Site Menu:
This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below: |
HorseAdvice.com » Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Working Around Horses Safely » |
Discussion on Need restraint ideas/advice | |
Author | Message |
Member: leec |
Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 10:40 pm: Help! I need ideas on restraining my 2 yr old filly that hates needles and we have 5 more days of them to go (once/day). She was injured as a baby and had her fair share of them in the first 6 months of her life – instead of developing a tolerance for them she went completely the other way. Through de-desensitizing and with the help of my vet we finally had her just tolerating them for her annual vacs. However, she is not happy with this several days in succession again. This is her only issue - there is nothing else she won't let me do. The first day (out of 8), she was not horribly bad. Yesterday was terrible, we must have walked a hundred miles circling her paddock – in the process we bent 2 needles and DrOpped a syringe... Finally, after almost an hour, I used a chain under her top lip and we got the job done. I was happy with how well it went with the chain, that I wasn’t too concerned about tonight. For whatever reason, it did not work as well tonight; I would have thought it would be better as we started before her adrenaline was up. We did manage to get it done, but barely. I was surprised at the amount of torque I had to put on the shank to hold her. The other thing is I have not been able to alternate sides – I cannot get her to stand long enough to use the right side of her neck. I have been using different spots on the left, but I’d really like to get a couple in the other side. She is smart and I have a feeling it’ll be interesting just getting the halter on her tomorrow, never mind the chain under her lip... I probably need at least 4 more methods to keep ahead of her. I have read the articles on the site, but wondered if anyone has any other ideas – blindfold, sedate with ACE before??? I am afraid of one or both of us getting hurt and I have never had to restrain a horse with anything more than a chain over or under its nose in the past, so I am no pro at this. I also don’t have help. My husband knows nothing about horses and I would rather not involve him if possible. So far she hasn’t tried to strike at me or run me over (she did try that with the vet), she just wants to get away, but I can’t trust she’ll not do that to someone else (or even to me by the end of this...). I do have one of those twitches with the two bars that are kind of hinged together and there’s cord and a snap to clip it to the halter. I’ve never used it before – how much lip do I need to squish together, as much I can grab? How long should she be in it before I give her the shot and how much time do I have? Oh my god, this has to be the most stressful thing I’ve ever done with a horse! Already my arms are a foot longer and most of my fingers are bruised and scraped, not to mention my mental state – I feel so horrible for the poor horse that has no clue as to why someone she trusts keeps hurting her. Just makes me want to cry, cry more I should say.Lee C |
Member: 36541 |
Posted on Friday, Apr 13, 2007 - 11:31 pm: Lee, I was thinking "twitch?" pretty early into your post. I know you will find it more tolerable for everyone than the chain on the gums. You can try it a couple of times when you aren't giving the shot just to get a handle on it. You can give her a little grain, then ease her nose into your grasp. You need to get all of the rough surface, the area with the oval of feeling hairs into your hand and gently squeeze it. When you are ready to actually apply the twitch, after you've mastered handling the nose, you'll have it over your forearm ready to slide it up onto the nose. It will seat just above the thick muscular end of the nose. You hold the nose about midway down the straight legs of the twitch, NOT in the curved area. You can put a lot of pressure on if needed, but even a moderate amount seems to calm and distract most horses.I almost always have to do this alone, with tall horses, so I feel confident advising you try it. I also pinch the skin hard a few inches away from the injection site, just before putting the needle in, and I leave the syringe off until the needle is seated securely to the hub. I give a treat after the process as well. Over the years, I have had quite a few horses need 7-10 days of injections. How they handled it seemed to be both operator dependent(my calmness got better over time), and related to their overall level of tolerance for things like biting flies, loud noises, and unexpected things. My hotter types always seem to have the longer memories! Hope she gets better, try to do this in a stall where you can't have quite as much running around. I'm sure other people can offer twitching descriptions as well. maybe Dr. O. has a picture? Best wishes, hope this helps, Stacy |
Member: dres |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 12:23 am: Can you give her oral ace about 45 mins before you inject... it might take the edge off her..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Member: imogen |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 3:46 am: Why are you doing it in a paddock? I would definitely prefer a stable as safer I think Lee. Good luck, it's no fun, try to keep very calm yourself as Stacey suggests.Imogen |
Member: christel |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 8:51 am: Lee, I feel your frustration. It seems I always have 1 horse that is needle shy- I give all my own shots and like you dread it immensely.Several months ago there was an article in the Quarter Horse Journal or Americas Horse (AQHA freebie mag) that talked about using a toothpick to get the horse to lower his head when giving shots. Im sorry to be so computer illiterate (slow at that stuff) or I would look it up for you. Im sure one of the computer guru's here could find it- maybe. Of course you need to do this before you are having to give shots- you may not have the time to do this and I have to admit I haven't taken the time to try it myself. Like Stacy mentioned the calmer you are the better- but I also know its hard to be calm when you fear the horse is going to blow a gasket when you walk up with the syringe. I have also found over the years it is best to slowly but firmly insert needle, neither pinching skin close to sight or jabbing the needle in quickly- the horses seem to remain calm if I remain calm and deliberate. Ive tried the blindfold trick and that didn't work for me. I am looking forward to other responses, good topic- hopefully we'll both get help on this one. Chris |
Member: cheryl |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 9:25 am: When I give shots I use the method my Vet showed me years ago. Hold the needle between your fingers with the end pointing our from the back of your hand. Smack the spot where you are going to give the shot lightly one time - a little harder the second time - harder still the third time and on the forth downstroke insert the needle. The attach the syringe and slowly administer the medication. I've never had any problem giving shots with this method - on any of my horses.Cheryl |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 9:46 am: Please have someone with you when you are doing this. I went through what you are describing many years ago when my Arab mare foaled and never got milk in. I had to give her shots to try and get her to produce milk, and man, she hated me! It took years before I could stick a needle in her with out ME shaking. So the best advice I can give you is don't go it alone in case you get hurt. And be calm yourself. If it takes an hour to get the job done, that's better than 15 minutes of blood, sweat, tears and manure!You probably don't have time to order one, but the Stabilizer device is supposed to be great for calming a horse. Ask around if anyone has one you can borrow. |
Member: leec |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 12:26 pm: Thank you all so much for your ideas and quick responses! I have tried each of the methods of inserting the needle that have been described - same response. She moves away/forward. I'm fairly confident my method is not horribly painful, as her dam had Mastitis just after she was born and we did a stretch of them twice/day. Her dam didn't even blink when I did it and she was a fairly hot, opinionated TB. It is not such a big deal getting the needle in, it's the attaching the end of the syringe to the hub and trying to make her stay still enough to administer all 18 cc's. Every time I try to attach it she moves. I've tried resting my wrist on her neck, so as not to jiggle the needle, but it doesn't seem to matter. I've tried inserting the needle then leaving the site, feeding her treats, petting her, walking her etc. and every time I go back to 'finish' the job, she has an anxiety attack. Thank you Stacy for the info on using the twitch. I think I will try it next. She is not spooky of noises and strange objects, but is the ticklish sort. Anjie, I don't like doing it alone, but there are only a couple of experienced horse people near me that I know and their work schedule, plans, so far have not coincided with when I need their help. Truth be told, the more people, the more freaked she gets. When she was a baby at the vet clinic, she was herded into a corner by 2 or more people, so she could be caught for her injections. She worries whenever more than one person approaches her, especially when she is in her shelter. I do not have a barn or stalls. The paddock is more like a pen, maybe 20'x30'. Just the way she is and the way my place is set up, I think I'm safer in the open. She will be more scared in her shelter and I don't want get pinned against any walls. In the open I can at least get away from her if I have to. I have seen the stabilizer and had considered getting one in the past (wish I did). I looked at the design and I'm thinking I pretty much have all the materials to make something very similar. That will be my next if the twitch doesn't work. I discussed using the ACE with my vet and she said it could go either way, so be prepared. I may do a trial run to see how it affects her. Interestingly enough as soon as we're done the injection, she is her normal self, has no fear of me, no attitude, I can do whatever I want on either side of her neck, she wants scratches and follows me around... Will keep you posted on how it goes tonight!Lee C |
Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 1:14 pm: This may seem a bit controversial, but it worked for one of my boarders who had an anxiety attack when needles approached him... Carrots. lots of carrots as you're doing the deed. We don't need to give him carrots any more, just one after for being a good boy Realizing it's hard to feed carrots AND give the shot... Do you grain her? Could you give her a bucket of grain or just chopped up carrots when you need to give her a shot? Of course, every horse is different and she may not care about carrots, just throwing out my two cents |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 1:15 pm: Lee,Sometimes using Ace makes it worse...they can fight off the effects because the adrinalin is high and sort of makes the Ace less effective. I can't give you any more suggestions that the other gals gave you...but if you use a twitch, be sure to have someone very strong holding it...I have seen horses get away from it and when that 'bat' swings...watch out. I saw a kid on a farm one time using a twitch and the horse got away from him and broke his jaw with the 'bat' of the twitch. I have one of those Stabelizer halters, and actually it is sort of like using the lead shank chain under the gums, which is supposed to calm the horse...used it a few times on a mare I had that wouldn't let us trim her back feet...it did not help!! I think how well the Stabelizer works depends alot of the horse it's being used on. One thing that is good, at least, is she isn't holding a grudge and loves you again right after your battle with the needle. Good luck and be careful. |
Member: dtranch |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 1:32 pm: I assume you have her in halter and lead. Make sure you have enough room and begin your procedure. If she moves, let her escape but try to keep same relative position until she stops. When she stops, reward and stroke her, then start procedure again. After 2 or 3 escape attempts, she will probably stand while you start your procedure. Continue to try and put the syringe on and if she moves, just repeat as before. Eventually she will trust you and learn that you are not going to hurt her. It may take a while for some horses, but generally once learned, the problem does not recur.The key is to allow the escape and let stopping be her choice. Don't try to force her to stand and stop moving. This will just make her feel more trapped .. forced restraint is rarely a good idea, and is dangerous for horse and handler. The twitch and other devices will usually work for the session, but does nothing to teach them for the next time. DT |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 4:02 pm: As usual Dennis gives great advice on training for long term results. And you should do that of course.To get through the next few days though maybe try this: Are you useing the chain under lip with you on the other end of it? Or are you hooking the chain to her halter, on the ring up high? Then adjust it so you hook it again on the other side of the halter. Experiment with how tight you want it. I tried making a home made stabilizer thingy and ended up doing this instead. In fact, I used a soft rope instead. The chain is so harsh, I see no reason the tee off the poor frightened horse any more. By using a rope, think it was clothes line in fact, I made different loops on the one end. Then I used 2, double sided hooks. One on one end that stayed there, the other one to slowly adjust the tightness. And lots, and lots of playing around with the lips, the gums, nostrils. The key is to get the horse (and you) really relaxed. Some horses like being rubbed inside their ears too. That spot between the eyes. Make it a "feel good time" for her. Maybe the tooth pick idea would work while she is relaxed? Just to let her know it's part of the feel good experience. If you've hit the spots that are the "magical feel good points" she won't notice the needle even. I used to have a dental guy who would put a horse to sleep just rubbing on the right spots! Amazing. Just remember the rope isn't there forever. Tighten slowly, release, rub, massage, repeat. And don't be anxious yourself. NADDA even a little teeny bit. I know, I know...hard to relax, especially with a huge animal, and a needle in your hand! |
Member: jd1947 |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 5:47 pm: Dennis & Angie have given excellent advice...that toothpick idea is very good....and Denny is always right on track!!Lee...keep us posted. |
Member: leec |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 9:10 pm: Well, I researched horse restraint all day today and read all of your replies over and over, as well as anything else related on HA. As a result my plan changed from this morning. It kept coming up that an improperly applied twitch is as bad (or potentially worse), than none at all. Since I had never used one and had no clue as to what her reaction might be, I decided to stick with what has kind of worked so far. I asked myself, why I happen to have the ACE and it is opened. I went back in my horse ‘diary’ and saw that I had purchased it because we were going to trailer this filly at one point over a year ago, but were not confident her injured leg was completely healed. We were going to use the ACE to try and keep her as quiet as possible for the loading/trailering process. Anyway, we did not end up trailering her, but I did do a trial a few days before then said hauling day. I put it in her grain and with an hour she was snoozing and very quiet. So, I thought lets start there. I gave her the max amount of ACE for her weight in her grain. While she was eating her nummers, I fashioned a stabilizer similar to what Angie described, since I too hate using the chain. After 45 minutes (bang on with the time, Ann!), I went over the plan with my husband. By then Sienna was looking calm and snoozey. We petted her and rubbed while I haltered her and set up my stabilizer, which she really took no offense to. Jim’s job was to operate the stabilizer, while I operated the needle. We got it done in less than 10 minutes and she took maybe 20 steps AND I finally got to use the right side! Whew! We showered her in kisses and hugs, petting, treats and we mutual groomed – I don’t normally allow her to groom me, but I was just so happy with her! I will not allow myself to believe it will go as well tomorrow, so I will bring all other tools with me for backup – so keep the ideas rolling! I do realize none of this is a long term solution, but to be honest we have been de-sensitizing since we knew there was an issue over a year ago. Every time I handle her, which is at least twice/day, neck pokes with various pokey things, assuming the position of giving the needle, holding a syringe and pretending. None of that fazes her – she knows real from pretend. I am calm while doing this, I am aware of my voice and mannerisms and try to act as I would any other time I handle her. My husband was calm – he knows almost nothing about horses, so he has kind of that 'ignorance is bliss' thing going on. I just had to make sure he stayed positioned in a safe place and moved with us, applying and releasing pressure as needed. If she is as good tomorrow, I was going to reduce the ACE each day after if she remains good. My vet said the ACE is fine to use with the antibiotic we’re using, but Dr. O, does that mean it is safe to use for 4 more times if needed? Will let you all know what happens with tomorrow’s treatment... Thank you all again – I think I needed the moral support as much as anything else!Lee C |
Member: alden |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 10:45 pm: I too have a mare that was know for tearing the barn down when it came to shots, we'd gone through all the restraint methods, then we moved here to Colorado.I warned the new vet, laid out all the horror stories, and was ready for the fight. He walked up to her, talked a moment while rubbing her neck, slipped the needle in, checked for blood and finished the injection. The horse didn't move a muscle! Needless to say after I finished picking up my jaw I wanted to know his trick. I had never seen a horse injected that the person didn't slap the needle in. He said it's no trick really,he'd always been interested in alternate medicines, ying and yang and a lot of stuff I don't know anything about. But the long of it is he approaches with a clear mind, settles the horse and very gently inserts the needle. He says it's extremely rare that a horse fights him. I try and mimic him and have had good luck, I always insert the needle gentle and slow, syringe attached, and seldom have any reaction from the horse. I'd never thought about it much until I saw it my vet's way, but what would you're reaction be if on you're next hospital visit the nurse hauled off and slapped you with a needle? I'll bet. Good day, Alden |
Member: alden |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 10:57 pm: If training and proper handling fail, or more likely there isn't sufficient time. I'd much rather use a chute type restrain over twitching or chains.This one looks pretty good, originally posted by Stacie in another thread. https://www.kbrhorse.net/tra/hchute01.html Good day, Alden |
Member: mitma |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 1:33 am: Lee (and Dr. O),I'm going out on a limb here, but I am curious... In adult humans with needle phobia or children who need painful things done to them, we often use a topical local anesthetic mixture, EMLA cream, which is a mixture of lidocaine and prilocaine. It is applied topically about 30 - 60 minutes before "doing" the thing that is painful, either an IV or a spinal needle, etc... Has anyone had any experience with this in horses??? It seems like for a horse who needs some extended therapy with injections, this would be a nice way to NOT cause them pain and hopefully not sensitize them to needles. The cream only works on the skin, not the deep tissues, but the skin is where most of the "pain" nerve endings are located anyway... Good Luck Lee!!! Martha P.S., Stacy, do you use EMLA in your practice??? Have you ever brought some home for your horses??? |
Member: imogen |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 4:39 am: I used to have a mare that had to be sedated sometimes to be shod, requiring IV injection. One "mature" cattle vet who also does horses in the area was only fantastic at it - very much the same approach as Alden's vet described above. Just years of experience and total confidence in what he was doing... always knew exactly where the vein was, acted positively but slowly and gently, and got the needle in the vein first time without surprising the horse, no issue...Well worth every call-out fee... and I am also all in favour of the old fashioned "broom handle and string" twitches, they work and you can operate them with one hand or between your knees while doing the injection which you cannot with the "nutcracker" metal ones. Imogen |
Member: christel |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 9:00 am: Alden, I have observed the same thing with vets and vet techs- it seems their calmness and demeanor right before a shot is what does it. They just walk up to the horse and give the shot- period, end of story.I have one more vaccine to give my horses this season, I am going to try the 'Dennis' method with the 2 yr old gelding that gives me fits now- in the past have been successful using Dennis' method partly- I didn't do much praising in the past as I was mad he wouldn't stand still- I will try more patience on this next one. I think using a twitch will make a horse 'twitch shy'- the smart ones figure it out and make it awful hard to get a twitch on the next time you want to use it. And they can be very dangerous if a horse pulls away and starts slinging the twitch around. On using Ace- I had a farrier years ago that would use Ace on the young horses that gave the slightest bit of trouble- I frowned on it at the time, but usually he only had to use it once- the horses were always better the next time he came and he didn't have to use the Ace. Hopefully Lee after having to use the Ace yesterday, your horse will be better today. Hoping it is getting easier. Chris |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 9:35 am: Concerning the twitch, yes just about as much lip as you can get in the twitch and you apply it right before you are going to give an injection. When I have a horse that is terribly needle shy I adapt the method described at Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses. It takes a little bit of time but can result in a horse very easy to inject.DrO |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 10:06 am: Alden,You are absolutely right! Watch a little kid about to get a shot: they are screaming and squirming (some of them anyhow) before the needle gets close. What works better? A nurse grabbing the kids arm, a stern "hold still or else" and WAM, or a nurse who just chats calmly, distracts the child with something like a cute fluffy stuffed toy? After 13 years I still have to be careful that my state of mind and body is calm to inject my one mare. She gets wide eyed hearing the syring opened, same with wormer. Just being matter-of-fact makes so much difference. |
Member: dres |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 11:07 am: I had a two year old that I asked for help on this board, she was out of control, rearing running over the top of me.. just plain not halter broke.. giving her injections and worming was awful, I knew she would kill me.. been slammed into the stall walls etc.. Well I started learning/ observing some of the NH clinics, and found out what Dennis says to be very true.. give them an escape door.. In dealing with this filly now 6, I had her in the stall with halter and rope and we just walked around and around and around with my hand at her neck or mouth depending on what I was doing at that time.. never tried to stop her feet from moving but kept at her side.. she would stop.. I would DrOp my hands..After a bit I would put my hand up in place and she no longer moved her feet.. !!!~ Shot was given.. carrots were given.. and tons of love... Fast foreword to now.. We don't even have to halter this mare.. I am giving her the Adequan 7 shot series now a shot every 4 days for 7 weeks.. no halter nothing.. she IS SO GOOD about it all now..Who says you can't teach an old dog * me * new tricks.. I don't do any one NH but apply what I have learned to my needs.. Ace I use orally on my rehabbing filly.. she is NOT suppose to be moving her feet at all !~ <smirk> when she is rehabbed , I will have to start with her lessons too !~ On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: lloyd |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 5:30 pm: I would suggest ACE as it is good for blood flow as well or if you want an all natural product you might try CHILL.Lloyd |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 7:34 am: One correction to above is Ace should not be looked as an agent that generally promotes blood flow. It is a peripheral vasodilator, which means it will increase the diameter of some of the blood vessels and may help flow to some tissues, but the cost is an overall decrease in blood pressure, so robs the circulation elsewhere particularly the nervous system and possibly the bowel. For more on this see the article on acepromazine.DrO |
Member: leec |
Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 9:50 am: Dr. O, I had to use the ACE again last night to get the job done. I did read your article, in your opinion am I seriously compromising my horses health if I have to use the ACE for 5 days straight at the max dose?Thanx, Lee C |
Member: dres |
Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 10:27 am: Lee I am not Dr. O , but can tell you I used ace on my rehabbing filly daily for 10 days with no ill effects... and I was using up to 5 cc's at a time..good luck.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: lloyd |
Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 12:36 pm: You don't need to abuse ACE, it is a very good product if you use it with common sense. I use it for relaxing a tying up horse before and after training, 1 to 1.5 cc and for increasing the blood flow to the feet.Ace, is the only product I have found that is proven to help increase the circulation and help you with your overall foot care plan. |
Member: leec |
Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 5:39 pm: Thank you Ann & Lloyd for the reassurance. I also managed to speak to my vet today re: time on it and dosage and she assured me that it's all okay.Lee C |
Member: pattyb |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 1:41 pm: Dr.O, I hope it is ok for me to comment to this thread but I thought that since people bring it up to read, I really felt that I needed to add this:From other threads on this forum, some are aware that I am facing a similar problem right now with my Arab/Paint gelding and I wanted to comment here about twitches, particularly the ole baseball bat with chain type. Twice recently it was used on my horse as a last resort but I can say without a doubt, you won't get it on without a fight next time. What I really wanted to add here, for those who read this thread though, is that twitches, though useful in a pinch, I would keep it as a method of last resort because: When I was a teenager working at a riding stables, the owner twitched a horse to shave his ears and she had me hold the twitch. What she forgot to tell me was to NOT stand in front of the horse while holding it. I was just a kid doing what she said....and that was the last thing I remembered. From what I was told, the horse put his head down, then reared up. On the upswing, the twitch flew out of my hand and slammed right into my face. The next thing I knew, I was 10 feet away on the ground and came up screaming while I was spitting blood everywhere. My braces were a blessing and a curse that day, saved my front teeth but split my lip right open....and that's not to mention my nose and glasses. My plan for this horse is to try the old bowl of sweet feed and practise syringes in hopes of not needing a twitch come Spring shots....and maybe some oral ace for the first time or two. I'll do anything to help the horse learn but want to be safe at the same time. Like I said, the twitch needs to be the method of last resort....I have learned the hard way that they don't help the learning process and can be dangerous for anyone within striking distance....my injuries were bad enough to keep me out of school for an entire week. |
Member: annimule |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2008 - 6:21 pm: This thread on giving injections is very interesting to me. I run a donkey and mule rescue. I have to deal with animals who's history is unknown sometimes. Some have had lots of handling, some not so much.I am a clicker trainer. I have not have it fail me yet. I teach the animals to target (touch) my hand when they come in to the rescue. They learn that when they touch my hand with their nose, I make a sound to mark the behavior (tongue cluck), then reward the behavior with a treat. Food treats work the fastest in the beginning. Behaviors that are rewarded will be repeated. This works for just about any behavior you can think of. To give injections, start with your finger and put pressure on the spot you will inject, click,remove pressure, and treat. Do that for a ten minute session. Come back later and do that again for a few minutes then take a syringe with the cap on the needle and gently place it on the animal's neck, click, remove it, treat. Next session make the pressure a little harder. Keep this up until your animal is no longer reacting to the pressure of the needle (with cap on) on the skin. Then you can take the cap off and lightly touch the skin with the needle, click, remove pressure, treat, etc. Then actually injecting the animal will not be a problem. I see people get into trouble when they try to rush the process. It takes as long as it takes. <g> Don't move on to another step till animal is not reacting to the step you are working on. I am happy to help anyone who would like it. Feel free to email me privately. annimule@dishmail.net. Ann Ann W. Firestone, President Save Your Ass Long Ear Rescue at Broomtail Farm 23 Saw Mill Road South Acworth, NH 03607 www.saveyourassrescue.org |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 8:23 am: PattyB it is always in place to remind folks about the real dangers of handling horses. For more on the risks and benefits on using a twitch and how to apply it see the article associated with this discussion Working Around Horses Safely.Ann can you expound a bit on the pairing of a click with a reward that is the foundation of later behavior modification using clicker training. DrO |
Member: annimule |
Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 12:03 pm: Hi Dr. O, I'm happy to expound! LOL! The "click" can be any sound, a whistle is used in marine mammal training, a "clicker" is used a lot in the dog training world, I use a tongue cluck. The "sound" is a marker, just information to the animal. It's not praise. When paired with a reward (anything the subject deems rewarding) it lets the animal know "that's it!" and a reward is coming. The timing of the click is critical, as this is telling the animal just what it did that made you so happy. Think of taking a picture of the desired behavior. You would click when you would press the shutter release on the camera. The science says that "behaviors that are rewarded will be repeated" ( you go to work, get a paycheck, go back again) My original experience with the clicker is that of a dog trainer, but have found that equines take to clicker training very well.An easy behavior to teach is to have an animal target, or touch, an object. Take a small cone and hold it in front of your equid. They are curious and will most likely touch it with their nose, CLICK, put object behind your back, treat. Represent, and repeat about 15 times. Then hold cone out and see if animal "tries" to touch it. If they do, they've gotten it! Once you have the desired behavior, you give it a name. I call it "touch". You then say "touch" as the animal touches, and once s/he understands you only reward the behavior if you have asked for it. One fun side effect of clicker training is that your animals will start offering behaviors, trying to get a click! If you like the behavior, click it! Once an animal has become clicker savvy you can use it in as many ways as you can think of. I use it to teach animals to lead...touch my hand, touch my hand as it moves, touch my hand as my whole body moves. Touch the toy hanging from a rope. You can build up duration as well, so if you have to do something your animal isnt nuts about you can teach him to target an object for longer and longer periods of time, so the animal is eventually keeping a body part glued to the object. There is so much more but I will stop before boring everyone to tears. Alexandra Kurland has written great books, Clicker Training Your Horse is one of them, she has videos as well. If anyone is interested check out her website. Ann Ann W. Firestone, President Save Your Ass Long Ear Rescue at Broomtail Farm 23 Saw Mill Road South Acworth, NH 0307 www.saveyourassrescue.org |
Member: rtrotter |
Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 2:03 pm: Ann,I taught my horse how to load on a trailer using clicker training. (Alexandra Kurland) I also taught him to free lunge in a huge paddock and reverse direction. The trailer loading was the best because he was very, very fearful of anything black that was on the floor, so the black mats in the trailer were exceedingly scary. I taught him to touch a variety of things a fly spray bottle, the tip of a whip, a tiny cone and he got clicked with a clicker or a cluck and rewarded with a handful of feed. When he learned to touch the small cones I put him in the paddock and put the cones in a zig zag line, and he went from one to the other touching for his treat. Then I took several large scary plastic bags and put them on the ground with landscape ties on both sides and wide enough to simulate the ramp into the trailer ( he freaked at first) but once I put the cones on the plastic it wasn't more than 20 minutes before he was walking over the plastic touching the cones to get his treat and not freaking at all. From there it was putting the cones on the ramp into the trailer and then putting them in the trailer it self. He basically learned to load himself once he realized A: those black mats weren't scary demons and B: He got a click and a reward for doing it right. We did a lot of stall clicker training, so that he really got it by the time we went out into the paddock for the trailer training. Rachelle |
Member: annaspop |
Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 2:16 pm: The one thing to remember about this type of training, is that ....the first behavior that you shape (teach) is their fall back behavior. MAKE SURE that this is something that you don't mind your animal doing this when it wants to beg. My dog, Annabelle, was taught to wave... My next will be taught the same. My pony, Bobby, was taught carrot stretches... so... sometimes I have a pony putting his muzzle in the way when grooming, tacking up and then the vet is listening with a stethoscope. My next equine will learn to DrOp its down to waist level. I don't think that will be to much of a problem.Margy |
Member: annimule |
Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 4:53 pm: Good work Rachelle. Isn't it fun? I love it and think the animals do too. Alex is my guru. I agree with what Margy says too. Remember; you get what you click! Head down is a helpful behavior to teach.Have fun with the clicker! Ann Ann W. Firestone, President Save Your Ass Long Ear Rescue at Broomtail Farm 23 Saw Mill Road South Acworth, NH 03607 www.saveyourassrescue.org |
Member: rtrotter |
Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2008 - 5:29 pm: Ann,I taught him that behavior while doing the clicker training in the stall. This horse flight mechanism was highly sensitive. He would get scared and do really stupid things. He once ran me into a door frame while freaking out in the blacksmith shop and put me in the hospital with 4 broken ribs ( Ouch, it hurts just to think about that)! I am not sure where I heard it but I think its true that if you watch a horse out in the pasture when their head is down and they are grazing they are very relaxed ( left brain) when they get scared they raise their heads up and the flight or fight mechanism kicks in. My horse was very right brained about everything he did, so teaching him to put his head down and relax was not an easy chore. But even so, it still only took him a short while to figure out that when I put my hand on his poll that he should put his head down. I eventually got his head down to the ground and I did not even have to touch him, they learn really fast. Rachelle |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 7:58 am: Ann,What if I click and don't have a treat? Do you at some point wean off the treats? I'd like to try this with mr oversensitive, Tango. |
Member: annimule |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2008 - 8:44 am: Hi Angie, Sorry that I didnt get into that stage of the training. Once you have a behavior on cue, or the animal is responding reliably to your request for the behavior, you go from what has been a continuous schedule of reinforcement (click and treat every time) to a variable schedule of reinforcement, click and treat randomly. If you click you treat...always. So you will click the first time you ask for, and get a behavior, then you click the third time, the fifth time, the second time and the third time. We humans have a hard time with that as a rule. We will click every third time repeatedly rather than shaking it up. Once you are on a variable schedule of reinforcement, you very gradually wean off the clicker. I still use it for special requests, or if my animal does something that really pleases me. I like to keep clicking randomly as it really helps to keep the animal in the game, if you will. You will have a very willing partner! The animals love it as much as we do. I had been using the clicker in my dog training classes for a while before DUH! I tried it after a trailer accident with my mule. It took me only 4 days of three 20 minute sessions a day to get my mule, who would go whale eye and snorty at ten feet from the trailer to calmly walking in, standing, and walking out. I took him for a ride and he was fine! That sold me on this method of training, which is called operant conditioning, for ever.Again , I welcome questions so please feel free to email me privately at annimule@dishmail.net Ann Ann W. Firestone, President Save Your Ass Long Ear Rescue at Broomtail Farm 23 Saw Mill Road South Acworth, NH 03607 www.saveyourassrescue.org |