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Linda Lashley
Member
Username: Lhenning
Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 11:32 am: |   |
This may sound like a dumb question, but I have been reading and trying to improve my hands and how I use the reins. I keep seeing the phrase "open hands and closed hands". I'm not understanding just what this means and everything seems to imply that the reader already understands this term. If I hold the reins and open my hands, won't the reins fall out of them? |
Stina Richtsmeier
Member
Username: Stina
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 11:51 am: | |
The distinction here can be described as a tightly closed fist vs. a soft hold. Tightly closing the fist causes tension and resistance that travels all the way up the arm and creates resistance in your horse due to a constant restrition on forward momentum. A soft hold allows your entire body to relax and not interfere with the horses motion. One can have too soft a hold which allows the horse to learn to pull the reins out of the riders hands, so it is important to balance the feel. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 351
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 12:01 pm: | |
HOW do you learn to balance the feel? I either have too soft or too tight a hold.
Suggestions? |
Stina Richtsmeier
Member
Username: Stina
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 12:20 pm: | |
A good visual aid is to envision you are holding an egg. If you hold to loosely the egg will fall and break, but if you squeeze to tightly, you will crush the egg.
Another good thing you can do, is ask someone whose feel you believe is good to hold a pair of reins with you, one of you on each end. They can then show you by placing the amount of contact they would on the reins while riding, on the reins in your hands. Hope this helps. |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 221
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 12:24 pm: | |
Aileen, just close your eyes from time to time and feel your hands.
Being lounged blindfolded two-three times also helps a lot towards confidence, relaxation and feel. It is not as horrible as it sounds! |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 351
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 12:38 pm: | |
Thank you Stina...I'll try those.
 EEEEEEK! Blindfolded!??? I am going to take lunging lessons starting next week...but blindfolded!?
How do you know I can keep my balance in my dressage saddle? (;) |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 228
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 4:22 pm: | |
Yes, Aileen, you do not need your eyes on the lunge line.
There is nothing for you to see. Even if you see a bad reaction, you're not fast enough to compensate. This is the most common mistake in riding, trying to visually perceive things and adjust accordingly.
Closing your eyes amplifies your feeling of balance and focuses your senses on the feeling from the saddle and not on the movements of the horse's head.
That develops an unbelievably strong, balanced independent and "educated" seat. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 354
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 4:44 pm: | |
That is exactly my goal Christos "an unbelievably strong, balanced independent and "educated" seat."
Because I know that will end up helping my hands and legs and ankles and hips and shoulders....and and... and...
I just hope I can do it!
|
Sandra Ross
Member
Username: Sross
Post Number: 82
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 6:19 pm: | |
Of course you can do it!
On the longe is the best possible time to close your eyes and really feel your horse without all that other stuff (like steering and control!) to worry about. I've never tried a blindfold myself, I just close my eyes. Also a good way to develop trust in your horse and (the key element here) your competent groundperson.
Give it a try in your lesson next week and let us know how you liked it. |
Fran Cilella
Member
Username: Canter
Post Number: 38
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 6:20 pm: | |
Christos is absolutely right...a few blind-folded lunge lesson will increase your sense of feel 1000%. I've never had the courage to actually use a blind fold, but I have closed my eyes (with a VERY trusted person on the other end of the line) and it's amazing the difference in feel...suddenly I realize that there is a body under my chin, sitting on this horse! We depend so much on our sight, that they actually "blind" us to our other senses (does that make any sense? )
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DINA
Member
Username: Paix
Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 9:29 pm: | |
Its a very good exercise. I never blind folded myself either - I close my eyes and I cant hear the horse, so I have to depend on (and trust) what I am feeling to keep my balance.
I do this often with legs out of stirrup - gravity really helps. I also take it further and put out my arms parallel to the ground.
When I trained horses with my dad (I was 7 or so), the horse always seemed to move so much faster when I closed my eyes...in a small bullpen, fast was scary sans my eyes, hands, saddle and reins... whats left? My thighs! I didnt realize was how much I was sqeezing to hold on.
Never a good choice - eyes open or not.
I learned soon enough, If I didnt want to be so scared, I HAD to relax, then the horse miraculously slowed and I relaxed more, etc.
I needed to trust, if I really let go, the horse will, too.
Its quite symbiotic.
When I work with someone - I always introduce this exercise, eventually removing the saddle and bridle, etc. If its a new rider, I start without ever using a saddle or reins. Its amazing the difference it makes.
I love to hear other people talk about their experience with this particular exercise. It was and still is a very exciting part of training and riding for me.
You can do it and you might even get addicted to the contact and trust you feel.
There come's a point in every rider's life when he has to sit back and wonder....Am I Nuts??
- Kelly Stewart
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Sandra Ross
Member
Username: Sross
Post Number: 83
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 9:38 pm: | |
But back to Linda's original question about open vs. closed hands-
As you sit at your computer reading this post, take one of your hands and close it into a fist. Not a tight, fingernails digging into your palm, muscles clenched fist, just a "closed" hand. Now allow your fist to open up until you can see between your "open" fingers. As Stina said, if your fist is too tight, you'll break the egg. If you're so concerned about your hand being too tight that you allow your fist to open up, you'll drop that egg and it still breaks.
Some quotes on the subject from Lendon Gray:
"Open fingers do not mean soft, effective contact. Fingers hold the reins, arms keep the contact...Open fingers (either with no feel at all or with wild swings from no contact to a snatch the mouth to no contact)...are more than ineffective; they're dangerous. I can't tell you how many open-fingered riders have broken those vulnerable fingers when a horse tripped or bucked and an open finger got jammed into his neck with every bit of his rider's weight on it.
Position Check
Under saddle, at a standstill, hold the rein between thumb and forefinger, tight enough that it can't slide, but loose enough that you're not squeezing the oil out of the leather. Softly close the rest of your fingers around the rein as if you were holding a baby bird-gently enough not to squash it, but firmly enough to keep it from flying away. "Turn off" your wrist and forearm, carrying them just enough to maintain a straight line-the shortest distance between two points-from elbow to hand to mouth."
In the winter I do more reading than riding.
Hope this helps. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 356
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2004 - 10:08 am: | |
Sorry for hijacking your thread Linda!
Sandra, Fran and Dina...thanks so much for your support. I think with just my eyes closed -- and not a blindfold -- I'll give it a go!!
No offense Christos, but I'm a 40 year old woman trying to learn and I just don't bounce anymore! Yup...I'm chicken  |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: Lhenning
Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2004 - 1:28 pm: | |
Aileen - not a hijack, I learned a lot from the advice you received as well. I am going to try riding with my eyes closed.
Stina and Sandra - thanks for your great descriptions. The images you presented will help a great deal. I have a much better understanding of the terms.
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Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 230
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2004 - 4:15 am: | |
Linda, Aileen,
Let me add little to Sandra's excellent description.
Though I do not understand the contribution of open fingers to injuries, and I must admit that I do ride with open fingers and do not find them innefective at all, there's a strong point against them.
Many people open their fingers in hope to add elasticity and "follow" in the contact with the horse's mouth. That would be incorrect. It is better to keep your fingers gently closed and work on the elasticity of elbows, shoulders and back for a gentler contact than to attempt to compensate for stiffness by opening the fingers.
No offence taken, Aileen. I think most of the people here are not exactly teenagers either, and we're all more or less chicken. The odd one that is not even a little bit chicken with a beast of 1000lbs, is, to my opinion, either ignorant or suicidal. |
cindy mette
Member
Username: Cindylou
Post Number: 30
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2004 - 2:25 pm: | |
This is a great discussion and one area I struggle with( I have many...) one instructor always told me to try to feel the weight of the reins in my elbows-keeping my elbows on my side and keep my hands light-like I am holding baby birds in them-and never tight. She would often come up to me and take a hold of my hands- to show me that I am gripping way too hard--and I was. She asked me to think of my hands as the valve- by elbows were the key- they should be bearing the weight- I really struggle with opening and closing my hands- which constantly is bothering the horse- and interupting the contact. I too really enjoy a longe lesson-I feel most problems with the hands are a factor of your seat and balance- so your hands and arms are compensating. Riders with incredible seats don't even think about their hands-it is natural once you can sit with confidence any gait. Boy Christos are you right- I am not a teenager and I am a big chicken- another great idea for discussion! |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 488
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 3:56 am: | |
Very interesting discussion. Could I prevail on the hand experts for some advice on what to say to a friend of mine who is riding my sensible horse (as opposed to my "mad" horse) at the moment? Her problem is that due to previously owning a rather bold horse which she sold, she has a tendency to fix her hands and not move enough with the horse's movements as she is constantly expecting something awful to happen (another chicken problem?).
However, she is older than me and not disposed to take "lessons" when we go out on our pleasant hacks on the country lanes. Does anyone have any ideas/metaphors I can try to use to explain that she does not need a tight unyielding contact with this horse (it is really VERY quiet when out with another horse) - but what I'm trying to get across is not a loose rein but a contact which follows the horse's head movement.
At the moment she is annoying the horse into head-tossing which is not something I'd like to encourage. She is not a bad rider, just needs to relearn a bit, open her chest, and relax into the movement without flopping. She also can't get the horse (which is actually quite good at flatwork though she normally needs a good half an hour's work before she will really carry herself) to come round because she is using too much hand, not enough leg and the horse is not convinced she means it and so is not interested in working from behind at all if we go schooling on the beach at low tide.
All the best
Imogen |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 231
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 5:57 am: | |
Imogen,
Here's a trick to explain correct hand action and proper contact:
Take a bathrobe belt,tie two overhand knots some 4-5 inches apart in its middle and have your friend wear it as a bit in her mouth, with the knots resting on the ends of her lips. Stand behind her, holding the two loose ends much like reins and drive her around the house. A whip and a couple of kicks if she makes mistakes, may help her develop more sensitivity with her horse in the future.
Tell her when you are making your elbows, shoulders or fingers stiff, so she understands where the different feeling comes from. Explain to her how little movement it takes from your hands to almost snap her neck when asking for turns.
Then switch positions, so she sees what she's being doing with her hands.
Explain to her that a horse's mouth or neck are not different to hers when it comes to abuse. Horses feel rubs, pinches, stiffness and abrupt movements just the way she felt.
After this little exercise, just ask her to imagine what a simple snaffle can do. If you see no definite understanding and she needs more proof, go ahead and show her how nice it is to feel your cheeks pressed against your jaws and teeth, and how cold and disgusting the bit feels on the tongue.
If she's still not persuaded that hands need to be sensitive, try a curb...
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Angie Judson
Member
Username: Ajudson1
Post Number: 48
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 8:50 am: | |
AH, Christos, I really love your last post!!! I sooo want to do that with my husband, especially the whip and kicking part. He's a heavy handed rider who rides horses like they are machines, I am sure we all know the type.
Linda;
To add something that might help with the original question: Sally Swift's book(s) "Centered Riding" offers some great ideas/illustrations on hands, and balance. That's where I first read about the idea of holding a "little bird" in your hands; and I use that concept alot with myself and helping my daughter ride. She also talks about "soft eyes" and how your pelvic area should be etc. I refer to her book alot when I find myself off balance, or being stiff. And I've been riding for 35 yrs, and still learning. I believe there are at least 2 books by her, and videos also. I see you are in WI, so you have a few months of winter during which reading is better than riding!
Btw everyone, I am glad to hear I am o.k. about being chicken. I got bucked off a new 4 yr old last summer, and am really leary about asking him to canter again, so doing lots of reading this winter!! |
cindy mette
Member
Username: Cindylou
Post Number: 31
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 8:55 am: | |
Too funny Christos- I have had a lot of advice on this subject- because I have had the same history- horses out of control- beginner rider starting at 41 years old- result- death grip on any horse- even when they are calm. What my instructors and just other riders tell me- and it just makes sense- as I in no way want to make my horse uncomfortable- is to release the rein a bit and notice the difference in the horse-I am working right now on just trusting that the horse will not run away with me- which he doesn't. Also- I tend to balance myself on the rein-which is just a result of a poor seat. One other great tool is a panic strap across the saddle- so you are hanging on to that instead of the reins- I ahve also seen people but a strap around the horses neck- to hang on to that instead of the rein. You could also mention that on the trail- (just to be careful with advise...)the horse does need to have his head to balance- just say you read an article about a horse tossing his head- and thought she should give it a try- otherwise the horse really could get worse. If she has had bad experiances- that will get her attention-it would me. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 357
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 10:02 am: | |
Christos! Great point you make about being the horse for awhile! Really makes me think MORE about my hands. Alas, I shall first address my seat while focusing on light hands with my eyes closed.
Imogen, I agree with Cindy. Tell her the horse could get worse. That would get my attention as well. Also, make her tell you a long funny story while she's riding...it'll keep her breathing and maybe relax a bit more It works for me anyway -- and when I relax, I don't have a death grip on the reins and I sit into the horse more -- and wala...happy horse
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Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 233
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 1:35 pm: | |
Please, all, don't just read it, try it!
Believe me, it is a very enlighting exercise. One way or the other... |
Gill Bridgeman
Member
Username: Gillb
Post Number: 33
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 10:04 am: | |
Just wanted to add a little about the bit in the horse's mouth and the effects your hands have on it by pulling on the rein.
If you take the bit you normally use, put it across your bare shin and take a contact on the bit rings with your fingers, you will soon find out just how painful the bit can be! A trainer got me to do this and I was amazed, and very careful from that day on just how much contact I used!!
Two of you can also experiment, by putting the bit around eachother's bare forearm and pulling on the bit rings - you will find it doesn't take long for it to become painful and your circulation to stop. Just think of the effects on the tongue and sensitive bars of the horse's mouth. |
Christine Sizemore
Member
Username: Gingin
Post Number: 19
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 6:16 pm: | |
Hi there! What an iteresting thread! Have you considered using a bitless bridle and loose reins to develop your seat and balance (i.e. trot and post without hanging on the horse's head)? I certainly learned a lot about getting out of my horse's mouth when I rode bitless because the feel is totally different and if you end up balancing on the reins anyway, its not as bad for the horse and you won't end up fighting....it also gets your confidence WAY up when you realize that there is nothing magic about the bit and you can actually trust the horse and let it move forward...sort of takes the "death-grip" tendency away. Next comes trotting and cantering in a rope halter with totally loose reins and once you are beyond that and have good balance, then you can go back to the bit and you will be AMAZED how very differently you can ride...and then this "soft hands" thing also suddenly becomes clear.....
Christine |
Amy
Member
Username: Horsepix
Post Number: 22
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2004 - 3:07 pm: | |
There are a couple of problems with using the bitless bridle.
First, specifically because it is bitless, it is not allowed in dressage competition. If that is the road that Linda is going down, then the bitless is not for her. I agree more with the idea of having an experienced trainer get on the other end of the reins to show her how contact should feel.
Second, the bitless does not teach the horse to accept contact, nor give the rider a true feel of what maintaining contact with the bit is like. These are foundation concepts in dressage (the training pyramid is: Rhythm, Relaxation, CONTACT, Impulsion, Straightness, Collection) -- none of which can be achieved without learning to quiet and steady the hands, forearms, torso, etc.
Although there may be a place for the bitless bridle elsewhere in the horse world, I really don't think it is in the dressage ring. |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: Lhenning
Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 6, 2004 - 1:26 pm: | |
As recommended on this post, I read Sally Swift's book "Centered Riding" and wanted to comment on my progress over the summer. This book has totally changed the way I ride, and improved not only my hands, but my balance, seat, and legs. I have taken lessons, and read other books, but this one says it all in a way that makes it easy to visualize. I still need much practice in getting my body to do things correctly, but now I have a better understanding of what I should be doing and how to achieve it. Angie, thanks for the great advice. For anyone out there looking to move their riding skills up from intermediate to the next level, this book is invaluable.
Linda
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Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 10939
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 8, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
20 years ago Sally changed the way I rode, even though it was a gaited horse. I too agree and would like to emphasize this is the finest single introduction to the balanced seat you can read.
DrO |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 355
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 9, 2004 - 8:06 pm: | |
Dr.O, I totally agree! It's wonderful. The combination of the book and the videos can't be beat. Back when I was teaching, I'd have the student read the book and watch the video along with follow up in the arena.
My dad is a former cavalry man and I have his old manual. I used a lot of it in my lessons, also. Students learned to sit in the saddle, and how to hold the reins before ever getting on a horse. They sat on a dummy in the barn at first. At the same time they learned the right way to approach a horse, lead, groom, etc. Their first lessons on a horse were in an english saddle on a lounge line with no reins. They did all the old cavalry excercises, like bending and touching toes, etc. first with eye open, then with eyes shut. All this really gave them confidence and helped them to be relaxed and have great body position. |
