 5 year old TB horse for jumping who is very broke on the flat and just learned the jumps - maybe 2 to 4 months of jump training. According to the previous owner he did do a schooling show last year.
He is off the track but was never raced. He was thoroughly vet checked and has no leg problems or potential leg problems, and was also checked out by a certified horse massage therapist to see if there were any back or muscle issues. After doing all this checking and noting the horse's very sturdy build, I have every confidence that he's OK to show.
HOWEVER, for the first few shows, also starting in May, I only plan to do a few baby green type classes (maybe 2 classes for 1 day) and maybe one flat class and that's it. I don't want to freak him out.
I have also heard that it takes between 3 to 6 months to get a horse really in shape with steady work. So, I agree that at the end of the season he may be really ready to do a bunch of stuff.
But, I am really referring more to my horse and am just trying to relate my situation to you. I can really understand your concerns, because mine are the same! My horse also doesn't do the changes, but I really don't care, I just want to show and have a good time. The schooling shows and baby green classes are great for that stuff!
I think your daughter will have fun helping the horse through all this, I know I am...:)
Good Luck.
Liz |
Denise Conroy
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2000 - 9:08 am: | |
Thanks Dr. Carol and Liz.
My daughter and I both, are taking a very "let's have fun" approach to showing this summer too.
If he has to take it a bit slow to start, that is fine. By the middle of the summer he should be in shape and capable of more. Gotcha ya.
Thanks! |
Denise Conroy (Denise)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2001 - 10:44 pm: | |
Hello All,
I am the one who originally posted the first message under this discussion, back in March. I failed to update you all on our situation and I really believe it has great baring on this issue.
In hind sight, I should have listened to my gut!
I felt like Karen, our horse was being pushed too fast. His first show was on Memorial day and at the show he went lame. We had to bow out of the show. One month off....missed another show.
Feeling pushed again by the trainer, we showed again on July 10. Two days after the show, he went lame once again. My daughter was devastated!
If only we had listened to our gut and were more forceful about what we wanted with our horse. Instead we relied on the trainers advice and expertise. He was laid up for two months. Her whole show season shot to the ground. He is 5 years old. Jumped 15-20 min three times a week. Where I believe the stress came from was the high jumps...and not enough conditioning. No horse that young should be jumping that high...especially if they have not been adequately flatted for months to condition.
We learned a very hard lesson this past summer. The soundness of our horse is more important than winning any ribbons. I also believe strongly that if your trainer won't listen to you or belittles you because of your caution...then find a new trainer.
Finally, get to know your horse, his limitations.
Get to know his legs, and what is normal and what maybe a slight swelling...check him/her after each lesson. When there are any warning signs, lay him off or slow down his schedule.
Amy, thanks for posting that quote from Dr.Deb's book. I have read them too and thought they were excellant!
Dr. O, I am surprised at your answer. I would have expected from a vet, more caution in your advice.
Older horses that have served their owners well, done the job asked of them are later taken to auctions because they are unsound and no longer useful. Mostly because of irresponsible trainers and owners who don't give a hoot about their longevity...only about winning the ribbons.
My previous trainer said that most of the horses at her old Jumping barn were on bute all of the time. That is shameful.
I am sorry to be so vocal, but this touches home.
Denise |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2001 - 8:50 am: | |
No problem Denise that's what these forums are for to discuss our thoughts and experiences. And I want to thank Amy for taking the time to include Dr. Bennet's article. Let's see if we can sort out the feelings from the facts.
I do not see any facts in Dr. Bennett's piece that change my opinion. She is of the opinion that you should not get on a horse till 4 but that is what it is: her opinion. Why has she called it 4 when the last plate in the vertebrae not fuse until 8? She has picked a time that her experience and logic suggest might be very safe. Her numbers on growth plate closure are in agreement with about what I think of them as but it must be said there is a good deal of disagreement about exactly what closure is and when it should be called. It is not an all or none process but a gradual one and not a lot happens that last year. But if we accept Dr. Bennett's numbers as correct the fact is that acute physeal diseases are not seen in the horse past 20 months of age (numerous references but I will put in page 626 of Current Therapy in Equine Medicine 1997) that I am aware of and is typically a disease of foals less than 8 months of age.
There is another side of this argument to be considered: there is little doubt that waiting to start a horse for a specialized rigorous endeavor past a certain age will actually result in more muscoskeletal disease. Immature tissues have a far better ability to remodel and repair in response to exercise. Waiting to a certain age you loose some of the tissues ability to adapt to the regimens of a particular sport. The question is the same as the one for when is too early: it is one of when? What is this window? Do these two windows overlap? We have one positive force and one negative force and what is the net force at any age?
I know of no evidence that horses that are began lightly and carefully at 3 under saddle are more prone to future problems than those began at 4. You can begin a 10 year old and run him into the ground, when dealing with a individual it always is a matter of experience and common sense. Though I use the example of a hunter barn above for my experience with starting very young colts, realize I am not a proponent of starting two year olds under saddle, but let me give you an even more severe personal example: I have a TB Stallion who is 22 years old. He was raced hard as a 2 year old and in fact won a Grade 2 stakes (the Ventnor). For two years was raced every 2 to 3 weeks consistently placing in the top 3 of very good company, till he was 4. He quit winning. I think they wore him out looking at the race record. Then he did all kinds of things until I got him as a 10 year old. We have used him over the years for various sporting endeavors but most consistently he was a dressage horse. He has no signs of arthritis or chronic soft tissue lameness. Is he a remarkable horse? Of course he is, he is mine, but if 4yrs is critical why is he not lame, might not 3yrs be acceptable? He has a beautiful top line and he rounds up very nicely too.
I will continue to look for evidence that lightly starting horses under saddle at 3 is too young but those who feel different should realize it is a opinion that is not firmly rooted in any fact I am aware of. Recently there has been interest in the large number of vertebral changes and irregularities. We do not know if there are fewer in the horse started at 3 versus that at 4. If the purpose is to prevent every preventable lesion 4 or even 8 years old may be too early too!
DrO |
Elizabeth Jopp (Lizjopp)
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2001 - 10:52 am: | |
Hello again. I was one of the people who originally replied to Denise way back when. My horse was 5 at the time and is now 6. He has had a few weird problems since I bought him. However, he does not have any lameness problems (knock wood). He has been jumping mostly small (1'6" to 2'6") jumps and once in a while jumping 2'9" to 3'6". We jump him big on the days he's feeling strong and flat only on other days. He is jumped 2 to 3 times a week and jumped over bigger jumps about once a month.
He has learned a good deal of dressage over the past year as well as lead changes. He is developing an amazing top line and is extremely round and always on the bit! He loves the bit!
He'll be 6 in March and we are just starting to jump the bigger jumps on a more consistent basis (big being 3' to 3'6").
So far so good. However, he's built tough, very stocky, short coupled, and knows how to use his tushy. He also has had a lot of chiropractic treatment and I bought him a special saddle which takes all pressure off of his withers (called a BALANCE saddle).
In other words, he's phyisically ready and mentally ready for larger jumps and more complicated exercises. So, I really think it does depend on the horse, his physical condition, mental condition as well as physical age, the tack you use, and general awareness of his body.
I try to be as aware as I can of his well being. If he's standing funny in the aisle or walks of strangely, I don't jump him and I call the chiropractor.
I think we all just do the best we can and trainers make mistakes and so do we.
Sorry to brag so much. Liz |
Christine C. Mills (Chrism)
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2001 - 1:40 pm: | |
I started riding in Germany years ago.
At the time, 4 yrs was the typical start year, and light work, no jumping for a year or 2. Our school horses were all school masters, in their 20s. They worked 6 days a week in 2-3 hours lessons and did fine with that schedule.
So, I took the same approach with my mare - she was started in her 4th year, lightly.
So far, it has paid off as she is 18 this year and going strong.
I'm considering starting my 2000 foal lightly when she is chronologically a 3 yo, but with very light riding and very gradually build up the work over a couple of years.
Cheers. |
Denise Conroy (Denise)
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2001 - 2:40 pm: | |
Liz, Glad you are doing well and enjoying jumping your horse, that is great. :-)
I do believe that some horses are built to withstand more than others, especially after reading Dr. Deb's conformation analysis booklets.
My daughter's horse is a bit longer backed, which is really not typically of his breed..in addition he is finer boned. And just 14.3 hh. His incredible willingness and attitude that says "jump? how high?" is what made us put blinders on I think. He has springs in his feet and you can tell he just loves to jump! He took 1 -Grand champion and 1- reserve grand in Canada. As well as making front page in our local newspaper.
I certainly take most of this blame on myself for the situation last summer. If I had been more informed and took more of the responsiblity myself...demanded it, in fact...things may have been different. From now on, I listen to that voice inside and lean on the side of caution regardless of the pressure from anyone else.
My daughter's horse turns 6 in April. He is all better now, but we don't plan to jump him hardly at all this coming year. Flat work and conditioning with a few open shows to start and go from there....... |
Elizabeth Jopp (Lizjopp)
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2001 - 2:58 pm: | |
Denise, in your defense, it took me 19 years to be come this sensitive to my horse's needs and capabilities. I think it is just a process and like any learning experience, you have to go through some bad experiences before you understand how it all works. I still feel I have an amazing amount to learn when it comes to my horse and I am sure I have lots of mistakes yet to make.
Your horse sounds totally awesome and now that you know what he can handle, I am sure you won't make the same mistake again.
Good luck and have fun. Liz |
Christine C. Mills (Chrism)
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2001 - 11:34 am: | |
I was reading the Jan. Dressage Today magazine over the weekend. It is devoted to breeding.
There is an article about how things are done in Germany today.
It sounds as if they now start their horses lightly as early as 2 1/2 and go on from there.
So, the need to turn a liability into an asset struck there, too.
Just thought I'd give the "up to date" report. The article has way more information re mares, studs, geldings, what is expected, when, etc. |
Penner
Member
Username: Penner
Post Number: 80
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 3, 2003 - 10:14 am: | |
Hi All,
Just reading these numerous posts on when to start riding a young horse. However, I am unable to find the aforementioned Dr Deb Bennett's conformation analysis booklets, or an article mentioned in another post about joints. I have read Susan Harris' book on Horse Gaits, Balance & Movement, but not much info there about this topic.
Please point me to those if you can find them.
Thanks! Penner |
Cheryl Anderson
Member
Username: Canderso
Post Number: 181
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 3, 2003 - 10:53 am: | |
Deb Bennet's books are hard to find, not easy reading but EXCELLENT sources.
If you do a google search you will find her website. Try Equus as well.
The titles are "Principles of Conformation Analysis" Volumes I, II and III by Deb Bennett, PHD
Publisher is: Fleet Street Publishing Corporation
656 Quince Orchard Road
Gaithersburg, MD 20878
ISBN numbers and publication dates are:
vol 1: 1-929164-05-X (1988)
vol 2: 1-929164-06-8 (1989)
vol 3: 0-9611314-3-8 (1991,1996)
Happy reading!
Cheryl |
Penner
Member
Username: Penner
Post Number: 82
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, Feb 3, 2003 - 10:49 pm: | |
That is great! Thanks Cheryl! |
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