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Discussion on Rearing!!
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Cassandra Smith
Member
Username: Qh2244
Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004 - 2:33 pm: |   |
I just purchased a 4yo standardbred mare to start working with and found out very quickly that she rears anytime anything does not go her way or if she is scared etc.
Her history is this: She was at the track briefly as a 2 year old and since then has lived at a family's backyard barn with 2 other horses. They had left her too-small halter on while she was growing, which left a scar on both sides of her jowl. They did remove it eventually. She had not had a halter on since that time up until when I bought her. SHe has had no foot care etc.---she has basically just been a "family pasture ornament" that received treats and brushing.
While I know she was probably rough-handled at the track (I know of the people who broke her and their training methods!!), the family that had her did not abuse her. From the info I gathered from the family, she had partial turnout with the other horses and was brought back in at night etc.---without use of a halter (the stall connects to the field) SHe is friendly and lovable if you approach her and doesn't mind being brushed.
But she rears at anything! She seems to understand the basic concept of leading, but if asked to do anything a tad bit out of her comfort zone, or if she wants to be opinionated she goes up. This is not a "once in a while thing"----it is EXTREME.
She doesn't get mean or strike. I tried using a chain over her nose to help control her while leading, but if you use the shank at all she just gets worked up and goes up even more. Any punishment methods just cause her to quickly end up in a panic state and break out into a sweat.
I was thinking of trying some round pen work based off of john lyons and also starting to clicker train her in her stall to respond to pressure and begin teaching her to lead in very small steps. She knew at one time, and actually is very good at it---unless she is the least bit excited and then loses herself quickly.
If anyone has any specific suggestions or exercises that would be wonderful. She is a sweet horse, I just think she was "barely broke" at the track and probably man-handled and then sat for 2 years and had the bad halter experience. ANY help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!!! |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 110
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004 - 3:10 pm: | |
Cassandra ...
It is my experience with this issue that there may be many reasons for this behaviour, but I have found only one method to eliminate. It may be out of fear, memories of past experience, or she just found out that it works when she wants it to. Regardless of why, we are no strong enough to fight a horse who rears. In fact, the more we pull on her, the more leverage she gets to go even higher or mor violently. What I do, is let her commit to the mistake (rearing in this case) then I make her work hard for a few minutes. I do this by moving her body in each direction as quickly as she can, and also in tight circles. Enough to get her breathing a little heavier. I then immediatley go back to whatever I was doing with her that caused the rear, and try again. If she does not rear this time, a lot of praise and loving, if she does rear, back to the work. I keep up this routine until I get the desired response, then reward with release and praise, and then I quit for the day. I don't want to overdo it or push her into rearing again. I will then start again the next day. This has worked well for me for not only rearing, but for many bad habits in the past. Good luck and hope it helps. I know you will get good info from this site.
DT |
Lorrie Hutchens-Grover
Member
Username: Lorrieg
Post Number: 36
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004 - 3:22 pm: | |
Hi Cassandra,
I would highly recommend that you check out Clinton Andersons (Gaining Respect and Control on the Ground) series.
I have had great success with starting a completely unhandled 4yr old Paint mare by following his methods which are a combination of desensitizing and sensitizing, respecting space, yeilding the forehand and hindquarters, all of which are so extremely important in overcoming a variety of behavorial problems.
He is extremely easy to follow and uses two different horses to demonstrate (one is a more nervous type, the other a very dull insensitive type). He also includes common mistakes to avoid in his tapes as well.
I really think this training series would help you tremendously with your mare I know it helped me to do wonders with my former wild child.
Good Luck,
Lorrie |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 111
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004 - 3:31 pm: | |
Ditto Lorrie on the ground work. You won't find any better than Clinton Anderson. I use his methods, or a variation of his methods with all my new horses. And, as you point out ... I go back to some basic methods on older horses when needed.
DT |
Lisa Germann
Member
Username: Lisamg
Post Number: 29
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004 - 5:28 pm: | |
Cassadra;
My husband rides a 13 year old Standardbred mare that was race trained but never raced. You might be right, it might be something in the way they are broke to drive for the track. My husband's mare's response to most any pressure situation is also to rear. She does not rear high, but rears when she wants to go and is being held back, and rears when she doesn't want to go (i.e. is afraid of something). She only seems to do it in high pressure situations and is otherwise a very willing and good riding horse. My husband has ridden her many miles (over 1,000 in distance competition) and she will still rear sometimes just before the start of the ride. I have also been told she rears in harness when asked to stop at traffic lights (i.e. she doesn't want to stop). I always felt that it was her breeding, in other words this mare is a "race horse" bred to be highly reactive .... and that's what she is. Highly reactive. Not just while being ridden either, although I've never seen her rear in hand she tends to be quite quick in her reactions. You might try some of the non-confrontational training suggested, but I suspect you will never totally get her to stop. It sounds like she needs more of life's experiences... but she also needs to trust you first to get that accomplished safely. Good Luck!
Lisa
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Lorrie Hutchens-Grover
Member
Username: Lorrieg
Post Number: 37
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004 - 6:14 pm: | |
Hey Dennis,
Always great to hear from another Clinton fan!
I do really like Parelli's as well, mostly because of their step by step program that is easy to follow for anyone, and because of their levels which serve as incentive for those striving for a better relationship with their horse, also because of the certifications that they offer for those interested in becoming professional trainers!
I find myself constantly referring to both methods which are very similiar and complimentary to one another, I find that hearing the same thing said in several different ways is very beneficial to learning anything!
Clinton is very straightforward and extremely talented, and as you said his methods are easily used on horses of any age.
I am looking forward to seeing him in person in Texas in November of this year!
Lorrie |
Redmare
Member
Username: Redmare
Post Number: 12
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004 - 6:55 pm: | |
Hi Cassandra- Lots of good advice already, but here's my bit. First, know that rearing is a sign of extreme fear. In nature, rearing would be followed by a 180 turn and bolt in the opposite direction. Heck, sometimes that happens in the arena while a person is riding! In domestic life, horses can learn to rear to get out of unpleasant situations; however, that's not a reason to react aggressively.
You will enjoy clicker training for many reasons. Mainly, it teaches both you and your horse to focus on something other than the problem. Teaching simple, fun exercises will reprogram her to enjoy training and handling. (This post edited by DrO) Spoiling can be as bad as abuse, so you have your work cut out for you. However, with patience and consistency you can make big progress. |
Cassandra Smith
Member
Username: Qh2244
Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 9:09 am: | |
Thanks for the help everyone. I will start to put some of these ideas into action this weekend! |
Alden Chamberlain
Member
Username: Alden
Post Number: 116
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 10:11 am: | |
Hello Redmare,
I disagree that rearing is just a fear response. Horses at play rear all the time and rearing can also be aggressive. Forward energy begins in the rear of the horse and is transferred forward through the body. Rearing is essentially the result of forward energy with no place to go, but up. With that in mind teaching a horse to disengage the rear end is the first step in fixing Cassandra's horse's problem. The other part of the problem is the horse has been taught that rearing gets her what she wants, what ever that maybe. And that will be more difficult to undue.
Both suggestions of ground work following the advice of Clinton Anderson Pat Parelli are both excellent suggestions. I prefer Clinton because I feel he is better at explaining why he does what he does; but they both get results. My addition to these suggestions would be to find a good professional trainer to begin the process, because rearing can be very dangerous for the amateur.
Although I can see how a clicker can be used to reward positive behavior, there are several reason I don't use it.
First, it is curious that 'natural horse trainers' would use a mechanic device rather than the most natural reward a horse knows, and how a mare rewards or calms a nervous foal, which is a quick rub on the withers or a verbal “good boy”.
Second, when I'm teaching new horse people it is about all they can do to keep track of the their feet, hands, ropes and the horse! So I'd rather keep it simple, besides I'd have to keep track of that little bugger myself. I can't really lose my hands easily so they are always ready to reward.
Third, in my experience food is a poor motivator for horses and I think it would very difficult to use on the trail. I've been on a couple trails this week that had sections with drops of several hundred feet, I want the horse thinking about his feet not whats in my pocket.
But, I am curious how the clicker is used to discourage negative behavior?
Good day,
Alden |
ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 414
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 10:39 am: | |
I had a filly, coming two year old that was terrible when leading her IN from pasture turnout in the winter.. I had to lead her with a lunge line so that I had plenty of rope to let out when she went up.. which was almost the whole walk to the barn.. ( I would comment that I was looking at her belly more then her everyday).. I posted about this problem...
I did take her to a professional, and we did some round pen work.. and HE PONIED HER.. that is what made the difference.. when she went up he put his mount into her, then tugged her back.. she became respectful of the halter.. seems she was not halter trained... ( even tho i could lead her).. he then showed me how to unlock her hind end ever few steps at home , to get her mind on me and where her feet were.. she has not been a problem since.. it was a break thru for both of us...
good luck.. I HATED bringing her in that season...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted the good ones!
Ann |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 112
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
I have found that if you do all the groundwork ... releasing the rear, respecting space, lateral flexes, etc. many of these problems are avoided altogether. Unfortunatley, even knowing this, It seems that I can get ahead of my self and eventually wind up back at the ground work to fix a problem I should have already addressed. Hmmmm .. and they say horses are stupid. By the way Ann, the "really good ones" he just painted the rumps .. right.
DT |
Redmare
Member
Username: Redmare
Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 11:44 am: | |
Cassandra-
There was a link to my web site in my post which was removed for "commercialism." Maybe the moderator thought the videos and books for sale were on my site, which they are not. My site had some basic info about clicker training and links to these resources. Yes, I do clicker training in my local area for a living, but I hardly think you folks in other states will be hiring me . So, I guess you'll have to do a web search yourself to find those resources.
Alden, you wrote, "Although I can see how a clicker can be used to reward positive behavior, there are several reason I don't use it.
First, it is curious that 'natural horse trainers' would use a mechanic device rather than the most natural reward a horse knows."
Hmm, I don't know where to start on this comment. Saddle, bridle, halter, rope, stall... all devices unknown in nature. I guess "natural horse trainers" try to communicate with equines in the most natural way possible in the domestic world. That is, we try to develop a relationship with them and get to know them, rather than just tossing on a saddle and riding the bucks out (which I doubt anyone does these days)!
"and how a mare rewards or calms a nervous foal, which is a quick rub on the withers or a verbal 'good boy'."
Although my handle may suggest otherwise, I am not actually a mare and I am not calming a nervous foal, I am a human teaching an adult, often dangerous equine to accept all sorts of bizarre stuff.
"Third, in my experience food is a poor motivator for horses and I think it would very difficult to use on the trail."
A poor motivator? Clearly you don't own Fjords  . They will eat your hat if given a chance. The fact that so many people complain of mugging and refuse to hand feed shows how strong a motivator it is. You're right, though, about it being unmotivating on the trail. When the world is your salad, it's hard to get excited about a horse cookie. The clicker is a training tool, used during schooling sessions, not all the time. By the time you hit the trail, you want to have a modicum of control already.
OK, so back to rearing and how to discourage negative behavior. With positive reinforcement, you don't discourage negative behavior, you teach incompatible positive behavior. There's a little mental exercise you do when you have a problem, where you change your goal from negative to positive. For example, "I want my horse to not rear when I lead her" becomes "I want my horse to walk quietly at my shoulder." That's the behavior you teach, rather than waiting to dole out punishment when the rear happens. Sounds like you're doing the same thing, by disengaging the hindquarters and keeping the feet moving.
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ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 415
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 12:28 pm: | |
RIGHT!!~
 |
Alden Chamberlain
Member
Username: Alden
Post Number: 117
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 3:05 pm: | |
No, I didn't take you Advisor name as literal and neither do I own Fjords (or even met one for that matter). And if you don't think there is saddle and ride them out trainers any longer you must not get out much. They are still around, too many to be sure. But, while I haven't met a horse that doesn't like food it isn't their highest priority. Mine routinely leave food for a belly or ear scratch.
I personally think “Natural horsemanship” to be rather useless term, while I like Clinton Anderson's style very much I have difficulty applying a labeling. My father once said that he thought “Benevolent Horsemanship” would be more appropriate than “Natural”. Maybe so.
I don't discount that clicker training could be useful, but it still seems akin to making a cell call to someone standing two feet away. Why not just cut to the chase? It would be interesting comparison to have two horses in training, one with a clicker trainer and one with a 'natural horsemanship' trainer using pressure and release, and see which horse learns the quickest. My money is on pressure and release.
Ann, I've been told those spots back there were their brains! Then I've never actually owned one either. But yours is a good looker, for a spotted butt that is.
Good day,
Alden |
ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 416
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 4:01 pm: | |
Alden, so you are saying spotted horses HAVE brains..???? hum? interesting concept...
Ann |
Mary E Adams
Member
Username: Ntucket
Post Number: 40
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 4:41 pm: | |
Cassandra and Lisa -
As an aside, just a little background on how this rearing behavior MAY have developed in your Standardbreds (you probably know all this, but..). When Standardbreds are exercised (jogged) or raced, the tacking up procedure involves hooking the overcheck strap onto the saddle of the harness last, when the horse is actually moving forward and the driver is hopping into the cart, generally never when the horse is standing still. The overcheck is often connected to the same bit as the driving reins and is adjusted to hold the head awkwardly high when standing or walking, but as the horse trots or paces, he brings his head down to bear down on the overcheck to set the head position you see while racing. If there were no overcheck, just the driving reins, the horses may curl down, restricting maximum air flow and would also be more difficult for the driver to control in a racing environment.
Depending on the horse and its desire to bring its head lower than optimum headset (for racing), some bits are more severe than others. When introducing a young horse to the overcheck, it should be done very gradually and gently, starting with a loose overcheck and shortening over time. If a horse's exposure is not positive, or a groom attaches it to the saddle of the harness too abruptly, or while the horse is not moving forward, a rearing tendency can be learned. These tractable, kind and trusting Standardbreds probably think that going up is what they are supposed to do when the bit abruptly gets pulled over their withers. Add to this the flight response in this rigging and they have no place else to go but up.
Not that any of this helps undo the damage, but it may explain why the behavior is so related to handling of the head. The training tips above that talk to the other parts of the body certainly seem like great advice.
Good luck with this frustrating situation!
Mary
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Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 462
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 6:18 pm: | |
Now I think I have a few thoughts to add to this discussion.
Rearing is simple reluctance to move forward, and I believe it should be treated as just that.
Whatever the reason for this reluctance may be, does not matter one bit. The horse must move calmly forward whenever asked.
There are, of course, several methods to achieve this. I prefer the lazy, safe one.
That is, you ask the horse to lead by gently applying a bit of pressure on the lead line. The very split second that it offers movement towards you, any movement, from stepping forward with just one leg to jumping towards you after bucking, you release the pressure. The very split second it stops moving, you gently reapply pressure on the rope.
This is a game of patience. The first step may take one very frustrating full hour. The horse may lie down, buck, rear, or simply close its eyes and seem to fall asleep. It is his job to try every possible trick to relieve that pressure. It is your job to maintain gentle pressure until he finds the correct trick, which is moving towards you.
This may sound very time consuming, as the first step may take an hour, the second a few minutes, and then, when the horse will be leading quietly on a relaxed line, you'll need to challenge him by leading him through anything that could possibly be difficult, like a small dark shed, a trailer, a carpet on the ground or over a few ground poles. All together, a couple of hours.
Next day you'll need less than half hour to fine polish the exact position you want the horse to be next to you when you lead.
All the best,
Christos
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Lorrie Hutchens-Grover
Member
Username: Lorrieg
Post Number: 38
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 6:54 pm: | |
Another thing you could try in addition to Christos suggestion which is a good one.
Start by just disengaging the hindquarters in place, once that is going pretty well on both sides, then disengage and start into a small circle immediately several steps at a time.
Before you know it the circle will become bigger and bigger and can then eventually straighten into leading wherever you want.
Wish I could take credit, but yet another great Clinton Anderson training method for leading inexperienced or problematic horses.
It works great!
Good Luck,
Lorrie |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 406
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 7:36 pm: | |
Ann...I didn't know Appy's could look so good! Is your horse a cross? Really nice!!
Rearing can be playing, it can be a fear response, and (most often imo) a refusal to go forward. Most of all, rearing can be dangerous whether you are on the ground or, even worse, in the saddle. When I was young I thought it was great to teach my horse to rear; I thought it made me look like Roy Rogers, and it impressed my friends (my parents never saw this stunt, or there'd have been "rear" problems of another kind!
I have since seen one man killed, and two others badly injured by rearing horses. When on the horse and it rears, it can easily go up too high and flip over backwards, esp. if the rider is a novice and just "hangs on" without trying to get forward movement going. When on the ground, it's all too easy to get hit in the head with a hoof as the horse is either going up or coming down.
A lot of good suggestions posted here; I just wanted to remind everyone that rearing isn't just an annoyance or a "cute trick."
btw-I've a friend with Fjords and they are the only horses I've met that like to eat even more than my Arabs do! Cute litttle guys and they move right along on the trail. |
Ella
Member
Username: Miamoo
Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 9, 2004 - 8:21 am: | |
Hi all,
Christos - the method you spoke about for teaching leading is exactly what I use to teach loading on a trailer too. It works great as long as I am willing in the beginning to take my time. Pressure and release as they step forward. It doesn't matter if they get on the first day as long as I end with a step forward and choose when to quit.
Ann - That is one beautiful picture. I have not been an appy fan but yours is gorgeous!
Cassandra - Please get some help. Rearing is dangerous as you have heard from others on this post. It will be important to figure out if the rearing is happening from confusion and lack of knowledge on the horses part - fairly easy to fix with any of the Anderson/Lyons/Parelli methods referred to or if it is just a horse with an I don't want to attitude. Not so easy to fix and maybe very dangerous. A horse to get rid of. No horse is worth your health and safety.
Just my two cents
Ella |
Lisa Germann
Member
Username: Lisamg
Post Number: 30
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 9, 2004 - 5:36 pm: | |
Christos;
I disagree with you on rearing being caused by not wanting to move forward. If you read my post...my husband's Standardbred will often "half-rear" in anticipation of moving forward. (i.e. at the start of a distance race). Moving forward is exactly what she wants to do. Unfortuneatley at these times she can't move forward until it's time for the race to start. When she gets this keyed up he tends to stay off her back until it's time to leave. That seems to stop the problem. Doesn't happen everytime, usually on cool mornings in the Fall when she's very fit. However, what you said is still correct, rearing (the really dangerous kind) is also a response of a horse in fear or obstinence who does not want to move forward. I've witnessed this with my husband's mare when overfaced on the trail (it was dark and she was frightened). So you are right for the most part, but rearing can have other causes too.
Cassandra:
I tend to think your mare is rearing in response to fear and anxiety which is understandable as the mare has led a "sheltered" life. I would assume that now it's a learned behaviour in response to fear. Perhaps the answer is teaching her a differenct response to use. That's one of John Lyons answers to unwanted behaviour. Worked for me. I wouldn't attempt it though without the help of a professional. I also think Ella is absolutely right. If the rearing problem you describe does not improve with one of the previous posts mentioned training methods, I would consider getting rid of the horse. No horse is worth getting hurt over. There are plenty of good horses more worthy of your time.
My husband bought an Appy several years ago (no offense Ann) who was a real jughead. Totaly barn sour and had been sold from owner to owner. Unfortuneatley he did not find out about the barn sourness until out on the open range alone with the horse. He was fine going out but when turned toward "home" the horse would tremble turn his head sideways and charge back in the direction of home. When my husband brought him back to Michigan I tried starting over with him. I tried lunging him and he charged me. We sold him at a huge loss. I've often wondered if I could have "fixed" him ... but then we have many "nice" horses now and the feed bill is the same. I just didn't want to risk being hurt by this horse no matter how nice he looked.
Just a thought before you get too attached.
Lisa
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Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 463
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 9, 2004 - 7:14 pm: | |
Dear Lisa,
What your husband's mare does is called a flying start. It is not rearing, it's what she's been trained to do for a living.
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Colleen Goolsby
Member
Username: Goolsby
Post Number: 251
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 11:10 am: | |
Hope I am not butting in on Cassandra’s post, but I am having a similar problem with my yearling rescue colt. He doesn’t really rear but stomps, comes up or bucks and runs at me or away from me when leading away from the barn and his comfort zone. He started out leading well (in the corral or around the barn). He also plays with the lead rope. He will shake his head and bite and chew the rope, then will buck or jump or run. Now my question. How should I deal with him playing with the rope? He is focusing on it rather than me. I have been patiently trying to figure out something that will work. I have been doing the pressure and release, but not working with him as much as I should and this weekend my butt headed appy jammed my hand against the trailer so it will be a few more days until I can work him again. I also have another yearling that leads beautifully that I have spent the same amount of time with and used the same methods. |
Jerre R
Member
Username: Jerre
Post Number: 153
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
Colleen, can you do other things to keep your yearling's mind too busy to play with the rope? Ask him to back, disengage the hindquarters and forequarters, back again, yield. If he understands those yields, you can throw them in as you lead him, and he'll have to pay more attention, because you may ask him for something at any step. He sounds like he has a high play drive, so I'd be hesitant to squelch that. But if he's got that much energy, he can "learn" a few more things! Have fun with him, the expressive babies are so entertaining -- as long as he respects your space and you feel safe. |
Colleen Goolsby
Member
Username: Goolsby
Post Number: 252
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 2:07 pm: | |
Thanks Jerre
I will try that (when my hand heals). I have ignored the rope playing thus far and just applied slight pressure until he moved forward, but that is not working well. Our leading sessions have not be very long (time or distance). Other than the leading obstacles, he is respectful and I feel very comfortable around him, but I feel he is going to be a long frustrating road. I am trying to be very patient and take my time. My other colt I call good boy, this one I call mule headed SOB.
Colleen |
Lorrie Hutchens-Grover
Member
Username: Lorrieg
Post Number: 39
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 4:13 pm: | |
Great advise Jerre!
Those are all techniques that are used on the Clinton Anderson groundwork series that I mentioned on a post earlier, and boy are they ever effective in getting a horses attention and respect!
Lorrie |
Jerre R
Member
Username: Jerre
Post Number: 154
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 4:38 pm: | |
Well, when you do this, your path looks like a drunken sailor's (or those dotted-line cartoons in Family Circus  ) But the benefits last beyond leading.
I'm so pleased that there are so many NH trainers now. When I was (much!) younger, the advice would very often have been to use a chain, jerk his nose and scold.
I'm doing the Parelli program at home with my yearling and 5yo, and am mid level-2. I've never had so much fun with horses, or felt so connected.
Jerre |
Lisa Germann
Member
Username: Lisamg
Post Number: 31
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 5:27 pm: | |
Christos;
I am familiar with the "flying start" and yes, this Standardbred does that. But that is not what I was talking about. When I said "half-rear" she lifts both feet off the ground but not high enough to be dangerous (kind of like a levade sp?)repeatedly as long as she is held back. The flying start is something difficult to get used to .... even though it's only to a trot (that's what she's bred to do so that's mostly what she does) it's explosive. It really blows people's mind who are not famliar with it. My husband gets great joy by passing others at a trot during a race when they are cantering or galloping. He just loves to watch their jaws drop.
Lisa
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Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 465
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 6:33 pm: | |
Lisa,
I say this is not rearing in the same sense that a levade is not rearing and a courbette or capriole is not bucking.
Accidentally, perhaps, the horse has been seriously encouraged, i.e. trained to do it. May be not directly encouraged to do the particular trick, but certainly bred, fed and often encouraged into racing mentality, which directly leads to it.
Now, of course, you'd like that mare to stand still on the start line and blast off on your signal only, but that's specialised race training and I believe beyond the point of this thread.
By the way, as her training progresses, you will see that when she stands still on the start line she'll concentrate more, and a less than proficient rider will be caught completely unprepared for the even bigger explosion. Allowing her to act up a bit so she blows some steam and the rider gets in the "action" may be a wiser choice right now.
All the best,
Christos
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Redmare
Member
Username: Redmare
Post Number: 17
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 10:27 pm: | |
Cassandra, how's it going? Lots of ideas here, eager to hear how you progress!
Colleen, this is a common problem and not just with babies. I've been working with a Morgan the size of a moose who is sweet and playful, but will give you a 1200lb body slam when he gets too far from home and wants to go back. This horse is already clicker savvy, so I use that tool to show him what I want. I try to walk him back & forth (this is key I think, not just walking from A-B) and make circles. I carry a dressage whip to swing in the air to move the parts around, or to hit if necessary (like if he's about to fall on me). I get him to circle one way then the other -- not too many times, as it's for obedience rather than exercise.
Jerre, I know all about the drunken sailor. I worked with a semi-wild 2 year old a while ago and I called what we did leading-lunging. Picture it |
Cassandra Smith
Member
Username: Qh2244
Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2004 - 1:22 pm: | |
Hi everyone. Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. Crazy weekend.
I have come to the conclusion that my mare's rearing problem is due to both anxiety and possibly that she has never learned any other way to "get through" a tough situation. As I mentioned before, her only experiences have been a very brief one at the track with probably rough handling and a life at a barn with minimal handling for 2 years and no routine care.
Here is her update:
She is VERY nervous when presented with anything new. She will shake, sweat, rear, run in circles etc. I was too afraid to even go in her stall to groom her in fear she'd plow me over if she got scared, so I worked on some simple things from outside the stall. She is now clicker trained to let me put her halter on from outside her stall and to back from a hand on her chest. This has proven to be a great thing, as I was having to "trick" her into letting me put her halter on, which included bribing and chasing her around a stall a bit the first few days.
We worked in a roundpen on stopping whenever I turned in to face her and she caught on quickly and would do it so long as she was comfortable in the environment she was in. The next day she was sooo much better to lead out to the field from that simple exercise.
She is still nuts at times. If put in a different stall she rears (and walks on her hindlegs---she needs to be a circus horse) and races around, throwing in a few bucks and stomps and anyone new walking into the barn or a car in the driveway (or any other different noise) can send her into a frenzy.
I started clicking her whenever she stood still for even a few seconds and this worked wonders. By the end of yesterday I could lead her much better and could actually stand and groom her while hanging on to her lead rope for short periods without her running circles around me or any other "anxiety attacks" --- a HUGE step from me being afraid of getting stepped on as she flew away from whatever it was that was scaring her.
The rearing while leading has subsided and she is now saving it for in her stall if she gets nerved up or if you put her under "extreme" (for her) pressure, such as leading over a bit of mud from the arena to the barn. I'm owing it all to the clicker and and the numerous site-seeing trips we've made (spending 10 minutes in every 10-foot section of the barn until she somewhat chilled out!!).
We'll see how today goes....
I just recently was exposed to the clicker and use it with my other horse and am now thinking it is a LIFESAVER if you have to deal with a potentially very dangerous horse. It seems to calm them and help get accross what you are asking wonderfully.
SOme people I know cornered a yearling at the track with 3 people and numerous boards and used ropes etc. just to get a halter on, ending up (of course) with numerous bumps and bruises and crashes into walls and a terrified youngster. 20 minutes with the clicker and you'd have a horse who accepted and actually liked his halter, as my "crazy" filly showed me. I'm sure the natural horsemanship teachings would result in much of the same, but if you don't have a roundpen and or can't move the horse and can't get next to it at all I'm thinking the clicker is a wonderful thing!!
Thanks for all your help. I would love to try the Clinton Anderson or Pat Parelli but we all know those tapes/books are expensive and I have the "poor college student" syndrome at the moment. If anyone has been wondering why I haven't mentioned trying them out, that is why!
I've never seen or dealt with a horse this nervous in 16 years around horses, so if anyone else has had experience with a scared, nerved up horse, I'd love to hear from you!
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Terri Haynie
Member
Username: Terrilyn
Post Number: 213
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2004 - 1:57 pm: | |
Cassandra--Just a quick note regarding your comment above about the training materials being expensive, etc. Yes, they are....but there is also lots of guidance available free online. I think Redmare above has made reference to this site before: http://clickryder.8m.com/7games.html in either this or other posts. But it relates how to team Parelli's Seven Games with clicker training. It seems to be easy to read and offers lots of good suggestions....seems you've come very far already. Adding Parelli's Seven Games to your training tool kit will further enhance the positive things that are happening with you and your horse. |
Sherry Wagar
Member
Username: Tlcstabl
Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2004 - 2:29 pm: | |
Hi Cassandra,
I have been away for a while and have just got back to reading my e-mails. As I was reading all the comments about training, I have not noticed anyone say anything about feed. I have come across horses (various ages) in the past that have the same type of reactions as mentioned (especially while in the stall) when they are on sweet feed. It seems that some of the horses do not seem to tolerate molasses very well. With these horses we have changed their diets to crimped oats and have seen drastic changes in their manners within a few days.....
Just my 2 cents worth! |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 113
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2004 - 3:00 pm: | |
Sherry ... Good point.
I had someone bring out a 3yo app gelding that they could not get near. He had jumped a round pen, and stall wall and got banged up a little. I did initial ground work and found he was happy to run forever. He really looked liked he wanted to join up, but would not let you within 10 feet of him without running off agian. After a couple of sessions, I asked the owner about her feeding and care routine .. he just seemed hyper. As it turns out, she was feeding sweet feed and pellet supplements exclusively .. this while he was stalled almost 24/7 .. small turnout but not enough to burn off energy. I immediately put him on crimped oats and daily turnout. Within a week, I was able to approach, halter, and work on ground drills. He now carries his head much lower and follows like a puppy. Seems if we look hard enough, we generally find some reason for behaviour situations.
DT |
Cassandra Smith
Member
Username: Qh2244
Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 14, 2004 - 1:52 pm: | |
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