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HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Beginning Lateral Movements » Shoulder Fore » |
Discussion on Shoulder-fore vs shoulder-in | |
Author | Message |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 12:42 pm: Dear Janette,I read in your article on shoulder-fore that the horse is travelling on three tracks. I think that is not correct, the horse should "print" four lines of hooves on the arena. When it is on three tracks, i.e. the inside hind and the outside fore step on the same track it is shoulder-in, which is performed through the same aids, but with more bend and collection than the shoulder-fore. |
Member: Taxiridr |
Posted on Friday, Jan 9, 2004 - 8:35 pm: I agree with Christos, needs clarification about the tracks. In Shoulder-fore we position the forehand to the inside of the track, riding the inside hind so it tracks between the front leg tracks. It becomes a really smished 4 tracks. You MUST have proper rhythm and developed impulsion before you do this. She is correct by saying it is a GREAT straightening exercies. It is essential to learn to feel this. Isn't "You must bend your horse to straighten him" on a plaque in the Spanish Riding School? Shoulder-fore is a great "Happy Place" exercise for developing more difficult lateral movements |
Member: Janette |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2004 - 11:35 am: First let me be clear, I am not a dressage rider or trainer. I use these principles regularly to supple our gaited horses and help to establish good four beat gaits and was the reason for putting these descriptions in here.I have used Jeanie Loriston-Clarkes book on "Complete Dressage" in order to help with the descriptions of these techniques. In both shoulder-fore and shoulder-in at the trot she says the back outside foot will be aligned with the inside fore. However at the canter both appear to produce 4 tracks. This is also what I try to achieve with varying degrees of success. As I understand it, in the shoulder-in there is more bend in the torso but the whole horse with respect to the long axis rotates such that the inside fore lines up witht the outside rear. Or look at it this way, in shoulder-fore the horse bends slightly bringing the front inside in front of the outside rear with the rear staying in the same tracks. With shoulder-in the horse has greater bend, but the hind quarters are moved out from the rail as well as the front and the outside rear aligning with the inside fore again. Janette |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2004 - 3:01 pm: Janette,I am no dressage rider either, I also use these exercises just for the overall benefit on the horse. It's been years since I was taught their execution, so it is possible that I have got something wrong and nobody around knows it to tell me. Let's think travelling straight down the long side of the arena. The horse is printing two tracks parallel to the rail. You bring the shoulders in slightly, so the front hooves print now 30cm each to the inside of the initial two tracks. You keep the horse slightly bent so the hind legs stay on the initial track and the horse stays travelling parallel to the rail. That, I call shoulder-fore. If you ask for a bit more bend and bring the shoulders some 30cm more to the inside, the outside fore will fall in the track of the inside hind. That, I call shoulder-in. I do not understand how you can have the outside legs on the same track, the shoulders brought in and the horse travelling parallel to the side of the arena. Have I got something wrong? |
Member: Taxiridr |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2004 - 6:58 pm: I think Ms. Loriston-Clarke is talking about Haunches in! It sounds like the terms "outside" and "inside" are mixed up! Now, I have gone to riding school, I ride dressage. I fully admit I can be wrong many times, but shoulder-fore & shoulder-in bugged me for such long time before I straightened them out. "Inside" should always mean the inside of the bend of the horse - bent to the right, inside is everything on the right - right hind, right foreleg, eyelash, etc. Outside is the converse of inside.I believe the description from Ms. Loriston-Clark is inaccurate, may be misquoted? The outside hind and the inside fore cannot line up in shoulder-fore or especially shoulder in. THIS IS HAUNCHES-IN (AKA TRAVERS)!! Shoulder-In is when the shoulders are to the inside of the school. Look at what you are calling inside and outside. Here is a quote from "The Principles of Riding," the official instruction book of the German National Equestrian Federation. "...'shoulder-fore' where the forehand is taken a little into the school, so that the outside hind foot still moves towards the outside shoulder, but the inside hind foot, viewed from the front, steps clearly between the front legs. By bringing the forehand even more from the track, and with increased collection, 'shoulder-in' is developed." (p. 175, 1st edition) Think about what we are trying to achieve. Horses have narrower shoulders than haunches. We need to create a straight horse to progress with collection. To do this, we must bend the horse to straighten him, lining up the inside limbs. This bend, or really straightness, is what we now expand upon for our lateral work. In Shoulder-fore we begin to move the shoulders to the inside of the track, keeping the haunches right in place. We now have the inside hind stepping between the front tracks, often making 4 tracks. You control the shoulders. You ride so that you can go into shoulder-fore and back to straightness with ease, then you introduce shoulder-in when you increase the bend so that the inside hind and outside fore track in the same track - 3 tracks. Christos, I agree with your exercise. |
Member: Canderso |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2004 - 8:46 pm: Hi all,The answer re shoulder in and its definition can be found in the FEI dressage rules at https://www.horsesport.org/fei/pdfs/reference/03_02/dressage/DressageRules03-ENG. pdf. Section 412 goes into the detail (and BTW, this confirms that Christos is correct in his understanding of shoulder in). |
Member: Canderso |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2004 - 8:50 pm: Looks like the link I posted doesn't work. How weird. If you type in the URL https://www.horsesport.org/fei/pdfs/reference/03_02/dressageand choose 'dressage rules 03', you will get there. |
Member: Janette |
Posted on Friday, Jan 16, 2004 - 7:10 am: I think we all agree that shoulder-in results in 3 tracks. And as the excellent reference Cheryl gives us above so clearly shows the horses increased bend in shoulder-in results in both the shoulders and haunches moving in, though certainly the shoulders more so than the haunches. But I don't find a similar description of the exercise shoulder-fore which is where there seems to be disagreement.Amy you are right, when I said the rear is moved out I should have completed the thought "from the rail", which is truly moving "in". My terminology was confusing and I will try to be more consistent. I have added from the rail above so others will not be confused. However my recollection of Ms. Loriston-Clarke's reference is not misquoted. I went back to the reference and she quite clearly states on page 80 of the first edition (1987) of The Complete Guide to Dressage that there are only 3 tracks with shoulder-fore at the trot and then re-emphasizes this on page 82 when she states that "shoulder-in like shoulder-fore has 3 tracks but with more bend and collection". Again, I plead ignorant and present this as what I learned and try to practice but will now let those who know better "duke it out". Janette |
Member: Taxiridr |
Posted on Friday, Jan 16, 2004 - 7:01 pm: I hope you don't think I am duking! Dressage terms can be confusing but the concepts are really important. The misquote was when you said the outside hind and inside fore would line up in shoulder-in. This is incorrect. I don't think Ms. Loriston-Clarke meant that. Even to say the rear is moved out, to me, just gives the impression that we are moving the haunches and this is not shoulder-fore or shoulder-in.But, I discovered something! I have conversed with some Dressage judges about the matter. It seems the tracks are not the point of shoulder-fore, in fact they can be 4 or 3 tracks. It really depends upon the conformation of your horse and your specific seat. The point is to begin to bring the shoulders to the inside. The Haunches DO NOT come off the track to the inside. You will make your horse very crooked. This becomes messy to fix. What I use with my students and what my teachers used with me is this: While riding your horse STRAIGHT with proper BEND (your inside leg at the girth, outside leg slightly behind) lead the shoulders to the inside of the track with your rein aids. Your outside rein has most contact and your inside rein asks for flexion. Now, envision that you are riding the inside hind between the horse's front two legs. MAKE SURE you do not take the haunches off the track! You will wreck your bend and make the horse crooked. I am not trying to be critical, but the consequences for incorrect riding of these movements is messy to fix - speaking from experience! Happy riding! |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 17, 2004 - 7:23 am: Dear Amy,The point in shoulder fore is to have the horse slightly bent and travelling on a track parallel to the rail with it's body at an angle of, say, 5 degrees to it. If the horse bends around your inside leg to the extend that the haunches are coming in as well, it is not a crooked horse, it is an advanced horse! You just keep the horse on the track with your inside leg, bring the shoulders a bit more in, increasing the angle of travelling to, say, 10 degrees and, voila, shoulder-in! You don't insist on the introductory small bend of the shoulder-fore when the horse offers enough bend to shoulder-in, and you certainly don't consider the horse crooked. If you have three tracks on shoulder-fore it probably means that the hips are not perpendicular to the track, i.e.: The inside HIP falls behind in a disengaged fashion, i.e. the leg, though flexed, reaches less forward or the same as the outside hind, i.e. there goes collection, or: The inside HIP leads in front of the outside hip, steps well under and into the track of the outside fore, which is outside of the center of balance of the horse. That would be like a shoulder-in with poor bend, where the middle track is towards the outside and not exactly in the middle, directly under the horse's center of balance. These are differences that are very difficult to observe and feel in the very slight bend and collection of the shoulder-fore, even at walk. This is probably the reason shoulder-fore is not included in any dressage test. I am all exhausted with describing this in words. I need now to saddle up a horse and have a little hack to clear my head. |
Member: Taxiridr |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 17, 2004 - 8:50 pm: Dear Christos, I am agreeing to disagree |
Member: Swainl |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 20, 2004 - 5:05 pm: Perhaps another way to consider the difference between shoulder fore and shoulder in is to look at the purpose of each exercise as well as at what point of training to introduce each movement. Shoulder fore is almost like a "baby" shoulder in. It can be introduced very early in the training of a horse as well as early in the warm-up of a more advanced horse.Major Anders Lindgren, a renowned figure in the dressage world, uses shoulder fore in his warm up of all levels of dressage horses, from training level through grand prix. He uses it as an exercise to limber the joints of the inside leg. By slightly positioning the shoulders to the inside of the track you cause the inside hind leg to bend a little more at the hock and stifle. This is very slight positioning and should be done without impeding the forward movement of the horse. Major Lindgren would have his students warm up by doing shoulder fore down the long side and then "freshen" the trot by lengthening on the short side. We would do this 6-8 long sides in each direction. Shoulder in begins to be introduced when the horse becomes strong enough to begin lifting his shoulders instead of falling on his face when you go into the shoulder fore from the trot lengthening. Again, this should happen with your horse truly in front of your seat and leg with no loss of impulsion. Shoulder in is a great movement for building the strength for collection, but if you introduce it before your horse can really carry the shoulder fore you will end up losing the throughness and having a horse that is stiff. That's my 2 cents worth |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 20, 2004 - 6:37 pm: I fully agree with Laura's point of view.Yet another benefit of shoulder-fore is that it helps the horse to relax its mental dependability on the rail in the beginning of each session. |
Member: Horsepix |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2004 - 2:43 pm: There was a great article in the April 2004 issue of Dressage Today entitled "3 Steps to Shoulder-Fore" by Todd Flettrich, an FEI rider. I'm going to quote some of it here..."Shoulder-fore is not an actual dressage test movement like shoulder-in, leg yield or pirouette. It's a tool you use throughout all of your riding, starting in the early stages of each horses's training program. In shoulder-in, a horse travels on three or almost four tracks in the show ring. Comparatively, in a good shoulder-fore, the horse appears to move on a straighter path but still with positioning to the inside. He flexes slightly to the inside and bends around your inside leg and his inside hind leg steps inbetween the track of his front feet. This is the straightness you aim for in all of your work." I agree with the above idea and I think this is what Amy Nelson is trying to say (please, correct me if I'm wrong). In the article, Todd goes on to say that shoulder-fore is a development tool that is a preparation for shoulder-in, which requires more collection and balance on the horse's part. There is no mention of degree of bend off the wall, so I'm not sure where that is coming from. There is talk of the placement of the inside hind. I would have to agree that the outside hind is NOT what you want lined up with the inside fore. That would completely twist the horse. The article goes on to say: As you do the shoulder-fore, imagine your horse's inside hind leg stepping in between the tracks of his front feet. Keep your outside leg slightly behind the girth to keep the haunches from drifting out. Use your inside rein to maintain flexion and use your outside rein to control the shoulders and regulate the speed. The entire point of the exercise is to straighten the horse. You do not want the haunches coming off the track. The article also explains some of the things that can go wrong (which I think I read about in the above posts). Here are the questions to ask yourself when you either think you've got it, or know you don't. 1. Are you riding a "neck-in" rather than a shoulder-fore? 2. Does your horse bulge his shoulder to the inside or outside? 3. Do you have to push really hard with your inside leg to get your hrose to do the shoulder-fore? 4. Is your horse going sideways rather than forward? (he says: "If you're using too much inside leg, you may be contracting your body on the inside and collapsing your hip. This discourages the horse from coming forward into the contact. Instead, he moves away from the side you're collapsing on." I hope this is helpful. I recommend getting your hands on this article as it was helpful for me to read and to view the pictures of correct shoulder-fore (and I am a dressage rider). |