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Dennis A. Johnson (Dennisaj)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 26, 2002 - 11:52 pm: |   |
We got a 4yo Arabian Gelding about a month ago that was "green broke" and had been shown a few times. We have filled in most of the gaps but one: he is afraid of taking the bit and of removing the bit.
Here is an outline of what we have done and what we are doing:
Once bridled he accepts the bit well and is responsive. We have taught him to lower his head and be submissive. We are using a Happy Mouth straight plastic snaffle. We are extremely careful and gentle in inserting and removing the bit making certain not to hit his teeth. His bridle is fitted properly and his teeth are in good shape. Putting molasses on the mouthpiece worked a few times but he still sees the insertion of the bit and removal of the bit as something to be feared. We have got him to open his mouth fully (usually by pinching off the nasal passage, but also by pinching against his lower bar with the thumb) and then inserting the bit swiftly with no contact. But he still fears the process.
We are looking for innovative suggestions. We are going to try mouth and gum massage (such as Tellington-Jones method). We are fairly certain he had a bad experience that he just won't forget or let go. In all other respects he is smart and teachable.
Dennis |
Ann H. Cordner (Annc)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 27, 2002 - 7:48 am: | |
I would suggest never closing off the nasal passage and never pinching anywhere near his nose or mouth. Many horses will react very strongly to not being able to breathe or to the discomfort of being pinched anywhere near the mouth area. Try simply placing a finger on the gum tissue (in the area where the bit normally lies) and gently wiggling it. The first few times this may take some patience, but to be successful for the long run you must wait until the horse opens his mouth enough to insert the bit gently and with absolutely no discomfort. I would still use molasses or whatever he likes (a small piece of sugar also often works). Also, be very gentle around his ears, as many horses object to bridling because of ear discomfort. Make sure you have plenty of time whenever you plan to bridle him. If you revert back to anything that causes discomfort, you will obviously lose what you have worked to accomplish. Expect this to take a fair amount of time and patience for a while, but soon you will never have to deal with the problem again. |
Melissa Webster (Mwebster)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 27, 2002 - 8:31 am: | |
Have you checked for wolf teeth that might be causing him pain? A friend's young gelding had an impacted wolf tooth, and it took quite a while to diagnose since it didn't cause pain "most" of the time, just when the bit hit the tooth. Could be his expectation of pain. Anyhow, good idea to rule that out. |
Teresa Alexander-Arab (Teresaa)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 27, 2002 - 11:07 am: | |
When my horse was younger all we worked on was the lowering of the head. I gently placed the bridle in position but did not finish until he opened his mouth for the bit. On occassion I gently rubbed his mouth to encourage the opening. Once on he got lots of 'good boys', pats and a treat that dissolved (chewing around the bit can be a problem). To remove the bridle, I undo the straps and place my hand on the strap over the poll. Once his mouth is open I remove the bridle with another good boy and treat. As a result bridling has never been an issue and he shows no avoidance at all. Now his reward is simply 'good boy' and at the end an nice brushing of the itchy spots. it may be that it's happening too fast for your horse and/or the pinching causes him distress. If you act like you have all the time in the world then the horse will respond quickly.
good luck
Teresa |
Dennis A. Johnson (Dennisaj)
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 28, 2002 - 12:28 am: | |
Friends:
Concerning Wolf Teeth.. this is not the issue as wolf teeth would be a problem once the bit was in. Our boy doens't have any problem once the bit is in. In fact he is very responsive and accepting both under saddle and at the lunge.
Concerning the basic gentle approaches.. this is not an issue with this horse. He had some experience in the past (remember he has shown as several regional Arab events and was "green broke" when we got him) has caused him to clam up when approached with the bit. If a horse has a fear issue, no amount of good boys, pats, and gum tickling is going to get him to do what he fears. He fears the bit. We tried to give a summary of methods used to get him to open his mouth which included pinching off the nasal passage which is not any more painful than someone pinching your nose.
What we are looking for is something innovative to help our boy overcome the fear. Basics we know and we have done (for many years I might add).
At first he tried rearing and then just throwing his head back. He no longer does either. And nothing we have done is hurting his teeth (plastic bit is being used) and the headset is as simple as they come.
Our challenge is to tackle the fear problem. We look forward to more comments! |
Linda Antipala (Alika)
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 28, 2002 - 1:59 am: | |
My 11 year old arab mare had (has) the same fear of the bit. Just dangling the bit within three feet of her head sends her into a panic. Not just resistance, but a neck sweating wild eyed hysteria. We don't know why, she was like this when we bought her. She can be standing in the shed while I'm in the tack room, I'll merely jingle a headstall to test her reaction and she'll immediately bolt. The former owner rode in parades, high school rodeo, long trail rides, only in hackamore. We soaked a bit in molasses, stuck sugar cubes in her mouth, tried every technique going and nothing worked. Teeth checked, ears checked, you name it. Bought at least four different bits, including the apple plastic. Our solution was to give up! I went from the hackamore to a sidepull and now just a rope halter. She's fine, she's happy, she whoas and turns. I see from your profile that you don't plan to have this gelding for a long time. What will he eventually be used for if you don't mind my asking? Is it absolutely necessary that he be ridden with a bit? It's a mystery to me why my mare is so fearful. She's brave and calm about just about everything but that little piece of metal. |
Teresa Alexander-Arab (Teresaa)
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 28, 2002 - 11:51 am: | |
I have to say that I disagree. Positive reinforcement applied systematically to a problem will help a horse overcome his/her fears. Force never will. Dr. O has a nice article on 'behavioral issues' that you might find useful. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 28, 2002 - 10:19 pm: | |
You will find that article at, Training Horses: Training the Mind of Your Horse: Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses.
DrO |
Dennis A. Johnson (Dennisaj)
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 28, 2002 - 10:20 pm: | |
To Linda:
ARabs tend to be tempermental and flighty so your story doesn't suprise me. And neither does our Geldings actions. We got him with the intention of finishing his training (and fixing the holes) and selling him. My wife is now very pregnant so we are stepping the time frame up a little bit. He is very well bred and stocky (by Khadraj Region 3/6/Wyo Champ -- top 10 Can Natl 2x) and we think he is a great western prospect.
We have actually made some great progress in the last two days. As we said, he is VERY smart. (just a DUMB fear of the bit).
Horses can have funny fears and often it takes years to overcome them (water, trailering, biting, mailboxes, snaps, etc.) In our situation we wanted to hear some new ideas. We are trying something new that my wife conjured up, but I'll give us a few more days at it before I share it because I can already anticipate the gasps of disbelief!
To Teresa:
We have always enjoyed your comments. I have read Dr. O's articles on behavioural problems and modifications several times. Perhaps you forgot his comments on negative reinforcement. In one comment on bridling problems (horse rearing and striking) he suggests using a chain over the nose. Only experienced handlers should tackle a hard to control horse because the risk of injury to handler and horse are great. But I assure you that the methods we have used a far from harsh.
The larger point though is that at times, you don't try to be the nice gentle touchy-feely handler of a horse. A horse must respect and obey your wishes. In the herd, a recalcitrant horse will get the tar kicked out of him by the dominant horse (be it mare, stallion or gelding). That is how they learn in the herd.
Fortunately, we have more tools and methods available to us. But first and foremost, we humans are the dominant ones. If your horse doesn't believe you to be dominant, you will have behavioural problems right and left. We see this with others all the time. And it is sad, because both horse and rider are left with less than optimum enjoyment.
I appreciate the holistic and positive reinforcement based training methods. But at times they are overdone. There always comes a time when the trainer must say "do this" and then be prepared to back it up. Xenophone's treatise and Col. Podjaski's (spelling?) book are excellent instruction on the proper use of force in training a horse. I beleive that anyone who will spend several hundred dollars on modern training clinics such as Pirelli or Tellington-Jones have wasted money if they did not first invest $30 in getting and reading just those two books.
I don't mean any disrespect to your views and I agree with you 90%. But when a horse has a BIG FEAR gentleness may not get the job done. And perhaps my use and understanding of the word "force" is less harsh than you beleive.
(after re-reading your response I have to say I agree with the "systematic positive reinforcement" point 99%!!... but I hope you see the point I am trying to make)
Thank you again and keep the ideas coming.. we will keep you posted on the progress.
Dennis |
Teresa Alexander-Arab (Teresaa)
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 30, 2002 - 1:47 pm: | |
This has become quite an interesting discussion! 
As you may know from some of my previous posts I'm not an overly permissive/pampering horseperson. I tend to have a okay we're going to do this sort of attitude. But I also believe that A)you should pick your battles B) a genuine fear response should be treated differently then an evasion. Sometimes the best way to win is never to argue in the first place (something I should try with my spouse and children on occassion  ). |
Dennis A. Johnson (Dennisaj)
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 30, 2002 - 10:24 pm: | |
Teresa:
Good points. Evasion is actually the better word than fear. And by the way, I just bought Dr. Sue McDonnell's book "Understanding Horse Behaviour" (she was the presentor that formed the basis of the article to which you refered) She likewise advises to choose the battle.
As I alluded to earlier we are trying something very innovative which involves getting this gelding to confront his fear (and hopefully learn that there is really nothing to be afraid of.) I'll give specifics in a week after we have had sometime to measure the success.
Dennis |
M. Monica Calhoun (Monicac)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 3, 2002 - 5:46 pm: | |
Maybe this is too "nice gentle touchy-feely" however, I would suggest the book Clicker Training For Your Horse by Alexandra Kurland. I am reading it right now and if I remember right it has a section on how to work with your horse on bridling. Just a suggestion. Monica C. |
Dennis A. Johnson (Dennisaj)
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 7, 2002 - 12:59 pm: | |
Thanks for your suggestion Monica. We are familiar with clicker trianing and we regularly employ variations of it. What we have failed to do in this discussion is to frame the training dilemna correctly. We have actually had some great success with a new process. But let me first try to better describe the training problem.
A horse can easily kill a human. At 900 to 1200 lbs for the average horse a trainer can not really "force" a horse contrary to its will. A trainer persuades whether by reward, by repitition or by the inflication of pain. All training methods use variations of those three concepts.
But a horse can be famously stubborn and irrationally fearful or adverse to accept a necessary function. (think shoeing, dental work, sheath examination, etc.) Our problem was that this gelding had a GREAT aversion to accepting insertion of the bit or allowing removal of the bit. We could "force" it, but that was doing nothing but to add aditional reason in his mind to fear the process. We could coax his mouth open (the Tellington Jones method of massageing the upper lip and rubbing the upper gum was nominally helpful, but you have to remove your finger from the gum quickly because as the mouth opens your finger is left right in between the incisors!) by various methods but it would require a great deal of time and often taught nothing. (for example, he quickly learned how to lick the molasses from the bit without opening his mouth to accept it.) The problem was to teach him it is okay, as not painful and even rewarding, to take the bit insertion.
Over the past three weeks I have read dozens of discussions on this problem here and elsewhere (I might add that a 2 yr old discussion here was as good and as informative as any I found anywhere including Jessica Jahiel's very good collection). I searched training articles online, and reviewed a half a dozen books we have that deal with the subject. (I'm still waiting for the arrival of Dr. McDonnel's book though). Still nothing greatly innovative was presented. Mankind has been working on training the horse for milennia and some problems have existed since Xenophone and the solutions haven't changed much.
We did try something that I could not find elsewhere though the concept is not new. We decided to have our gelding confront his fear. And by making him confront and choose he would learn that it was okay, even better, to take the bit.
First remember that we are using a plastic straight snaffle. To get him to confront his fear, we adjusted the length of the bridle so the bit lay right between his front teeth. He could chew on the bit (plastic and therefore not hurtful in any way), hold his mouth slack jawed, or use his tongue and position his head to hold it in position on his bars.
He tried chewing. His attitude seemed to be, hmm, not so bad.
He took it back to position. That he definitely liked. In fact he preferred it.
We conducted about five sessions of this lesson over the last two weeks. With repeated insertions and removals each time. And each time we left him to himself and the bit for 5 to 15 minutes. Yesterday afternoon, he cheerfully opened his mouth for both insertion and removal and we had a wonderful riding session.
We don't believe the lesson completed (maybe just 90%) but the progress has been tremendous.
Some final thoughts: This would not work with a metal bit as it would be painful and could chip his teeth. We think his particular circumstances argued for this approach. Had we trained him from the start we don't beleive the problem would have developed in the first place. We are filling training holes left by his previous handlers.
There is a place for "natural" training methods and we believe on the whole they are superior to the harsher "breaking" methods. Nonetheless, training methods that guide a horse to a path of learning by pain avoidance are time proven and effective and will continue to be employed by us and thousands of trainers worldwide.
Dennis and Beth |
Holly Z.
Member
Username: Cowgrl
Post Number: 64
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 1, 2004 - 12:36 pm: | |
Dennis and Beth, I just read your posts and what a great idea for getting him to happily accept the bit. It seems you were finally able to tap into his "thinking side" instead of his "reacting side".
Glad you were able to break through to the great guy he really is.
Holly |
