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Discussion on Need some dressage advice / Moral support!
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marci iverson (Aachen)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2002 - 11:49 am: |   |
Basically, my question is, how long does it take to typically get a horse "on the bit"? When I say "on the bit" I mean in the classical dressage sense, being the horse is engaged and moving from behind, flexing the whole top line from tail to nose. I DO NOT mean horse with head in nice position, but hollow back, haunches behind him etc!
Here is my dilema. I have been working with my OTT TB mare for almost 18 months now basically starting from teaching her to "whoa". In the very beginning I used a german martingale to help her not "giraffe" so much. For the past 8 months though, I have been working SOLEY with a french link snaffle only - no tie downs, draw reigns, side reigns (only lunging) or martingales. NOW, she is at the point where I can get her engaged and moving really really well - people say she looks like she is floating. BUT, I can only get it for anywhere from 5 strides to once around the arena. Then, she becomes unbalanced, sees sometheing that catches her attention whatever, but she loses the "frame". In my opinion, she is doing well, as she is not even 5 yet, and If I am correct, it should take a long time to develop the balance and muscles to hold the "correct" dressage frame for an extended period of time. BUT - I need someone to validate this!
In my purist opinion, I would rater work for a long time (like years) to get true engaged, correct flexion and frame with only a snaffle, than ride every day with some sort of device that "puts" my horse in a "fake" frame and as soon as it is taken of the horse loses it. I ride at a barn where practically everyone is using some sort of tie down or martingale.
So, am I way off base? Is my horse progressing too slowely based on my explanation above? DOES IT REALLY TAKE YEARS TO DEVELOP THE MUSCLES TO HOLD A CORRECT FRAME?
Thanks for the opinion! |
Suzanne Moore (Suzym)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2002 - 11:58 am: | |
You are RIGHT ON! It does indeed take years to develop the muscles correctly. Your post was a breath of fresh air  Keep up the GREAT work!
Suzy ~ who's been there and done that  |
marci iverson (Aachen)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2002 - 3:12 pm: | |
Suzy - YOUR REPLY IS MUSIC TO MY EARS! Thanks for the encouragement!
Marci |
Mary E Adams (Ntucket)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2002 - 4:00 pm: | |
Marci
I expect you'll hear from several people here (Christine?) encouraging you to continue on your path with conviction. It's hard to hear people ooh and aahh over pretty frames achieved artifically while your great five true strides go unnoticed. Your mare will be able to mentally and physically build into a consistent frame and then guess what.... you'll want more. That's what's cool about dressage, you're never finished, so why rush thru the stages along the way?
Keep up the great work and try to find some other purists to bond with.
Mary |
Christine C. Mills (Chrism)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2002 - 4:03 pm: | |
It takes years to establish the basics.
It may take fewer years with rider experience and fewer still if the horse bred for dressage.
Even fewer years with greater/more extensive rider experience.
Don't rush, stay true to the classical teachings. A few good moments do evolve to many, many good moments. It takes LOTS of time. Tell yourself that is okay, you've got a lifetime. Each successive horse will make you learn, but it will become less hard.
The key, for me, was to learn to ask, wait for a response and ask again. The horse will know it gives a correct response because you stop asking and become very quiet, supportive. Then the trick is to know when to ask again, before things go south too terribly.
A good ground person (read instructor) is necessary at all skill levels.
Cheers. Enjoy the journey. |
Christine C. Mills (Chrism)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2002 - 4:08 pm: | |
P.S. You may want to join the dressage discussions on the forum at http://www.ultimatedressage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
While sometimes the discussions get cranky, there are a lot of thought provoking ones. I just jump out of the cranky ones.
I'm "a human" over there.
Cheers. |
Teresa Alexander-Arab (Teresaa)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 10, 2002 - 6:36 pm: | |
Congratulations Marci on a great start. My horse and I have been working on dressage for the last 18 months (he's almost 7 now) and the change has been dramatic. Initially we only got one or two moments of nice frame. But over time it has developed where on good days we can keep it for 8-10 strides and when it "goes" it comes back much faster.
Not to be facetious but it takes as much time as it takes. I love the fact that you don't have a timetable and you are exactly right that it's better to go slow and do it right. Of course, that's my opinion too so I have to think you're brilliant .
Asking horses to keep a frame for along time when they haven't built up the muscles is more likely to result in sourness and pain.
good luck
TEresa |
marci iverson (Aachen)
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2002 - 10:43 am: | |
Wow guys! Thanks so much for the words of wisdom! I REALLY REALLY appreciate it! I felt much better about things after reading everybody's thoughts. I am in a wierd situation at my barn because I am the only one with this dressage inspiration - I board at a huge place (over 200 horses) and we have trainers in Arab/saddleseat, Roping, Cutting, Hunter Jumper, Western pleasure, and even someone that does public lessons, but nobody who does dressage. As soon as I get a truck (2 months hopefully) I hope to find someone good in my area and trailer out. Problem is that so many of the instructors that I hear of are also into the quick fixes so I will have to took around for someone with more of a purist attitude!
THANKS AGAIN!!!! I feel much better about my progress now.....
Marci
P.S. Christine, I will check out that web site at lunch today! |
Imogen Bertin (Imogen)
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 13, 2002 - 10:15 am: | |
Marci, hate to pour cold water, but in my experience an inability to concentrate is the main problem with trying to get some thoroughbreds to do dressage. I have a near thoroughbred with amazing paces and the attention span of a gnat. If you could get marks for half a dressage movement she'd be getting 9s and 8s followed by 2s and 3s for the other half of the movement when she got distracted.
If it was just a question of work I'd work her and myself into the ground. Temperament comes into it, so don't beat up on yourself if you are trying to fight against the horse's temperament because you won't win. You will make lots of progress but probably never as much as you would like.
That's why so many of the serious dressage horses are warm-bloods which, because they were bred for carriage driving, also had sensible temperamet bred into them. You do not want a daft horse between the shafts of your only means of transport. But racing - well, that's another horse for another course.
On another note entirely, very interesting article in Horse and Hound last week about how they have now proved with DNA tests that nearly all modern thoroughbreds are descended from the Darley Arabian, and not from the other foundation stallions - possibly owing to the fact he was a better racehorse than the others!
All the best
Imogen |
marci iverson (Aachen)
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2002 - 12:14 pm: | |
Imogen,
Hey, I won't argue with you there! I did have a warmblood at one time - a beautiful hanovarian mare purchased for small fortune from Spruce Meadows in Canada when my parents were paying for my hobby. However, now that I am paying the bills, a thoroughbred is all that I can afford. HOWEVER, I can tell you that from my experience with my previous warmblood and several others that I was fortunate to work with (several imported straight from Germany) that the thoroughbreds have always been smarter and much more sensitive. I also feel that they become much more attached to their owners and in my experience are much more eager to please. The warmbloods seem to me to be saying "ok, i'll do it....big sigh" and the thoroughbreds are like "YEAH! I'll do it!!! and I'll do it even faster!!!" In the first months that I had my current horse, when I was just trying to teach her the difference between whoa, back up, walk trot, turn on the haunch, I would ask her to whoa, and she would go through this whole series of moves almost like a dance trying to figure out the next thing I would ask her - I couldn't help but laugh. |
Betty (Xamier)
| | Posted on Saturday, Jan 19, 2002 - 9:50 am: | |
Hi
I have to disagree that one some horses cannot become good at Dressage because of temperament. The breed's or particular horse's temperament can make some horses more difficult, but it is not impossible.
Warmbloods can be easier to work with, However, if one is willing to take the time, a hot blood can be a brilliant Dressage horse.
I ride Arabians to do Dressage and I find it takes more experience and correctness to do Dressage with sensitive horse, but when you do get there the extra time and effort are well worth it.
Betty |
Isabella Forcella (Isabe)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2002 - 5:52 am: | |
Hi Merci,
Believe me you are on the right path.
I have your same problems, more with people actually than with my horse, a 7 years old mare named Hairi. I 've had her since she was 3 1/2 and I used to ride her first with a fix martingale than with draw reins, just to have her in a "fake" collection. Six months ago I met a trainer who completely changed my approach to riding and completely changed the way my horse moved.
He is teaching classical dressage and after sis months I'm now discovering what falt work really means and what is to have a horse working supple and collected.
Of course as you I'm still at the very beginning, it is only since a few weeks that Hairi is starting to be able to keep a nice frame (a beginning of collection) and to engage her hind legs for several stride (she also could keep it only for a few strides at the beginning). I still have the problem to keep her concentrate sometimes but this is because she is relatively young and she has still to learn it. Be patient your horse is very young and she is not a machine, she thinks and is naturally interested in what is happening around her. I'm sure she will learn to work with you more concentration day by day. Do not ask her too much.
I know what it means to have around people that constantly critisize your work is upsetting but do not give up, what you are obtaining with your horse even if requires much more time and efforts will be rewarded at the end and your horse will be grateful to you for not having used all these tie down tools which often cause the horse pain and sourness.
I add also that I worked with a so called bitlessbridle, without any snaffle or bit and this is another cause of critics, but I think it works very well. For information see Dr. Cook website www.bitlessbridle.com (I found this website reading a forum discussion).
All the best
Isabella |
marci iverson (Aachen)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 23, 2002 - 10:38 am: | |
Thanks again for all of the great advice guys - it is sooo encouraging. Isabella, i will check out the bitless bridle, and keep my fingers crossed that I can meet a trainer as good as yours sounds someday!
Christine - I LOVE THE ULTIMATE DRESSAGE website! I highly recommend it to all of you who are interested in this type of riding as it is super informative. (you are right about the grouchiness though!) |
Adria Weatherbee
Member
Username: adriaa
Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 7:33 am: | |
I'm going to resurrect this thread since I've got this going around in my head with my new girl Rose. My trainer is het up about getting her and keeping her on the bit and in a nice frame. She's a coming 7 yo TB and has really only been in formal training for 9 months or so. I'm reading about the "taking years" to truly be "on the bit" and truly collected, which I know is 2nd and 3rd level. She is doing well engaging her hind and has a nice balanced trot. I can see she gets tired, she starts to toss her head, as if to say "let me out of here, it's too much" . Am I being to nice? I feel she really needs to slowly build up those muscles, she's well muscled in the hind and has great impulsion, nice strides. Can the hind be engaged even if the horse is not "on the bit" is that correct or incorrect?
She will go on the bit for a few strides then she gets tired.
I do intend to do dressage with her, unfortunately my instructor is not a dressage person. Rose was previously out to pasture for 2 years, so is really just starting. She's very supple and light, very responsive.
Also about the TB attention span thing, she is a bit "gotta know what's going on" but hey she's got feelings. Every time we go by the door, she sees her friends, "Oh, hi guys it's me Rose, they are making me work, oh there's the hay truck, oh what's that over there", but she is not bad about it and pays attention quite well. Good overall attitude.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: hwood
Post Number: 1805
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 8:20 am: | |
Adria, congrats, again, on getting such a lovely mare.
I believe your gut is correct in this. Any conditioning program is done SLOWLY . . . with increased work added in increments. How long can any of us "forward-looking" people walk or jog around looking at our belly buttons before our necks get sore? If Rose can trot the arena three times around "on the bit" for the first month, then on the fourth week, ask for 1/2 the arena more . . . or an extra round . . . and do that for a week, and then add more . . . always being sensitive to what your horse is telling you . . . while being confident about your request. You will recognize little sorenesses and avoidances and gives and successes for a long while as you two are getting to know one another and begin a working partnership.
I believe a horse can be engaged behind without being on the bit . . . but I don't believe a horse can be "on the bit" without being engaged behind . . . It may be a matter of semantics of the different riding styles and training methods on that question.
Little squeezes on the reins and "askings" to say, "Hey, Rose, don't forget I'm right here . . . we can talk to your friends later," will be helpful, but I think you are already doing that. You are building a new regimen for her and getting her muscles and mind into new patterns . . . and it will take lots of love, time . . . and a good sense of humor.
Will love to see a pic of you up on top if your trainer can take one for us. |
katrina
Member
Username: kthorse
Post Number: 768
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 9:40 am: | |
I agree with Holly 100%. Thats what I would do.
I just read a dressage book that said the opposite. It said to keep the horse in a frame and on the bit right from the start. She also said to keep a firmer rein on a young horse untill that they eventually get softer in your hands. The author said that lunge work first to get the horse muscled then always keep them on the bit except for stretching. There are so many different oppinions on this it gets confusing. I dont agree with keeping them on the bit , but I guess it works for some. I prefer Hollys method personally. |
Cynthia L Spanhel
Member
Username: cspanhel
Post Number: 19
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 9:46 am: | |
I wish I was a dressage expert, but alas, it appears to takes a lifetime...but it does sound to me like the trainer is into 'cram and jam' to get the frame/headset, which is most definitely NOT how you want to proceed. You do definitely need to allow time to build the muscles required to move up the levels. A good trainer can tell by the muscle development in the horse whether the horse has been worked/trained correctly.
I can recommend a good beginning book which I have used and like a lot: 'Lessons with Lendon: 25 Progressive Dressage Lessons to Take you from "Whoa and go"....' (By Lendon Gray)...I used this book to work both on my riding and to train my horse...
cynthia |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: amara
Post Number: 235
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 10:37 am: | |
did you really mean "just a few strides" when you wrote that Adria?, or more like "for a few minutes"...
if she can only hold it for a "few strides" as you say, then you are either asking her for way more collection then she is physically capable of handling (which i dont think is the case based on what you've written in the past), or she is just playing with you...
gettin a horse "collected" is as much a mental mindset for the horse as it is physical conditioning... at 9 months of regular training she should be fit enough to work for quite awhile "on the bit" (i'm not talking hours, but a 10-15 minutes at a time should be about right)..(done several times in a lesson).. because you describe her as sometimes getting distracted at the arena openings it sounds like she is playing you a bit... sometimes you need to push thru the head tossing to get the mind right.. then whenn the horse is seriously working you can more accurate gauge if the horse is tired or not..
having said this, i do agree that the whole process takes a long time, tho i dont think you need to go nearly as slowly as you think... the best way to gain conditioning is to push "a little farther" around every 5-7 days.. it should also be done in "sets", not just one session per day...
if your trainer is truly into "cram and jam" as Cynthia mentioned that you need to get another trainer right away... but sometimes you need to push thru the mental resistance a a little more strongly than you think, especially if the horse has had a long time off or has been incorrectly ridden...
good luck! |
Anita Wilson
Member
Username: anta
Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 11:55 am: | |
Hi Adria,
I do so agree on the replies you have had to your questions, I have seen so many willing horses have there temperaments put into question by trainers that have a boot them up and into the bridle attitude. Have a look at your basic dressage test if that is where you are starting from. What does the test require from a horse at that level of training? Basic tests definitely do not insist that the horse is completely on the bit and engaged behind but is actively going forward and balanced first. Most riders train slightly above that at home, if appropriate and start to introduce slowly moves that would then allow them to move on to the level above. All horses are different, just like athletes as to how quickly they progress on certain training aspects. I do so feel that you and your trainer should have a lesson away from the horse and discuss what it is you are wanting to achieve and can they take you their. Sounds to me like you are doing ok with a nice balanced trot and engaging behind after 9 months. I most certainly would get copies of tests for your level and work to thats where you should be aiming at before moving on.
Good luck
Anita |
Adria Weatherbee
Member
Username: adriaa
Post Number: 45
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 1:10 pm: | |
I just talked to my other trainer who is a bit more laid back in general, she says that when she has ridden her she's been on the bit 80% of the time and her general concensus was that I was way too nice, and my hands a little too delicate, not firm enough. Fine line there. She also said that when she rode her it took a lot of forward, driving to get her to to bring herself under and onto the bit. So, I think it's a lot of me... I need to really be a bit more insistent and she is playing with me.
She also said it's not imperative but at this stage in her training she should be able to go on the bit and engage.
Melissa: I'm not asking too much of her probably the opposite, lol. Like you said she playing and I need to get her to pay attention and I need to work on my seat, drive a little stronger.
I have "Lessons with Lendon", and a lot of her beginning work is just relaxed, balanced work. It's a great book. That and Sally Swift's "Centered Riding"
I wouldn't say "cram and jam", it's different when she rides her, she really works her, really drives her on the bit, when I ride her I'm still getting to know her, and my self as well.
She's quite light on the forehand in general, when she is on the bit and engaged she's lovely.
Oh, man I can't wait 'till Spring!!!! It's been so cold, I'm stiff just from the cold!
thanks |
Lori
Member
Username: maggienm
Post Number: 384
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 3:20 pm: | |
This thread is right where i am. Is it me or the mare? Is she ready for more or does she need more conditioning?
I, too, choose to take the long road amid many who choose artificial aids.
I have wondered about Lessons with Lendon, I have read articles by him and liked him but I am nervous about buying yet another book.
Maybe someone could do a review? I guess my specific question would be how does he lay out the lesson and does he indicate how you how to know when to move on?
Thanks |
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