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Discussion on How to be a Alpha leader in your horses eye | |
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 7, 2002 - 12:37 pm: I have a gelding going on three in a couple of months. I have done all the ground work on him and he knows lateral flexion and vertical, and all the ground work in between and is ready to be ridden under saddle. He is very smart, but, my problem is when I go to put the halter on him, he puts his head to the ground and tries to bit my legs or any part that he can, also when I reward him by petting him on the neck after he has done a good job on our training sessions, he tries to turn and bit me or anything I might have in my hand, he tries to control you with his head. I have tried all the devices on biting, tacks in leather around your hand, crop to bump him on the forearm but he knows when you don't have these devices and try's it everytime. I stand at his shoulder so he really has to reach around to try and bit, sometimes he just wants to turn and say hello, but then it usally turns into a quick nip or bit. He has never bit me but he try's. Marty Martin and Pat Parelli say that you need your horse to respect your space and respect you as being the alpha leader, but neither of them tell you how to go about it. He also try's to run me down if I am out in the corral and he is free to go about his business, he likes to make my business his, he will run up to you and if you try to wave you arms to get him to back off, he rears up at me. He is an only horse so, at times I think he just wants to play but, all of these bad habits are getting very frustrating. Does anyone have any good ideas? Thank You, Sandy Mendez |
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 7, 2002 - 1:32 pm: Hi Sandy,it seems like he is still trying to figure out who's in charge. I like John Lyon's method of correcting a horse that nips/bites and/or kicks: you have 3 seconds to convince him you're going to kill him and then stop and go back to what you are doing. I would stop completely giving him any treats by hand and only in his feeder. If he's smart enough to know when you have a crop then use your hand and/or foot. A quick kick in the ribs with the flat upper part of your foot will convince him you mean busisness without hurting him. In haltering place your hand above his nose by reaching under his jaw so you can control it. If he tries to DrOp it or swing it around squeeze and don't stop until he does. For now use a lunge whip to keep his distance in the paddock and don't be afraid to use it he comes too close. Your voice is a good aid as well and should be used for all corrections so you can stop the physical corrections and stick to voice only. Do not spend a lot of time stroking and patting this horse if he hasn't earned it. In other words don't correct him one second and then say lovingly "oh honey don't be like that" because then your sending mixed messages. When a horse becomes aggressive with me I fix it and then wait for them to come to me to 'apologise' as it were. If you watch horses in the field that is how they act to one another. good luck Teresa PS it's not unusual for 3 year-olds to push the limits as they are feeling 'grown up' muchlike 14 year old humans. |
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 7, 2002 - 5:30 pm: I would bet that Linda Tellington Jones would suggest "mouth work" using TTOUCH. I've seen this help. It is best if someone can show you.Mark Rashid would probably do his big, full frontal body placement with the verbal shhhhh each time the horse started to bite and have him back off. This can be very effective for crowding, etc. Both techniques are easier to see rather than to describe. Mark's requires consistency - each time the horse starts to crowd you, respond with the "full peacock" and funny noise. After a while, the horse will decide not do attempt to touch your person. Colts often play with their heads as well as nibble on their friends in mutual grooming. So, I wouldn't go overboard on the response, just enough to get his attention and cause him to cease/back off. Then when he is sweet and behaving a friendly rub is nice. |
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Posted on Friday, Feb 8, 2002 - 11:12 pm: Hi Sandy, there are lots of ideas on how to fix this colt, but while you are figuring out your strategy be sure to not put your self in a position of danger. If he was mine I would change all the rules: Put a halter on him ( a leather one that will break if he gets it caught) and leave it on him with a lead rope attached. Let him drag it around. You can use the end of the lead rope to correct him right behind his ear (but be careful no to hit his eye!) Never go out in the paddock with out a whip or some way to control him. I wouldn't pet him or hand feed him. If he deserves a reward, a kind word will do for now. By continually putting yourself in a position where he takes control, you are reinforcing the behavior. This lifestyle change is dramatic enough to get his attention and put you in control. Doing this may mean you need to change your daily routine. Just as an example, if you were to open his stall door and he pinned his ears and snaked his head at you then close the door in his face, eventually he will get hungry and be happy to see you. I would definitely do some round pen work. It will help you learn how to control his body while he is loose and gain his respect. You might be able to rent a video on round penning at your favorite tack store. When you are working with him, make it all business. You need to decide that YOU will be in control. After he learns this lesson there will be time for treats and comradery.He is still an immature horse, and some of these problems will pass. Its almost magical how a 5 or 6 year old horse will suddenly change from an ungrateful teenager to a respectful adult. Nevertheless do not make the mistake of allowing bad habits to get set in his mind. All of your hard work will pay off and the effort and experience will be richly rewarding. |
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Posted on Friday, Feb 8, 2002 - 11:32 pm: An added note:(Previous was my wife's learned advice... this is my two cents!) Chris suggested that colts nip at each other as grooming and friendly banter. Adult males, geldings and stallions will nip and bite at each other for fun, in anger, and/or to establish pecking order. However, humans are not a part of the herd. A horse should respect humans and the owner/handler should be in control. Always. This is not an issue of domination or cruelty. It just is a fact that unless learned and accepted by the horse, he will always be hard to handle or control and certainly will be a danger to the inexperienced or children. I like that my kids can freely talk to, feed, pet, and ride my horse without fear. Good luck!! Dennis |
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 9, 2002 - 1:50 am: Hi Sandy,I too have a gelding fast approaching three, they are a hand full. I don't wish for this to come across wrong but, you stated you had done all the ground work on your boy. The problems you describe indicate that isn't correct; besides ground work is never "done". You mentioned three things he does from the ground. Let me ask you this: - Will he give his hip each and every time you ask? - Will he give his shoulder when you ask? - Will he back up (not just one or two steps but a fast walk or jog backwards)? I don't think I can describe to you how to get this respect, I'm still learning myself. I do know that my trainer would not have sat his, or mine, back sides on my three year old until these were all "YES", and much more. I was the first to ride him. I would suggest a good trainer (I hesitate to say "natural horsemanship"), if by chance you are in the Southern CA area I would have some suggestions. Second best would be some tapes by Pat Parelli or Clinton Anderson (I like him alot) or the like. You are welcome to contact me directly by email and I could try describing the exercises I do in detail. Good luck. Alden |
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Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2002 - 12:54 pm: Hi Teresa,Thank You for answering my post, but, I don't think you understood it properly. Once he has done all the ground work properly, only then do I pet or stroke him, it's then when he tries to turn and bit and gets aggresive with his head, that's the problem. If I were to convience him I was going to kill him (John Lyons) after I pet him for doing what I have asked him to do, I think that would be sending mixed signals. I think Dennis had a good idea, for now I will just try using kind words to reward him for good behavior. Thanks to all for you're help there all great ideas, I will let you know. Thank You Sandy Mendez |
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Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2002 - 1:14 pm: Hi Dennis,Thank You for you're help, I will take your advice on just using a kind work to reward him for now. The halter problem is only when I go to put it on, once the halter is on, he knows that I do have control over him, I think that is what he doesn't like. He is very smart and a quick learner but I also think he gets tired of being lunged and worked on the same ground work procedures that (Pat Parelli) recommends. He has learned all lateral and vertical flexion very quickly. I have been on him and so far he has done very well. It's just those problems that I have mentioned before. I will take everyone's advice and see which one works. Thank You, to everyone Sandy Mendez |
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Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2002 - 8:58 pm: By the way, Sandy, what the breed of your horse? (just curious)Dennis |
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2002 - 6:31 am: Hello Sandy,Teresa understood and I think you miss an important component of horse behavior: they know when they are being aggressive and they are acutely watching for your response. He will understand perfectly if following a bite he is NOT reprimanded, he has learned it is OK to bite it may escalate or generalize to other situations. Dealing with thousands of horses under some of the most adverse conditions I have never had a horse offer to bite me more than once. DrO |
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2002 - 11:25 am: Dr. O ~ May I ask how you handle situations like this?Suzy |
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2002 - 12:36 pm: I want to second Teresa's idea about kicking the horse in the ribs (Teresa, I thought that was a great post).Sandy, I know it sounds awful but it works, it doesn't hurt them much but gives them a hell of a fright which instils respect and you will quite often see old horsemen here in Ireland do it. A sharp punch in the same area (sort of where you would put the girth or just behind) can also work wonders. It is important you do it very quickly, immediately after the horse does something bold. I recently nearly had my hip broken by a horse whose owner was reknowned for being too soft with young stock. It was a salutory lesson in what happens when half a ton of horse has no respect for humans. Another friend of mine who is much too soft with her horse recently had her foot broken when yet again he wouldn't stand except on her. In contrast, on Saturday night I had to get an injured two-year old out of a field of thoroughbreds quickly. This two-year old had been well handled as foal and yearling (not by me). I had no difficulty whatsoever and was able to catch him, get him through the gate and lead him down to a stable ready for the vet to treat with minimum hassle. (By the way Sandy, you said your horse was an "only" horse - did you mean he was an orphan, or bottle fed foal? They generally think they are humans and are particularly difficult to teach appropriate discipline to.) I'm also a strong believer in a short sharp lash on the neck with the end of the lead rope for dangerous disobedience when being led. I'm sure we all sound like frightful sadists but hey, you come to this discussion board for honest advice, so that's what you get... All the best Imogen |
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2002 - 5:08 pm: Sure Suzanne,In fact, though I know this is a surprise, I have written a whole article on the subject see, Training Horses: Behavioral Problems: Aggression in Horses. DrO |
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2002 - 12:30 pm: Hi Dennis,He is a registered paint but all black with Hancock, King and Poco bloodlines. By the way Dennis, I took you advise on just using words and using the end of the lead rope behind the ear, as well as at one time kicking him in the ribs, which I have done before, and he has changed his additude completly. He doesn't move a muscle once we are done working and I am standing next to him, whereas before he would try to turn and bit. Teresa, I used your haltering technique and it worked great Thank You. He is a very smart horse and so far I have seen a dramatic improvement. Imogen, no, he was not bottle raised, what I meant by an only horse is that he does not have any play mates as of yet. Thanks to all, Sandy Mendez |
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2002 - 6:56 pm: Hi Sandy,glad to hear that you are seeing improvement. The key is to be consistent in your expectations for behavior and in your treatment of him. I don't always expect my horse to be overjoyed at the idea of working when the others are getting fed or he wants a nap or the wind is coming from the north . But I do expect him to be 'polite'. T |
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