|
|
Discussion on Frank Bell Questions
Use the navigation bar above to access articles and more discussions on this topic.
| Author |
Message |
    
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 504
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 7:44 pm: |   |
Angie and I had some questions about the system recommended by Frank, and since there are so many savvy HA members we thought we would start a new post. I should note that I just read that awesome thread about all of the nh options out there (from last December). Reading it made me wonder if I should be pulling facets from other programs for my new ottb. He continues to be very endearing and I am seeing some cool clues that he is starting to think I am okay to know. 
I have a few questions about the seven steps.
1.)How long should a "session" be. I think I know what the answer will be, but I am holding off.
2.)When I am attempting to "bond", I seem to be bugging him more than settling or comforting him. I am not sure if it is a "teenager" thing (he is four), or a racehorse thing, or if it is me being just a pain in the a*# to him. He shows very clear signs much of the time that he is irritated (moving his head away, not standing still, etc.).
On a positive note, he has responded really well to give and take. I have been doing it more with halting and backing, because for some reason he has always been more than willing to drop his head to the ground, but has been completely DULL to halting and backing unless the chain was over his nose. Now, just A FEW DAYS after beginning the lessons, he is responding on the first sign of pressure 8 out of 10 times.
I am sure that I will have more questions as we move along, and I really appreciate any time you guys have to give with responses! |
Dove2
Member
Username: dove2
Post Number: 231
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 8:15 pm: | |
Gwen,
Did you purchase the book or Seven Steps DVD? |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 505
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 8:35 pm: | |
DVD |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 9:39 pm: | |
Gwen, i don't know anything about Frank Bell and his system.. I tend to use a little bit of a few NH that i have seen and done clinic's with..
Time = depends on the horse / you and what you are trying to accomplish.. I never put a horse away exhausted only refreshed.. Does that make sense?
bonding = you have to have the horses attention that is paramount, so two eyes on you is important.. he should be licking and chewing or giving you a big sigh when he is comfortable with what you are doing with him.. be brushing / petting / asking for back up / head down / disengaging hind end .. front end..
All this takes time and days..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 506
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 10:04 pm: | |
Thanks Ann. In terms of what I am trying to accomplish, that is why a system such as this is really good for me. I need structure, I need a plan. I am trying to think of it as a lesson plan that I would write for teaching, and I guess that is part of the question. How much is too much to ask of him in one session, one week, and so forth. I know each horse is different, and that I am (again) overanalyzing but I keep thinking of that fine line between making a positive impact and being a PEST! I was reading today about how they can only focus on one thing at a time, and this place is new to him so he is looking everywhere when we are working. He is the type that has to touch everything with his nose (knocked over a garbage can and round pen panel with his nose today) and is really curious. But don't these philosophies encourage the horse to focus on its handler in a "stressful" situation? See I have so many questions. |
Dove2
Member
Username: dove2
Post Number: 233
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 7:20 am: | |
Gwen,
I certainly am no expert either, but I'm happy to share the benefits of my experiences. When my horse was late 3/early 4 (last year), he was horrible! Inattentive, insistent, and trying to figure out where he stood with me and life in general. He, too, was a "teenager" so a lot of that went away when he turned five, but could be up to 7 years for some horses.
I consider three months an absolute minimum to begin to establish a true understanding of one another, but as a novice horse owner, it took me closer to a year to really understand my horse (and him to stop laughing at my ignorance!).
My horses also pull away sometimes when I bring their nose into their side. One tip I finally realized: instead of pulling the nose over and trying to hold it, just guide it and release immediately (but keep your hand there) when you feel the nose go in the direction you want. This will actually help you focus on making a timely release and seems to be less objectionable to the horse. Some days they seem more willing to work with me, and other days they're more distracted. I try to do at least a couple of repetitions, even when they're distracted, but don't force the issue. This is new to your horse, and he's not sure what's expected of him yet. Take your time and chip away at it.
Also, on the days when I don't have much time to tack up and ride, I consider it time well spent just haltering them up, bringing them outside the paddock, and working on rubbing, pressure & release, flexing, backing, and circling/turning exercises. It could be 10/15 minutes or half hour, but it pays huge dividends. Also, I then don't feel so guilty about not riding or handling my horses.
I, too, have tried to make a lesson plan, but found the demands of each day kept changing and I kept feeling like I didn't do what I wanted. Now, I keep the plan open and do what I can. My "overview" is to progress from groundwork, ballet on the ground to ballet under saddle. I noticed my horse was not really putting much weight into his hind end at the turn, so I've gone back to groundwork and am trying to get them to turn better on their haunches. This will translate to under saddle, but then I can also use the fence to help get their weight back at the turn.
Also, I agree whole heartedly with Ann: go as long as the horse is paying attention and not showing that he is overfaced. Sometimes that can be 10 minutes, sometimes much longer. I try to keep new things to a shorter time (new things are more stressful and confusing to the horse - so break them down to manageable chunks) and reviews (things the horse has learned and is confident about) can be longer. The main thing is to not fight with the horse. As a teacher, you know how to "guide" your student along. No cramming allowed.
There's also something I learned in golf that also applies to horses: There is no destination, so enjoy the journey!
P.S. That's great that your horse loves to explore everything. It means he's intelligent. It also makes him a lot of fun. Enjoy! |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1362
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 8:19 am: | |
Gwen,
I had some back and forth with DT, and he's got good insight concerning FB's system so I know he'll post and help you out.
What I've found so far to work:
Don't just use the bonding when "training". I use it now every time I am near the horses. It's like "hi there, how you all doing today? Got any itchies that need rubbing?" Then I rub, talk silly, and let the horse tell me what's up. Every horse has a favorite spot but I also try to do all the rubbing all over the face, ears, nose etc. every time. It might be 30 seconds with one horse who isn't sociable that day, and 15 minutes on another who won't let me walk away!
If a horse isn't 100% comfy with the head rubbing stuff, when doing a training session, I just keep looking for other spots. My goofy guy who I bought the program for, Tango, loves being rubbed around his belly button! After I rub under his belly, then I go back to his face, ears, under his jaw etc. In short, don't get stuck on it has to be a certain way, in a certain order. You may have to always rub your horse say on the withers before you get enough relaxation to do his face and get to rubbing around his tail. Eventually it may work like what has happened with Tango: He comes up to me, and puts his head down and I rub his checks, over his eyes and all, then he sometimes moves off and presents his side so I can do his belly area! And this is a horse I have thought many times was hopeless!! I had even given up and decided I'd never train him.
And now he's licking, chewing and sighing while that monster Wal Mart bag goes all over him. I am not saying he's 100% with that, especially at any given time, but it shows me that the "bonding" made a big difference.
I think it's better to take something from all the programs til you find your style and what works with your horse. The biggest mistake I made was doing everything the Clinton Anderson way. WHY him? I saw more of him on TV, read his book, watched some of his tapes, and thought it was the answer. I was so gung ho about it, hey, it was new, fascinating...wow!
Do you ever, EVER, see him loving up a horse? Besides petting with the end of his handy dandy magical stick? That is what really got me thinking that Frank Bell had something I needed to grasp. And it was CA's methods, IMHO, that did more to terrorize my horse, than train my horse.
Of course I still need experience with timing, and reading a horse. And I do use some CA things; Cruising, one rein stop, etc.
You are right about the fine line. I laughed when I read that as I just asked Denny about the fine line between waiting for the slightest try and holding out vs shutting down completely when the horse is freaking out and going back to "the loving". I find that this knowing how to read the horse is the toughest part. Like with yours, is he being sassy, is he hungry, are you bugging him? Or what?
Kinda like dealing with a 3 year old, huh?
So, for what it's worth, there's my long winded reply. Hope it keeps working for you and your horse.
Angie
P.S., a horse has to be relaxed to focus on you. I think the basis of Bell's system is "you are safe with me my horse, come back to this spot" |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: dtranch
Post Number: 520
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 9:09 am: | |
Gwen and all .....
I am an advocate of the Frank Bell system, and I can attest as to its value. I have worked with Frank, and studied his system, as well as many other NH trainers much like Ann. Frank will tell you, it is important to learn his system, and mold it into your own personality and style, and your horse's personality as well. The key to his system, which I think he has brilliantly simplified in what he calls the 3 C's. If you think about it, it makes so much sense, and will carry you through all your training goals in the future as well.
The system is designed to gain Control, which builds Confidence, which opens the door for Communication. I Try to think about it from both my point of view, and that of the horse. What I mean by that is, that you are gaining control over your horse while the horse is gaining control over his body and his mind. As I gain more and more control, I naturally become more and more Confident in my ability to do so. As your horse gains control, he also gains Confidence in himself (to do it) and in you (to lead him through it). Once we have gotten to that point, Communication is endless, both on the ground and in the saddle.
First, in the bonding and intimacy stages, try to understand some basics. Your horse may pull away from some areas because he doesn't know it feels good yet .. and he is defensive, especially the nose and ear areas. Don't try to force the issue, but don't avoid it either. When they pull away, go back to a good spot for a bit, then return. In the same manner, don't overdo the good spots ... leave your horse wanting more. While you are going through these stages, make note of good reactions as well as bad reactions .. this way you will always have something good to offer the horse when he becomes frustrated with the "bad" areas. In time, the bad areas will become less offensive to the horse.
The second point I would emphasize with this or any program, is not to get too focussed on a structured plan .. even though this is the "7 step system". While it is important to accomplish some things ahead of others to build a solid foundation, you have enough tools at your disposal to vary somewhat. For example, you don't want to do saddle work until groundwork is solid, but you can vary the groundwork exercises, within reason. Keep in mind however, you can't expect your horse to do what he has not learned yet. You will not be successful in sending exercises, if your horse does not understand pressure and release, but there are many ways to work on pressure and release first.
All of training is built around pressure and release or (take and give in the Bell system), but it is critical to understand that the horse learns from the release of pressure, and not the application of pressure. It is here that timing is critical. You will establish a feel for this. Initially, you want to always "reward the smallest try and the slightest change". As you and your horse learn to understand this, you will start to hold the pressure until you get a "better" try before you release. I think John Lyons refers to "baby gives" and "big gives". As your horse gets good at the "baby" gives, maintain pressure for the "big" give. Always give "immediate and full release" and reward with praise.
As for the length of session, it can be 2 minutes of bonding and intimacy, or an hour or 2 of varied work. I try to keep my sessions relatively short and productive. Never train by the clock, train by the horse's responses. If my horse gives me everything I want in 10 minutes, and he is calm and relaxed, it may be a good time to end the session even if I had an hour set aside. The most important thing is to end session on a good note ... always finish up with something that both you and your horse are good at and comfortable with. Your horse should always be calmer and more relaxed after the session than he was before.Your job is to lead the horse toward a specific goal, not force him through it. Be a leader and help your horse build confidence to work his way through each situation.
Sorry for the long post, but I think you may realize I am pretty passionate about this stuff. I can talk horses and training forever ..... I hope some of my blabber is useful.
DT |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 508
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 9:57 am: | |
Awesome, Dennis. Thanks.
Thanks to you too, Dove! |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1448
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 10:07 am: | |
GREAT responses all of em..
Just remember every horse is a learning experience for us as well.. Not one is the same in reaction time or understanding.. but they all do learn..
enjoy the journey of horsemanship..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
cp
Member
Username: cpacer
Post Number: 404
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 12:04 pm: | |
I am so happy to hear that sighing is consistent with licking and chewing! I thought it was saying "oh no, not her again". |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 509
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2007 - 12:46 pm: | |
Angie, I missed your response earlier! Thank you too, for the advice. My gut is telling me that he is defensive because of his lack of exposure. I have found some spots that he likes. Interestingly, he likes his belly scratched. I thought that was funny because so many tbs are sensitive. I think a lot of his confusion lies with him never having worked on these things. From what I have read, tb trainers don't spend a lot of time working on ground manners and such. I have HUGE problems with second guessing myself. I have been riding for 25 years! and question myself all the time...
I do love the "Bell" system though! |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 516
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 9, 2007 - 7:59 pm: | |
Sorry guys, I am a bad student. I just want to check in and follow up with what I have been doing with "Billy". He is such a nudge!  Sessions entailing "bonding" and give and take (with turning the nose) really don't relax either of us. It is actually probably comical to watch because he is interested in EVERYTHING but ME! Like I mentioned before, what we have been responding to best is simply walking in straight lines, halting and backing. It is helpful because he was pretty pushy before and the whole timing thing has gotten much better for me. But I am not doing what was recommended! I know that there really isn't anything to say in terms of help. I guess I am just venting a bit. |
Dove2
Member
Username: dove2
Post Number: 235
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 9, 2007 - 8:20 pm: | |
Gwen,
Don't get discouraged. You are only at the beginning of your journey and Billy has not been with you very long. Relax. All will come, in good time.
Today, I played with a friend's new horse. I also tried the flexing by bringing the nose in. He just didn't get it at all. Nothing like that had ever been done to him. He kept backing up, he kept trying to pull his nose away, lift his head up, whatever he could think of. To help him understand what I was asking for, I put my other hand (the one not holding his nose) at the place on his neck behind his jowl where he could bend his neck, so that he would bend there. Then I brought his nose around again with a little pressure from my other hand at the bending place. Once he brought his head around even a little bit, I released his nose - but kept my hand close by to catch it for the next try. Showing this horse that he can actually bend his head there really seemed to help him get the idea. He was then able to bend all the way to the girth area within minutes because he could understand what I was asking for.
Like your Billy, this guy was interested in everything around him. He has only been at his new home for 3 days. He had been left out in a field with cows for the past two years, although I believe he was used beautifully before that for ranch and trail work.
Gwen, don't be afraid to experiment. You won't break or ruin him. (Ha - I was always afraid of this myself.) He just doesn't understand what you want, and apparently he has not had the need to focus his attention on anyone for awhile, so you'll need to convince him that when you're there, you're going to guide him along, and you won't go away until you get a tiny bit of what you're asking for.
Hope this helps. |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: hwood
Post Number: 2224
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 9, 2007 - 9:19 pm: | |
Dove2, great hints for Guen along with wonderful encouragement.
One thing that I found has helped to get my horses' attention on me is that I taught a "move" cue which is a smooch. When I give the smooch, the horses need to move something, anything, and what I am FIRST looking for is a movement of their ears toward me, and I want to see their eyes focused on me when I enter their space. When we ask for a "give" with the rein or lead rope, if the eyes are looking in the opposite direction of the direction we want the horse to give, then the horse is NOT giving in his mind. We want their minds to give to us first because then we know the horse is "with" us. The only cure for an unfocused horse is for us to NOT give up and keep asking for his attention to come to us . . . and then reward. I don't usually use food rewards, in fact, hardly ever. I'm not saying they aren't effective, but I want my horse to give and come to me because I ask, not because he is focused on food. The food reward will definitely speed up the "give," but then what happens the times I don't have food? I prefer to give a rub on the forehead accompanied by a soft "good boy!"
So, if you are teaching "give to pressure," wait until you see the ear and eye come toward you, too, and focus on you before you reward the give. It isn't a true give if the horse is not focused on you. The wnole point of teaching a horse to give to pressure is to help ensure safety for ourselves and our horses as much as possible. If the horses aren't "giving" in their minds, they are running away from us, and are more apt to engage in dangerous behavior.
Allow me to digress:
The subject of giving in body without giving in mind reminds me of the story of the father who turned to see his young son standing up in the pew next to him during the Sunday service. The father whispered, "Sit down!" The boy sat down, but two seconds later was standing up again. The father put his hand on the son's shoulder and pressured him down into the pew and whispered a bit more forcefully, "}Sit Down!"
The boy sat, but a few seconds later, the father looked to see him standing again! This time the father grabbed his son's shoulder, pushed him down into the pew and said in a louder whisper that caught the attention of the surrounding worshippers, "SIT DOWN!"
The little boy sat with a thump and crossed his arms and with a sullen look on his face and with his eyes straight ahead said in an angry whisper, "I may be sittin' down on the outside, but I'm standin' up on the INSIDE!" That little boy is obviously gonna be trouble for his dad as he gets older and stronger.
How could the dad have made his request more effective and attractive and educational to help his son WANT to obey? |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 519
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 9, 2007 - 9:27 pm: | |
Thanks for the encouragement. It really is helpful. He is getting better at turning his cute little nose... but he also turns his cute little but in the other direction, so we go in circles. (Stopping at everyone's stalls to sniff for some interesting activity.) |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 520
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 9, 2007 - 9:33 pm: | |
Holly, you were posting as I was! I love your story, and I think of these techniques often in my work. I am a special education teacher, and am faced with this struggle everyday. It is not terribly common for a child with learning difficulties to WANT to engage in school-related work. Therefore, I am constantly thinking of ways (usually on the spot) to get these buggers to want to be with me. Once again Gwen, apply what you ALREADY know to horses. Oh when will I catch on... |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1366
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 6:58 am: | |
Gwen,
Tango does the same thing. I put my other hand on him like Dove2 suggested, it seemed to help.
What I have trouble with is the little bitty touch to the girth area; he thinks that means move. It's frustrating to know how much to do anything with this horse. When I think I've got something figured out, he changes the rules. One day he'll stand, and just bend his head, next time, he's all ticklish and moves.
One thing I found is the intimacy helps to keep him from moving. He'd gotten the idea (from my miscommunication) that anytime I am near his rear, looking at it or touching, it meant go in a circle and keep facing me. With head in one hand, and tail area in the other, he's content to stand calm.
Holly,
Wonderful story!! I think Tango is always saying "I may looked stopped and content, but I am really going on the inside"...LOL!!! I hope within our lifetime, he gets over that, grin. |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: dtranch
Post Number: 523
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 8:36 am: | |
Ditto Dove2 and Holly ...
Horses are good at "faking" from time to time. You really do need to get the horse's attention on you in order to move forward in the training. So, we are back at "control" and "timing" of releases.
Holly's story is very insightful ... I am working with a 6yo AQHA gelding now who has become an expert at "I'll give you a little, but I ain't giving in." I spent 2 sessions to get a "small" give with the nose, and another 2 sessions before I got a "good" lateral flex. The first couple of sessions, he did not want to pay attention and focus on me. It is important that I do not release the pressure until I get a "little" attention from the horse. What I like to do is use a little verbal reprimand when the horse wants to ignore me .. Frank Bell uses the SSSHHHHHH sound which is good, but you can use your own AAHH AAHH or whatever, while you try to maintain the pressure. When the horse insists on moving, or pulling head away, or whatever is his avoidance method of choice, give your verbal reprimand to let the horse know this is not acceptable. When you get the slightest ear turn in your way, or nose in a fraction of an inch, immediately release and reward. Give your horse a few minutes to let it soak in .. then try again. You can't insist on getting it all at once, but you should insist on getting the horse to focus on you.
When the horse wants to move, I never try to hold him back or stop him, but I will stay with him until I get a pause in the movement, then release and reward, and allow soak in time again. I let the horse have an escape route, but I want him to learn that the easy way is to choose not to escape.
Do not ever forget that the horse can be as smart as we think we are. If he insists on not focusing on us, and we accept it, he is training us. If we ask for the horse to stand, and he keeps moving and we accept that, he is training us. We must stay with it until we get a little of what we want, then quit on that success, and ask for more the next session. If we get frustrated and quit when the horse is directing the lesson, we move 10 steps backwards. Some horses take minutes, some horses take days, but most can generally understand with good leadership.
DT |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: dtranch
Post Number: 524
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 8:57 am: | |
Angie Darlin'
He can't change the rules unless he is making the rules, he can only choose to disregard them. The rest is up to you.
DT |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1367
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 9:21 am: | |
Good Point Dennis, I need to remember that I am making the rules. Guess that wasn't a good word to use, huh?
Your comments on giving the horse time to let things soak in is a reminder that I need. I look for a little give of some kind, but I am also thinking ahead too much instead of staying in the moment and then letting things be while I just hum or go la dee da, ho hum, and turn off for awhile.
Dang but this horse is teaching me a lot! Have to be patient, while staying quick on my feet, soft but firm in my handling, learning when to quit, when to press on...So far, so good, still around to tell about it! |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1455
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 9:21 am: | |
Another thing my trainer has taught me is NEVER get mad at the horse.. yes, we get frustrated but we have to be the smarter one and not get angry and ugly.. keep plugging away at what we want.. Her other saying is '' THAT HORSE JUST STOLE YOUR REAL-ESTATE meaning that i moved for the horse he did not move for me.. That can be a tuff one to learn.. As a kid i always let the horse lead me, it was hard not to.. treating / giving shots etc. I would dance with the horse.. She has taught me that is not a choice of the horse and the horse is stealing my real-estate over and over..
Someone posted about times a horse is good about flexion other times he is ticklish.. Another word trainer has taught me DISCERNMENT.. the horse has to learn what is a que and what is not.. that i can pet anywhere on a body , but if i POINT that is a que..
Again this ALL takes tons of time..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Cheryl K
Member
Username: cheryl
Post Number: 316
Registered: 2-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 10:10 am: | |
Dennis I haven't posted on this thread but have been following it with avid interest. All the time and effort you put into your responses are greatly appreciated. I purchased Frank Bell's 7 step book and have started working with my TW gelding - now 10 and still not trained. Would give anything to be able to send him to you but will have to settle for doing this myself. It would help if he hadn't been beaten before he was rescued but he is starting to come around. Frank Bell's book has been a God-send. I would imagine there are numerous people following this thread as avidly as myself. Again - Thank You! ! !
Cheryl K |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 521
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 11:38 am: | |
I love that there are others to work through this with me. One thing Dennis, that I am grappling with is knowing when he NEEDS to move and when to tell him that he needs to stand. As you mentioned, sometimes you will allow them to move but then there are times (like when he is walking in circles around me) when I am like, "What would Dennis and Frank do right now?". I will be more alert to whether he is giving me his attention.
Holly, he is a treat hound, and I know I could get a much more responsive horse with them but like you said, what do we do when they aren't there???? |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: dtranch
Post Number: 525
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 12:10 pm: | |
Gwen .. When he is moving circles around you, just try to stay with him until he stops, then reward immediately. I know it is sometimes difficult, and easier for me because I'm tall. I put may arm over his hip and hang on to the opposite hip while keeping his nose in a bit with the rope and just keep moving with him until he stops. I don't try to stop the movement, I want it to be his idea and learn that stopping is the right response.
I am with Holly on the treats ... I hate being mugged by a treat monster.
Good luck and keep at it .. it will come.
DT |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: hwood
Post Number: 2230
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 1:08 pm: | |
To help with the moving away or standing issue:
My body tells the horse when to move or not. The changes in my posture are so minute, yet horses are wired to detect the slightest movement changes are are much more expert than we are . . . that is their language -- BODY LANGUAGE -- and it really makes working with them so much easier if we can learn their signals with one another.
Example: In a run-in shelter, why do the submissive horses sometimes feel free to just move into the shelter and stand with the dominant horses, and other times keep their distance? They are communicating, even while eating hay . . . watch the wrinkled nostrils and tips of their ears and little shoves of their noses in the direction of the horses they are pushing away . . . it's all so subtle yet SO important for our own safety around them.
So, if I want my horse to move away from me, I move into him with purpose and give him a verbal cue to move . . . Now, "moving into" a horse's space can be something as easy as a finger pointing, as Ann shared. If I want him to stand as I go around him, I turn a bit sideways in my shoulders and walk along side rather than straight into him . . . And teaching a verbal cue for "move" is really helpful. When our minds are thinking "I want that horse to move away or move forward," we position our bodies to help make it happen and our movements toward the horse are more forceful and directive. When we are thinking, "I'm gonna brush his tail or pick up his foot," our bodies become more "friendly" in their postures, and as difficult it may be for us to see it, the horses can tell the difference the more they are around us and if we keep our methods the same. We have to be consistent, and if we are working with horses that have been handled in inconsistent ways by one or more handlers, then it is going to take them much longer to trust what we are saying to them.
My half-draft is a perfect example. He is 26 years old and came from a dude ranch in CO. Can you imagine all the different wranglers and kids and adults and idiots that have handled and ridden that horse in all of his years? He really doesn't know what to trust. Slowly, bit by bit (and he has been here just under a year) he is learning to trust. He is still wary and will often choose to move away before he moves toward me, but I can see the improvement in him from week to week . . . and one day, it will all culminate in a big "sigh," and he will really be
"Home" in his mind. |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: amara
Post Number: 384
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 4:38 pm: | |
Gwen, even tho I dont use Frank Bell's methods, they are somewhat similar to what I do and I'd like to chime in to your question..
the phrase "troubled minds move feet (and ears, lips and tails) is so very true... if i have a nervous horse and it cant stand still, then i allow it to keep moving - by disengaging the hindquarters - until the horse is ready to stand, then, depending on what stage of the relationship the horse is at, i'll either stand facing the horse, or next to the horse with my shoulders parallel to it until the horse processes what happened - usually at least double the length of time the horse was moving, but definately until i get some licking or chewing (or more!)...when the horse is moving i follow with my body facing the hindquarters of the horse,and the hand closest to the horse up and controlling the front end as necessary, until the horse gives me a sign that it is ready to stop...then i change my position to where my body is not faing the hindquarters...i actually never use a verbal cue, as the horse is so sensitive that it should never need a verbal cue, and in fact in nature verbal is one of the last "disciplinary responses" given to a horse...
i never actually tell a horse that he needs to stand.. if he needs to move his feet then i need him to do that, because if i dont let him move his feet when he needs to then i really only encourage the horse to just shut down and clam up.. i might get an obedient horse, but i certainly dont have a willing partner... when a horse is in sync with you, if you stand relaxed then the horse stands relaxed, and if you approach with strong body language, then the horse "stands up and takes notice" and gets ready to move, as Holly mentioned...your body positioning and language is very important here.. if you want to keep your horse sensitive and trusting then you have to be spot on every time and Holly's recommendations were excellent...
i also never use treats, as i was taught that it lowers you in the horse's eye, taking away my right to be a leader... |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 525
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 6:27 pm: | |
Thanks Melissa. I will keep all of that in mind. This whole new realm is a tough transition for me. I almost think it is harder for someone who is a "seasoned" horse person to take up a new style such as this, than someone just starting out. I am also feeling VERY self-conscious at the barn doing these (perceived) "tricks". |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: amara
Post Number: 385
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 7:28 pm: | |
Gwen, I think you are spot on in your personal feelings.... when i first "changed" styles, I was lucky because it was actually my boss who got started in it (i was managing a classical dressage facility in new england)... we supported each other, and the one or two other people who got involved... but most of our boarders were totally against it, and we lost several, because they didnt believe that what we were doing was right...most of those that stuck it out actually ended up getting involved in it after they saw the difference in our horses!...
once i got comfortable in training horses the "new way" and understood the philosophy behind it i started to change the way i taught my students, and yes, it was much easier to teach the newbies than it was to teach the "old hands"... there arent many preconceived notions in the new people...
the other hard thing about retraining ourselves or other people is that it involves a different way of thinking, and also requires us to understand that some of what we have done with our horses in the past was actually bad for them, and that we have in many ways contributed to the problems they have today...that's a REAL hard lesson... |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 527
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 8:11 am: | |
Oh, too bad you are not in New England anymore!
Fortunately, I am VERY aware of my screwups with other horses. I have always beaten myself up about it, and now I have a plan to do better! |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1368
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 9:19 am: | |
Gwen,
Your comment about "my screwups" brought a question to mind: (I worry about mine too, lol!)
Do horses recover from early training mistakes?
I've read a few times that doing something right the first time, sets the foundation for future training, but if we make mistakes they can never be completely undone, or the horse will never be as good as was possible without our human error,...more or less. Think it was a translated Dressage book I read that in.
I can see it setting things back, as happened with Tango and him being more scared instead of being more secure, but geesh, does that mean he's hopeless? I'd think NOT!
Denny? Anyone?
Ann,
Loved your post. Having lots of trouble with that with this guy. I really got to thinking after your post and Hollys. These animals are sooo sensitive to our body language and our weight/breathing...everything. It's amazing how they are like a barometer of our emotions too.
What got me angry thinking about this, is someone new to NH, and whatever they perceive to be "natural horsemanship" is the confusion of having "2 eyes" on you. As someone said on another thread, there's nothing worse than a horse that keeps trying to face you. I wish these clinicians would really, really stress more that it's the LITTLEST thing we do that the horses pick up on, not the major "move your butt over or I"ll bite it like a mountain lion" thinking.
O.K., done with my little hissy fit.
Later everyone! |
Dove2
Member
Username: dove2
Post Number: 236
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 10:48 am: | |
Angie,
I recently read something from a respectful source (although I forget who!) that when a horse has a traumatic experience the first time he's experiencing something, then that memory and potential for trauma with it will remain with the horse. Take, for example, the first time a horse is trailered and has a bad experience, that horse will always have the memory of it. Even though the horse can still be trained to overcome the fear, it can always surface. If a horse has trailered lots of times, and then has an accident, the horse can easily overcome that trauma because it previously had no issues with trailering. (Actually, I think this may be on Frank Bell's website.)
Using that as a basis, then I think we can apply the situation to us humans in training. We have to screw up pretty badly (trauma level) to leave a bad, lasting impression.
I have a mare who appears to have been flipped as a filly. She probably reared up and the yahoo cowboy decided to teach her a lesson. She requires sensitive and compassionate handling and is now acting much differently than she did two years ago when I first got her. But I believe it will always be with her, and I'll need to be very sensitive to what might trigger her memory of it.
I believe the level of training errors you are speaking or thinking of, are in a very different category. These creatures (horses) are so forgiving and understanding that I believe they will not hold a human error in training against us. However, we need to be mindful of applying the proper training technique to the sensitivity of the horse. That's why I no longer follow Clinton Anderson like I used to. His "dominant" technique is excellent for a certain type of horse or at certain times, but not all the time for all types of horse personalities. That's why I believe Frank Bell's techniques are much more universal. There is no potential for overwhelming or harming the horse, regardless of personality.
If Tango was getting more scared, then the recognition of this is the first step to correcting it. Scared animals/humans don't learn/perform well. If you try another tactic more suitable to his personality, you will no doubt reach him and bring him to his full potential. That translated Dressage book sounds a bit antiquated. Folks used to think horses were pretty dumb, but I think we now know better. |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: dtranch
Post Number: 526
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2007 - 10:53 am: | |
Angie .. working with rescue horses, I can assure you that your horse can recover from human "screwups". You have done nothing to your horse even remotely close to what these horses have endured from their human counterpart .. and they are learning and coming around.
I almost think we need to throw "time" and "schedule" out the door, and work solely on reactions and responsiveness .. both with our horses, and with ourselves. If you are able to establish that "bond" with your horse, who really gives a crap whether it took 2 weeks, or 6 months. The relationship is the reward. Of course I realize that if you are paying a trainer, time is a relative factor, but for this discussion, we are pretty much talking about self training.
I agree with all above and my goal is to work in unison with the horse. I want them to be soft and supple, and feel my moves and respond to my slightest cue. To accomplish this, I must also be keenly aware of my horse's moves and subtle gestures, and understand that the horse is also communicating with me.
I remember hearing a long time ago, that the best trainer in the world is the "fly". He weighs less than an ounce, but can get a horse to move over, shiver his skin, move his tail and his feet, and etc. Believe me, your horse can feel everything you do. This has always stuck with me. I want to be like that fly .. my slightest move or change in body language is communicating to the horse to do something, or not to do something .. whether on the ground or in the saddle.
DT |
| | |
