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Discussion on Husband Needs to Stop Breaking Down Horses
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Gloria Adams (Penner)
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 7, 2002 - 6:47 pm: |   |
Help!
I realize probably most people here ride English, but the following would be akin to training a TB to race a race every 2-3 weeks, BY racing him at top speed 2-3x a week, then not taking him out of the stall the rest of the week.
I need someone besides me to get my husband to understand conditioning of head team roping horses, & understand that he himself, is giving into peer pressure.
We are beginner team roping Headers (roping 1-2 years. I have been riding for 30yrs, my husband for 10yrs & is 45 yo.
My husband thinks he must run every steer (never score: this is letting the cow out of the chute, but don't chase him. This is good for calming a horses nerves, as well as running a fast cow really will ruin your horse as you win competitions roping the slow cows), won't remember to steer stop (this is stopping them in a straight line without a heeler. This is less torque on the horses legs. He always lets his horse duck to the left & tow the cow), & runs every run as fast as he can because he says he has to practice being fast so he can place at local jackpots.
During roping season (this last 6 mo), he roped 2-3x a week (21 steers each roping session), then round robins: 15 steers in that) every 2-3 weeks. All of these runs were done full blast because he says he has to rope "as fast as possible to get good".
I read Spin to Win http://www.spinwithjake.com/ written by Jake Barnes & Clay Cooper (the all time best PRCA header & heeler in rodeo history).
They say...
1. the practice arena is for consistency & control, not for roping fast.
2. practice on the slow cattle, & just score the fast ones, so as not to ruin your 1 good horse, + you make your money on the slow ones at a jackpot anyway.
3. Heel horses can do many more runs as theres less "towing" & torque on the horses legs.
He won't believe me even tho I quote from STW (My husband won't really read about roping, he just does it).
What has happened is as follows. We bought him a very nice head horse ($10,000), but he sees all his friends with $1000 grade horses roping as fast as they can & turning to the left all the time in the practice arena, so he imitates them. He also sees a heeler friend doing twice as many runs as he does, so my husband says he figures his 1 nice head horse can "take it".
Now what has happened is the horses back pastern needs a $2800 surgery for ligament problems.
This seems so cruel to me & was avoidable, but I am at a loss to get thru to him what he did was very wrong. Those other guys maybe go thru their horses like water, but they didn't pay this kind of money, so they wreck 1 & just buy another, I guess. I DO tell him not to do the above (as you can see from his answers), but obviously I am getting nowhere.
Please help, this is the 4th horse he has gone thru in 10 years. I thought by finally getting him a nice finished horse, he would treasure owning it, but all he did is trash it again. What can I do? I have written an email to the Spin to Win website & hoping they will write back to him. |
Linda Antipala (Alika)
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 7, 2002 - 8:03 pm: | |
Gloria, my first thought when I started reading your message was to recommend reading Spin to Win. And quickly discovered that you already have, which is great. Although my husband doesn't rope yet, he really really wants to and hangs out with the ropers, practices roping the bucket, etc. Before his roping ambitions set in, we were just recreational trail riders. Sold his steady old trail horse and bought a nice young QH, not trained to rope but the two of them would learn together. The new horse was sent to a trainers for three months, not for roping but finishing. This is what helped my husband calm down, not push, take it easy - the trainer, an admired and respected reiner and roper, kept telling my husband to SLOW down, to treat his horse good, the horse works hard for you, so be fair, all those words over and over everytime we visited. And there's a video called "How to Train Your Own Roping Horse" (sorry, can't remember the guys name) where he says over and over, "do not get in a fight with your horse. When your horse does something good, pet him and put him away." Yes, this applies to training but maybe getting your hubby around some gentle minded cowboys or having him watch the videos might help. The ropers here take very, very good care of their horses and absolutely do not push them. It probably is because we live on a small island (Kauai) and no way you can just drive a few miles to any ol' ranch and buy any ol' horse. A good roping horse here is a rare and precious commodity. You can imagine the expense and risk involved in buying a horse on the mainland, and having it shipped by barge across the ocean to Hawaii. It seems like you're living where the roping horse supply outweighs the demand. I do sympathize so much with you (and with the poor turn and burn horses). To sum up two suggestions, hope he'd watch the videos and some why get him to listen to a kinder, gentler trainer/roper. Good luck! |
Penner (Penner)
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 7, 2002 - 8:05 pm: | |
PS: To Everyone..Please spell it out what your feelings are. Don't worry about being "politically correct", think of it as saving another horse in the future from being broken down. |
barbara (Oscarvv)
| | Posted on Saturday, Jun 8, 2002 - 8:33 am: | |
Wow, my feelings are whether a horse cost $500 or $50,000 it isn't right to trash them. They are living animals. What happens to the horses that are ruined?
Maybe if you can find a guy to talk to him about this he would listen.
Gosh, these are horses not old cars used in a demolision derby.
Good luck. |
Christine C. Mills (Chrism)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 10, 2002 - 1:52 pm: | |
Honestly, if my husband was routinely trashing horses for the sake of his ego, he'd be not be my husband any longer.
Sorry to be so blunt, but I expect my man to have an ounce of compassion for God's creatures, especially those in his direct service and seemingly under his protection/stewardship.
It is okay to abuse inantimate objects, such as a motorcycle as that just trashes your finances. But it is exceedingly wrong and immoral to abuse an animal for purposes of self aggrandizement.
It makes me wonder how he treats his fellow human beings, too.
Does he have a coach/trainer/teacher? If not, perhaps he should. Choose one he admires and is sensible who might show him a different way to get the most out of his horses and rides.
If I've been too harsh, I apologize to you. What you've written about him is very disturbing.
Let us know if your approach works. Or, as he is shopping around for the next made horse, call the owner on the QT and tell them the truth about his use of horses. A true horseman who put a lot of care and training in a horse would never knowingly condemn it to that kind of life. |
marci iverson (Aachen)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 10, 2002 - 4:06 pm: | |
maybe it is just a man thing because I see similar situations all the time at the barn where i am. Here we have some (not all of)the ropers who ride in the heat (like 105 degrees) bring their horses in panting and sweating, tie them up like that, and walk away to get a beer. They ten sit down at the end of the aisle drinking for the next hour while their horse is panting and sweating up a storm. Unbelievable. |
Jackie Dayman (Becky)
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 10, 2002 - 6:23 pm: | |
It sounds like your husband rides a horse like a lot of people drive all terrain vehicles - full out. If he doesn't listen to you, he sure won't listen to a bunch of strangers(all of us posting here).
Unless you control the horse budget, you don't have a lot of options. But think of what you'd do to a child who acted the same way. It doesn't sound like you're getting much pleasure out of the roping experience and if that's the case, why don't you stop participating and do something else.
And yes, for the record I agree, its hard on a horse to run them all the time with no warm up or cool down. You may want to look at human interval training to understand that he could actually make his horse faster by doing some slow work. Even sprinters don't go fast all the time.
Good luck. |
Penner (Penner)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 2, 2002 - 1:02 am: | |
No luck so far... & never any show of affection to the horse (oh, a pat once in a while..)
Its pretty depressing. |
Jennifer B. Proctor (Proctor)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 4, 2002 - 10:03 am: | |
Maybe the easiest way to work on this problem is to relate this fact to him. If he is handling the steers in this manner, his heelers will not catch consistently, and he will not win.
I am a header and I pride myself on my handles. Not only will my heelers consistently catch, but my heading horses take very little "hit" on the corner and therefore will remain sound.
If he is not scoring his horse, the horse will eventually respond only to the gate opening, not his hand or leg cue to leave the box. Again, this will mean breaking out, and he will NOT win.
Always warm up your head horse with easy loping circles to the RIGHT. Everything in team roping is to the left. Balance him and soften his neck and shoulder by a great deal of work on the right lead.
Isn't it cool that all the things it takes to win are the things that are better for the horse?
Phrase it in this way instead of just telling him he is doing wrong may go over better, and he will see dramatic improvements in horse health and winning performances.
If not, have him come to Georgia. I'd be glad to take his money at the next roping. |
Nancy E. Hodges (Redwood)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 4, 2002 - 2:18 pm: | |
I don't think there's much you can do with a fellow that just doesn't get it. He's obviously not the type of person that's going to listen to anyone else, especially you. There has to be some crisis in a person's life in order to have the insight and motivation to change their behavior. He has to see the need to change.
Do you compete at the same events? Since you're both headers, I assume you do not compete together as a team. If you are in the same event, do you place higher than your husband? You could put all your effort into being so good that you win a lot. You could maybe train and compete on HIS horse and win. Maybe after seeing you beat him in every event for a year or two he'll see the light. Then maybe not.... Maybe you'd even let him be your heeler. Maybe you could just say, "Do you want to win, or do you want to trash horses?" (and say no more).
Nancy |
Lisa Brand (Trouble)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 5, 2002 - 1:25 pm: | |
I don't know a whole lot about penning, but it seems as though your husband is so competitive that he puts his needs before the horse.
Are there any penning workshops or clinics that you could go to together away from his buddies or peers? Maybe a "vacation" or something like that.
I was thinking maybe if he could be in more relaxed atmosphere where EVERYONE is learning from someone highly respected (so as not to make him look like a "dummy") and where he could just have fun on his horse without having to prove anything might make him more receptive.
Good Luck. |
Phillip Adams
New Member
Username: Philaz
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 9, 2002 - 2:42 pm: | |
Hello everyone. Let me introduce myself. I am Penner’s husband, the subject of this discussion. Let me start by saying that the purpose of my post is NOT to start a flame war. I simply want to explain things from my perspective. I think this is a great website, I actually originally told my wife about it. In fact I just subscribed individually myself, so that I can make full use of the site without interfering with her. I apologize for the length of this post, but I only want to improve my relationship with my horses, and my wife!
We have have a roping arena on our property, and we had 6 steers we leased last year. We bought our place two years ago. The roping season in AZ is big from October through April. As we are new to roping, we did not really know any other ropers, so from October through about February, we practiced in our arena maybe once a week if we were lucky, just the two of us. We were both heading so we never turned any steers, just steer stopped . We went to a few practices at other arenas where we got a chance to turn the steer. Over the entire last winter, I went to four round robin jackpots. Other than that we trail rode.
In about March, we met a few other ropers that we became friends with, so in March and April we increased our roping proactice to 2-3 times a week. There was probably one week where we roped 4 times. I admit that it was fun to finally have someone else to rope with and I got roping “fever” and did over do it somewhat.
I do believe in warm up and cool down of a horse before and after working him. I also believe that you need to do things slow, especially as a beginner. We had one steer that was very fast, and many times I scored him, because I just couldn’t catch him. But a few times for fun and challenge I tried to catch him.
My horse is very good at what he does, but I also realize that the rider still is the one that SHOULD be in control. Unfortunately, I got my horse to ducking out and going too fast after the catching the steer and I was having some trouble keeping him from doing this. There are a lot of things to think about when you are roping. In perspective, I would agree that I got wrapped up in the fun and excitement of the sport and overdid it during those two months.
I have owned my current horse for about two years. His right hind foot has always been larger and harder in the fetlock area than the left hind foot. At rest, he always has tended to put his weight on the left foot, cocking the right hind foot in a relaxed position. Since he never seemed off, I did not think there was much to worry about. At the end of May, my shoer came out the day after I had roped and he noted that his right hind fetlock joint area was more swollen than usual. I had the vet out to examine the foot.
The vet noted thickening of the annular ligament and suggested surgery to transect it to relieve the pressure. I had the surgery done in July. Here is my vet’s statement on what was found. “Stormy has had his annular ligament on his right rear leg transected. The digital sheath was examined and lavaged via tenoscopy. Only a few adhesions were noted and no tendon pathology was noted. The prognosis for return to function after this procedure is good.” My vet also noted that the injury showed indications of not being completely new.
I have followed my vet’s instructions for recovery and I am back to riding him again. His right hind foot will always be a little larger due to the thickening of the ligament but otherwise is fine. My wife “recommended” that I switch from heading to heeling. I have agreed to do so, and I am having fun. My horse actually likes heeling and is better at it. There is less pressure for him and myself, and I am not too bad at it myself.
So what have I learned from this experience? I have learned that I need to question things more. Long before last June, I should have had my vet examine his foot. I will never know for sure if the the surgery would have been recommended earlier, or if my indifference to the problem made things bad enough to necessitate the procedure.
I never got involved with animals until I became an adult. This is not an excuse, but I know my lack of understanding that an animal can’t tell you what is wrong with him has led to do some dumb things that I won’t do again.
My wife stated that I have “gone thru” 4 horses in 10 years. The first horse, Smokey, was a strong and fun Morgan-Quarter cross. He was a ranch horse. I think he was 17 when we bought him. We did a lot of trail riding and team penned a fair amount. We roped a couple of times too. One day on a trail ride, we noticed that he was frequently urinating, only small amounts. He seemed otherwise fine. A few days later, he colic’ed very bad. By the time we found him it was already in a serious state. My vet treated him vigorously, but he was unable to recover. We had to put him down. I learned the hard way that frequent urination can be caused by abdominal irritation.
After Smokey, I bought an old rope horse named Chance. He was 15, not that old, but he had been ridden hard. He had heart, but his legs were loaded with arthritis. During the four or five years I had him, I roped a handful of times, and during the last two years I hardly rode him at all. One day the shoer came out and found that when he started to trim him, his coffin bone had rotated way down. My vet and shoer did the best they could but the rotation continued. We had to unfortunately put him down too. I can’t say I really did anything wrong with Chance. He just had too much wrong with him.
My next horse, was a five year old, with the head of a 2 year old. He had 30 days of roping on him. He was physically sound but his head was not screwed on right. From what I knew of him, the previous owner kept him in his stall most of the time. He never seemed to mature out of the young horse state. He was too small for a head horse too. The last straw was when he chewed my wife’s horse’s tail off. He was sold the next day. The mistake I made here was picking a horse that was not right for me and what I wanted to do. After having a horse who was always lame I was taken too much just by the fact that he was young and healthy.
By now you are probably thinking…typical stupid male. And after writing this, I can pretty much agree with you. That wasn’t really what I was thinking when I started out writing this. The biggest thing my wife gets mad at me about is not taking the time to learn something. I guess you can see that I have only learned some pretty important things by doing the wrong thing first.
Well anyway, that’s why I am here on this website. Hopefully I can learn a lot more and maybe help someone else from making some of the mistakes I have made.
Happy Holidays Everyone!
Phil
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Holly Edwards
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 204
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 9, 2002 - 4:39 pm: | |
Thanks for sharing, Phil. I always enjoy Penner's posts. Isn't writing a great therapy? Really helps us think things through. Thank you for your honesty. Good horsemanship is learned over time and with experience . . . . .and we're all always learning . . . . as long as we realize we'll never know it all, there's hope for us and for our horses.
Blessed Christmas to you and your family.
Holly |
Dawn Friesen
Member
Username: Dartanyn
Post Number: 113
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 9, 2002 - 6:13 pm: | |
What a wonderful post Phil. I have an engineer for a husband and getting around to "doing things" is a slow process as he thinks things through from many different angles before he acts. So for those of us who are in a hurry, quick-minded, or more forwardly inclined he can feel like a damper on our spirit at times. None-the-less; the benefit to me is in the balancing of the 2 of us! My zeal and fervor matched against his calculating thought can come up with PERFECT solutions to our endeavors. Now, that is about 20% of the time, the rest is like the ocean for ups and downs, power and pitch, hit and miss - I wouldn't trade it, and I love the challenge of learning to work with it to be the best of our marital abilities! Best to you too on that count, and to Penner! Dawn  |
Nancy Reynolds Kiester
Member
Username: Albionsh
Post Number: 24
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, Dec 9, 2002 - 11:17 pm: | |
Welcome to this list, Phil. I appreciate hearing your side of the story! Usually the truth lies somewhere between the extremes of the two perceptions....I also appreciate the interest you show in horses--wish my husband would show even 1/4 as much. It is good to see that you are learning from your experiences. We have all fallen in love with a horse that isn't really "perfect" for our needs, but the learning experience is in what we do about the situation once we realize our mistake. Some times I find that either the horse or even myself can undergo "retraining", but sometimes it is better to cut the loss and move on to a more suitable mount. Thanks again for "your side"
Nancy |
Christine C. Mills in NC
Member
Username: Chrism
Post Number: 865
Registered: 4-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 - 5:02 pm: | |
Welcome "Mr. Penner." Good for you for checking in.
I've found the horses always have something to teach us about ourselves and them. This is a great site to learn.
I've also found there are usually two sides to every story, just like there are two sides to every fence. It is good to read yours!
You might enjoy getting your hands on one of Mark Rashid's books - A Good Horse is Never a Bad Color, etc. They are well written and from a man's perspective and while are stories have a lot to teach.
Cheers. |
Phillip Adams
Member
Username: Philaz
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 - 5:36 pm: | |
Hi All.
Thanks for all your encouraging words. I want to make sure that "Penner" knows, as well as all of you, that I feel pretty darn lucky to have her as my wife. She is not only a great horsewoman, but a wonderful and caring person. I want to apologize to her for not paying more attention to the wealth of knowledge she has to offer. Looking back, I can see how frustrating I must be to deal with at times!
Phil |
Holly Edwards
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 206
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 - 8:59 pm: | |
Hey, Phil, Are you for real? :-) If you are genuine, then I'd say that Penner is darned lucky to have you, too. I guess you are both blessed by having eachother. Best of all good things to the both of you and to your horses!
Holly |
barbara c
Member
Username: Oscarvv
Post Number: 505
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 - 7:14 am: | |
Hi, Phil and welcome. We aren't much for flaming here. We can disagree and be civil too. ;) Now I am not going to give you as big a pat on the back as everyone else just because I am still concerned about what Penner has posted.
I must say when I read Penner's post I was really saddened by the workload she said you gave your horses and what sounded like a lack of regard for the well being of your mount.
I understand now that you had some older horses etc... My question to you is did/do you run them as hard and frequently as Penner posted?? I am not trying to be mean but it sounds like you ride without regard to the horse.
It sounds like you are trying to learn and that's what is most important.
Hope I didn't come down too hard...just trying to get the whole story.
~Barbara
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Phillip Adams
Member
Username: Philaz
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 - 9:54 am: | |
Hi Barbara,
In the case of my current horse and the episode last spring I will definitely say I ran him too hard. I haven't totally faced up to this, but the facts are there so I am not going to deny it to myself anymore. This is the has been the first time I have gotten into something really competitive with horses, so I would not say I overworked the previous three horses I have owned.
However, what I think prompted Gloria to write this post in frustration was the fact that I continually have not made use of the knowledge she has given me in addition to my own knowledge that I have acquired during over fifteen years of being around horses.
When you are around your horse every day, you get used to his every move, almost subconciously, just through repitition. So one day, your leading him out of his stall and you detect an ever so slight hitch in his step. This should immediately raise a red flag in your mind, and get you to determine the cause. Was it a rock he stumbled over, or is there an abcess brewing in his foot?
Without getting too much into psychoanalysis, I can identify two things (at least) that I am doing wrong. The first is not trusting my own knowledge and the second is trying to wish things away by ignoring them. Now I am not the kind of guy who thinks of his horse as a machine, and doesn't care what happens to him. But in reality if the outcome is the same for the horse, I am just as guilty as he is. I have battled with coming to grips with this because I did not feel I was uncaring etc, but the horse doesn't know this.
With my previous horses, I didn't run them too hard, but I ignored critical health signs they were showing or asked them to do something they were not suited for because they were not suited for the job.
So the bottom line is I need to try a whole more to be observant and question things going on with my horse. I also need to trust my own knowledge and seek more rather than wishing problems away.
Thanks for provoking me to think some more |
barbara c
Member
Username: Oscarvv
Post Number: 506
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 - 5:07 pm: | |
Dear Phillip
Thanks so much for responding...I appreciate your honesty and wish you, Gloria and your horses all the best.
~Barbara |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 266
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 13, 2002 - 1:28 pm: | |
Phillip
I think your posts are really interesting and I would like to ask your advice on something. My partner Paul (who is also a think first, do it later engineer, Dawn...) is not particularly interested in the horses we look after (two of mine, two of the guy who owns the land)
However, he has decided he wants to learn the basics of how to catch them, feed them etc. to help me when I have to travel to mainland Europe for work so that I don't have to impose on friends for help (we live in a very rural area, it's quite a hassle asking people to come over).
He says, quite sensibly in my view, that he wants someone else to teach him this as otherwise it's like husbands teaching wives to drive etc. and will end in tears and arguments.
Phillip, what do you think is the best approach for learning this kind of thing from a man's point of view? I have a good friend who could teach him but her horses are very quiet and she only has tiny paddocks so I'm not sure how much he'd learn though it would give him more confidence (he is small, about 5 ft 3 inches, and all the horses are big, 16h2 and above, we have big fields and the horses are mostly quite silly thoroughbred or eventing types).
I am just asking for a bit of info about how you learned 15 years ago and anything you'd have done different, and whether you think men learn differently to women about horses.
All the best
Imogen |
Phillip Adams
Member
Username: Philaz
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 14, 2002 - 1:52 pm: | |
Hi Imogen,
My first experience with horses was when I first started dating Gloria. Gloria wanted me to like horses and not be afraid of them so she was very careful to make sure that the horse I was with was calm and safe. Since I liked Gloria a lot and wanted to build our relationship, I think I put more effort into not letting my male ego get in the way of learning.
But I think men do tend think they can figure things out themselves once they learn a few basics. This can be dangerous when you try to oversimplify things. I know that more than a few times I thought the way I was doing something was the right way and Gloria disagreed. So we have had our share of arguments in this area.
I think it would be a good idea for Paul to spend time with your friend and her horses to learn some the basics. This is for a couple of reasons. The first I think is safety. If her horses are more quiet than yours than this would be a great way to get comforatble with horses. Paul may not say it, but I am sure there is some level of fear in him of horses. He will be able to overcome his fears sooner with a calm horse so that he can concentrate on learning horse care better. Hopefully your friend can introduce more challenges, such as catching the horse in an arena, as he gets better.
I think there will definitely less stress on your relationship by having your friend teach Paul. When he does get to the point of being able to work with your horses he may feel better about going to your friend for help should a situation arise while you are gone that is beyond what he can handle. This could keep Paul and your horses from getting hurt.
I hope this helps!
Phil
|
Lorrie Hutchens-Grover
Member
Username: Lorrieg
Post Number: 49
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 5:12 pm: | |
Hi Everyone,
This is continuing a very old thread about roping horses, but, I was hoping to get some input from those of you out there that are knowledgeable and that keep the horses welfare in mind.
Are tiedowns absolutely necessary for roping and barrel racing and if so why?
Are there any ropers or barrel racers out there that run without tiedowns and if so what are your thoughts or comments?
Thanks,
Lorrie |
Aleta Overby
Member
Username: Aletao
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 5:49 pm: | |
I am not versed in barrel racing or roping, but just listened to a top barrel racer from our area (one of the top few in the country consistently). She said that she feels that a tie-down is not necessary, and her opinion is that it's a "cheap fix." Hope this helps. |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 546
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 6:14 pm: | |
If a horse is taught to give its nose down to light pressure, a tie-down is not necessary. I agree with Aleta's post. Check out any of John Lyons's or Clinton Anderson's methods on teaching a horse to be light to rein pressure. The training takes time (more or less, depending upon the horse and upon the teacher's ability to reward correct responses consistently and immediately), but it is SOOOOOO worth it whether you are working in speed events or just poking along down the trail. |
Barbara E Long
Member
Username: Longride
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 6:16 pm: | |
Phillip - reading as a way to learn is not for everyone, but there is a book out called Conditioning the Sport Horse by Hilary Clayton that goes in to how to condition horses for the specific sport they are used for. I hope to be able to use it as a text and offer a continuing ed course at Wilkes CC on just this subject. The knowledge you gain by knowing how muscles work and how they break down is essential in high speed sports like cutting and roping. PM me if you would like more info. |
Lorrie Hutchens-Grover
Member
Username: Lorrieg
Post Number: 50
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 8:59 pm: | |
Thanks Aleta & Holly,
I too think that tiedowns are a cheap fix and would never ride with one. All of the horses that I work with are taught to give to the slightest pressure whether by touching the poll or nose or whatever body part I want to move.
The reason that I ask is because I am working with a very open minded ropers horse using "natural horsemanship methods" and yes Holly it does take longer but the results are sooo worth it.
He's happy, the horse is happy, I'm just wondering if I can find some ropers out there who don't use tiedowns (which only teach a horse to push into pressure)to help to convince this individual that he can rope without one.
So all you ropers out there, let me know what your thoughts are!
Thanks,
Lorrie |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 592
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 9:51 am: | |
Hi, all,
Is the tiedown you are talking about a standing (fixed) martingale? Do you attach it to the bit or to the noseband? |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 547
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 11:34 am: | |
Noseband . . . never seen one attached to a bit(ouch) |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 593
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 1:33 pm: | |
Thanks, Holly.
You're right, attaching it to the bit is cruel, but I've seen people do it. They say the horse "goes" better. Go figure.
Lorrie, a tiedown from breastplate to noseband is not a fix for a horse that pulls on the reins and it will not teach a horse to give to pressure. It will very likely teach an untrained horse to lean against pressure. It is not a training tool.
But on an already well trained horse, a tiedown serves well a couple of purposes.
In very tight, irregular maneuvers like in polo, roping or battle reenactment, where you need your hands free and your mind on the game, the horse occasionally and unexpectedly needs a fifth "leg" as a balance aid, and that's where a tiedown comes handy. Supporting him in the mouth with the reins is incorrect, if at all possible under the circumstances.
Also, should the horse stumble in very fast work, you'll need to catch him in the mouth to support his head or risk a tumble. A standing martingale is better, isn't it?
I would actually suggest a standing martingale for every well trained horse in fast work if full neck extension is not necessary as in jumping or racing.
All the best,
Christos |
Lorrie Hutchens-Grover
Member
Username: Lorrieg
Post Number: 51
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 2:54 pm: | |
Hi Christos,
I think you may have misread my second post, I DO
NOT use tiedowns and agree that they only teach a horse to lean against pressure, opposite of what I am currently teaching this horse.
In my opinion this horse needs lots of work in learning to give to pressure and working at speeds faster than a walk without becoming overly emotional as well as a list of others things such as learning lateral flexion, overall suppling, etc.
I was just hoping to convince the owner that after he learns all these things that he should continue to ride him without a tiedown, if that is possible to do with a roping horse.
Best to you,
Lorrie |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 595
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 3:23 pm: | |
Yes, Lorrie,
I understood that you don't use a tie-down. I only meant to emphasize your point by saying that it is not a cheap fix, it is no fix at all. |
Lorrie Hutchens-Grover
Member
Username: Lorrieg
Post Number: 52
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 8:26 pm: | |
Well then, right on Christos!
Lorrie |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 598
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 7:35 am: | |
I forgot to mention what is considered the main reason for a tiedown. That's to prevent the horse from shooting it's head up, hitting the rider in the face.
Now that means that the horse is poorly schooled and the rider's position is the worst it can be, so in my opinion they don't belong in fast work, but still, one sees such combinations quite often.
If that's the case, a tiedown may be mandatory to avoid a knockout.
PS: I'd still let the knockout happen if the rider's head is so thick, in hope that the brain will be knocked into proper function, but I can't suggest such things here, can I ? |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 549
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 9:32 am: | |
Of COURSE you can suggest it, if you consider such "non-training" a type of horse abuse . . . although, if such a rider DOES get hit in the face, it will more than likely result in more abuse toward the horse, in one way or another. |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 600
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 4:16 pm: | |
Yes, Holly, I believe that "racing" a horse (any discipline) before he or the rider is ready for the task is the most common form of horse abuse and one that most often goes unnoticed.
You are right, it is also my experience that people do not learn from such incidents. Unfortunately, not even from tragic accidents. It's wishful thinking that things would work that way... |
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