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Kelly Kreisher
Member
Username: Clover35
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 9:51 pm: |   |
Hi guys! I have an 8 year old TB gelding who I bought after he was turned out in a field with many other horses for two years (after being raced). I believe that he developed this habit while he was out in the field... he gets very protective of his food around other horses to the point where he has now kicked two holes in the wall and kicked me once... He is outside most of the day but in am and pm gets grain... which is okay but if another horse others him while he is still eating (the stalls aren't wood all the way up... there r bars that they can sort of nip at each other a little bit) he starts to kick at the horse (but the wall is there so he ends up putting a hole in it) when i am riding and th eother horses r fed while im not in there i feed him in aisle so the other horse wont bug him while he eats. I thought this would be fins until i was working around him and grooming him which i guess was bothering him and he kicked me! I think this is just second nature to him... anything that bugs him while he's eating he wants to get ride of the annoyance because he's a perfect gentleman the rest of the time. I'm wondering if there are any techniques that would maybe make him less aggresive around his food... and show him that he doesn't have to fight for his food like he might of in the pasture a couple of years ago! Any help wpuld be really appreciated!!! Thanks! |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 10108
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 6:23 am: | |
In my experience these type behaviors are very hard to retrain and it consists of not giving the horse any reason to feel a need to be aggressive at meal time. My suggestion is to go ahead and board up this horse's stall so he does not feel threatened and don't be within kicking range at meal time.
DrO |
Terri Haynie
Member
Username: Terrilyn
Post Number: 108
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 10:08 am: | |
This is a familiar story to me. We have had a 3 year old Paint since October of last year. We knew nothing of his history except he had been turned out with one other horse to pasture after coming from less than ideal conditions as a very young horse (neglect).When we brought him home we learned he was extremely aggressive at mealtime...you could not walk even widely around him or he'd aim a kick at you and let fly with both rear feet. We've had him six months and this behavior has gone away....the kicking anyway. But towards other horses he is awful...if they come anywhere near him he becomes a force to be reckoned with. What is interesting is that even though he's a baby and turned out with a grouchy older 14 yo mare and an easygoing 7 yo gelding, he is the undisputed dominant horse. They would not even THINK of trying to share a pile of hay with him! The approach we decided to take was to minimize any stress associated with feeding. When fed inside, he's in a stall across the aisle from the others. When outside, he's fed first and far from the others. We have let him know that nothing is going to take his food away...and he has gotten better with aggression towards people...in fact, that has disappeared, much to my relief. We can even remove a blanket while he's eating or take a halter off or put one on, or play with his ears...We know he'll always be antsy and anxious at mealtime...and this seems to be his only "hole." Otherwise, he's good--as babies go! Good luck. Stay out of harm's way, though! Unless we have a really good reason to interfere with eating time, we've found it much more relaxing on both us and him to let him have that time to himself. |
Dawn Friesen
Member
Username: Dartanyn
Post Number: 145
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 2:04 pm: | |
Kelly, some additional insight that may help to calm him and you: everytime I've added a new horse to the existing "herd" this agressive behavior goes up a notch for at least 3-6 months, and most often - for the year. I have made it a point to make eating around me (grain in bucket, food on ground, handfed treats) a pleasant experience for him by petting, brushing, or just standing by him and talking to him gently. I know you said he was kicking at you during this process - so find a way to back up a couple of stages on this one, like being the one holding his food in a (noisy) plastic bag - as his hunger will drive him forward to it; but the noise it makes will spook him off and allow you to reform a "trust" in his mind that you will not do anything to him with this new object & he gets feed too! This has desensitized him to my presence; and since all the other horses see me as alpha - it puts me in control when I'm feeding (anything). Does take time, but I've always seen improvement so long as I addressed it. NOTE: I always start off right at his shoulder when desensitizing him, and if I ever approach him when he is already eating -I approach him at shoulder position and stop if a rear end starts to show in my direction and give a small reproof - then reposition myself and begin approaching again if the area/room allows for it. |
Leilani Clark
Member
Username: Leilani
Post Number: 52
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 2:16 pm: | |
Dawn, Great idea. I have a young 3yo that really loves to eat and does not want to be bothered at all while eating. No rear end yet, but has tried to brush me off with her head. I'll try the food in the bag. Thanks. |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 305
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 3:36 pm: | |
Hi, all,
I believe there's no excuse for a horse swinging at you. Grain, fear or whatever, the horse should know that kicking, biting or crowding you is an unthinkable thing to do.
Immediate, strong application of a stiff, stinging whip usually sets things very straight with such attitude.
Procedures that give the horse time to realise that there's no need to be agressive are dangerous in my opinion, as you'll be in great danger until his understanding is solid.
My idea has always been to teach the horse that the only way to get hurt when we're together is to be agressive towards me.
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Terri Haynie
Member
Username: Terrilyn
Post Number: 111
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 4:17 pm: | |
Christos—
I agree that any display of aggression should be met with aggression back towards the horse, and on the occasions that he kicked, we had a lunge whip handy and were able to connect at the right moment. HOWEVER, I prefer not to put a horse in a situation where that kind of behavior is stimulated. A win-win, if you will. I believe it takes a good 6 months for any horse to fully acclimate to new surroundings (as Dawn says, 3-6 months of behavior going up a notch) and for herd dynamics to readjust. What may seem like a nutcase at week 4 can be, and often, is a settled and pleasant animal six months down the road. There’s no substitute for patience and learning what makes a particular horse tick.
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Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 307
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 5:34 pm: | |
Terri,
I fully agree that all measures must be taken to avoid provoking a bad response when training a horse. There's no point in tricking the horse into making a mistake.
But agressiveness is not a mistake. It is the simple action of defying your position, of him setting the limits instead of you.
I prefer setting straight, from day one with a horse, that I have the only rights to that bowl of apples. And yes, I'll gobble down all of them if he doesn't knock it off before they're finished...
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Liliana Velasco Ariza
Member
Username: Liliana
Post Number: 67
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 6:06 pm: | |
Hello Kelly,
Perhaps your horse has not been allowed to have his fill , or his feed bowl was removed before he had finished, I have found this to be the case with ex- racehorses; they are very insecure (TB tend to be a lot more jumpy in any case)
What has worked with me is to add some bran in their feed and carrots for bulk and let them eat in peace until they are done. If at all possible perhaps you can tie him outside away from the other horses, once he learns that nobody is going to steal his plate before he finishes he will stop trying to defend it. It really has worked wonders with me.
With all due respect Christos, I believe that getting a horse to trust me 100% works much better than them being scared of me.
Some studies have shown that they have the grasp of a five or six year old human so I feel that it is a matter of understaing their point of view.
Patience works wonders!
Best of luck,
Liliana |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 10116
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 7:22 pm: | |
Christos,
if you have read my articles on training and discipline, you know I am no push over. I have attempted such negative reinforcement on horses of this type and have only very rarely been rewarded and I have tried more of these than I care to count. There is something odd about the stall/feed aggressive adult horse and your reprimands are often greeted with increasing aggression to the point that your whip becomes ineffective at keeping the horse off of you. Or after getting the horse to retreat and give in you are greeted by even a more aggresive horse next time. On some race tracks where I have worked these guys are called "snakes" because they will strike out at you as you pass and I have seen some of them get beatings worthy of the damage they inflicted.
Personally I have no use for such a horse but I still maintain if this is the only time he displays such behavior you can manage around it safely. These horses often have no other problems at any other time nor do they worsen as time goes by. Not stimulating them calms them over time, but they are never trust worthy at that particular time of day.
DrO |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 308
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 9:26 pm: | |
Doctor,
I would not call somebody who does not agree with negative reinforcement a push-over. I believe it is a strictly technical matter, nothing to do with who's big and brave and who's chicken. For me, it only has to do with what's the best way to get the response we want.
I am really surprised to hear that negative reinforcement has not worked with feed-time agression. I believe and respect what you've seen, and I trust your proficiency with horses.
But the whip has successfully changed the attitude of three very difficult horses I've handled, and a couple of moderately aggressive ones, with no reoccurence as far as I know.
It has only failed with one very special case of a mare, who had been beaten so much in her life that the whip meant nothing new to her. But she's beyond our point here, as her attitude problems were not only with food.
I understand a horse escalating to a full blown attack in a racetrack stall, as the conditions there are rather special. But at home?
You got me puzzled here, doctor...
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Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 309
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 9:37 pm: | |
I realise now that I've used negative reinforcement in these cases in order to prevent agression spreading to other times and activities. An overkill, perhaps.
Well, I'll try a different approach next time and see how it goes.
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Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 310
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2004 - 9:42 pm: | |
Liliana,
I agree with you, the horse should never fear you. Negative reinforcement is not about violence or beating, it is just about making the unwanted behaviour unpleasant for him. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 500
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2004 - 10:35 am: | |
I agree with Dr O that horses which have this problem often do not respond to usual training methods and cannot be "faced down" with lunge whips or anything else. I think maybe it's a very basic food=survival behavioural mechanism and once ingrained almost impossible to eradicate.
But if the horse is good at everything else, it can be safely worked around eg those buckets which rotate into the stable door so you don't have to even enter the stall with a food bucket.
Imogen |
