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Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 116
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2004 - 10:16 am: |   |
I have worked with horses and trained for several years now, and have always noted that the hardest thing to train (for me anyway) is getting a "green" horse to settle into a controllable easy lope. Usually, first few sessions are choppy and the horse tends to go in all different directions when first cantering. After some work, control is not a big issue, but the slower paced "WP" lope takes me much time and effort to establish. I know there is a lot of knowledge and experience on this site ... am I missing some key ingredient in making this transition. What has worked well for you all. I know that time cures a lot of ills, but I am training a lot of outside horses and generally on a 30 to 60 day plan. Maybe I am just expecting too much, but owners like to see a nice, somewhat collected lope upon completion of my training.
Denny |
Terri Haynie
Member
Username: Terrilyn
Post Number: 223
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2004 - 12:05 pm: | |
Denny--I am not a trainer, nor an expert, and having read your previous posts I know you are more experienced than I. But we recently owned a 3 coming 4 year old my daughter was training/riding to use in western pleasure classes. Based on our time with this horse, lots of reading and working with a WP trainer on this subject, time really is the issue. It would be terribly difficult for you to produce the slow, collected western pleasure lope after 30-60 days of training a green horse...and unfair of someone to expect it. It is much more difficult for a horse to sustain the slow lope than a faster canter...requires much more development of muscles, collection, and balance---things a green horse probably hasn't had time to develop to the degree required. Just my take on it based on experience with our own horse that we recently sold. (He's doing well with his training and new owner, but is now going English!) |
Ella
Member
Username: Miamoo
Post Number: 44
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2004 - 2:17 pm: | |
My trainer, who raises and trains Quarter Horses for hunter and western pleasure classes, claims that she can tell the western pleasure prospects by watching them in the field as sucklings. The western pleasure horses move every where in a lope from the first few days in the field and the ones that trot seldom have the carriage for the slow lope later. I did not believe her at first but from years of watching I'll be d___ned but I have not seen her wrong yet! I don't know if the ones who trot just never do enough cantering to really learn how to carry themselves well or if they just naturally don't have the carriage for that slow a canter, but she knows the hunters from the western pleasures from the all arounds before they are weaned! I think all horses can learn to carry themselves with more collection but there are some that just don't have a slow lope. You might be able to tell more on a longe or long lines then from on top since they only have to balance themselves and not a rider too. I agree with Terri though that 30 - 60 days is not enough time to get a green horse to lope under saddle.
Ella  |
Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert
Post Number: 102
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2004 - 4:00 pm: | |
Hi all,
I agree with Ella, I have heard the best trainers say watch them untrained and you will see the standouts. In my experience you can help the one's who struggle with it but it's alot of work. When my mare had a suspensory injury we did collected walk and a very collected slow jog for 8 months under saddle (she has a very quiet nature). She sure knew how to use her hind end after that. Her first baby was by a horse who I loved and when I watched him move free, every action was hind end first,so he was the one I bred her to. When the baby was born, his first move after learing to walk was this lovely uphill canter and has been ever since. What a difference in training this one. |
Lorrie Hutchens-Grover
Member
Username: Lorrieg
Post Number: 44
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2004 - 4:15 pm: | |
Dennis,
You may want to try what Parelli's refer to as a cloverleaf pattern, I have been using it to shorten my "long" moving gelding and have had really good success.
It is a pattern with four equal sized square quadrants. You start in the center, move forward and start your first square, say to the right, come across the center and start another square to the right, down the center again the opposite way to the other end and repeat. You should end up performing four equal sized squares all in the same direction and back to the center again forming a cloverleaf pattern. Repeat this pattern as many times as necessary in the same direction, until you feel the horse performing and maintaining a slower more collected gait, then stop at the center mark and let them rest for a good amount of time. Then start the proccess again in the opposite direction, or in this case to the left.
This has really helped my horse to acheive a slower more collected pleasure lope and really has helped him to think about what he is doing instead of getting emotional every time I ask for the canter.
This also works for slowing the trot as well, just adjust the size of your squares accordingly.
Small patterns for "long" horses and big patterns for "short" horses that lack impulsion.
Hope I explained the pattern well enough, give it a try and let me know what results you have.
Lorrie |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 117
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2004 - 4:31 pm: | |
Thanks all for responses ... I agree that the true WP lope takes musch time and practice, and that some horses just aren't able. I may have been a little misleading on my post ... not looking for show class lope, just a nice soft "trail horse" lope or slow canter. Lorrie, this is similar to the method I use. I set up cones about 20 feet apart .. then ride in circles around one cone for a few passes, then on to the next cone in the opposite direction, and so on. I will try your method this evening .. sounds promising. Speed rating has always intrigued me and was curious as to what others do to accomplish this. Many thanks to all.
Denny |
Ria Maguire
Member
Username: Ama431
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2004 - 6:46 pm: | |
Dear Dennis,
Good luck with the clover-leaf! I find it suits some horses and not others.
It seemed to work really well on my underimpulsed "short" horse.
I have a mare at present who is a truly impulsive horse, but for some reason..leg on means fast choppy steps up and down.. even with a loose rein. I know clover-leaf wouldn't help her. She would become terrible frazzled on the straight lines!
I have resigned myself to the slow and steady....
(Phillip Nye from Tasmania, who trained Magic for Parelli for 2 years, said it never worked for her either)...so I'd not do it on those quick, very sensitive horses...but maybe they're the ones who don't go into Western Pleasure anyway. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 566
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 3:30 am: | |
My quickest and most sensitive horse is also the one that can do a beautiful slow, balanced canter, slower than most horses trot. I do think it's in the breeding (Half Holsteiner in her case).
All the best
Imogen |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 484
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 5:06 am: | |
Hi, Dennis,
The faster way to settle a green horse in the desired tempo, is, of course, behind an experienced horse. I think they find it rather relaxing when they realise that all they have to do is to follow the tail in front of them.
Once following is a bit solid, frequent canter/trot/canter and canter/walk/canter transitions teaches the youngster that jumping into canter is not about blasting through the arena. I think one should not worry about collection at this stage. Setting the desired tempo is enough.
When the horse is somewhat solid in accepting the tempo behind the oldtimer, it is time to start separating them. The best way, I think, is to make "mirror" patterns, then meet again. The youngster will be watching the old one very carefully and imitate the tempo even when 20m apart. Gradually, you increase the time apart and you "break" the imitation habit, ie you ask for different things than what the experienced one is doing.
Once the horse accepts well working alone in the desired tempo, you start working on collection. Frequent transitions, especially very small extensions/collections within the gait, do wonders towards self-carriage and engagement of the hindquarters. They actually make the horse very attentive, always engaged and ready for your next cue.
I believe it is very important to say here that more canter will not improve the canter. If you want a horse to canter in a different fashion, you teach him to do it for a few steps first, then a few more and so on. Keeping cantering in an undesirable fashion will only reinforce a bad habit, it will not correct it.
About the timeframe now, if we're talking for a horse in good condition who already happily accepts the rider and his cues, 30 days should be plenty. For an unbacked horse with solid ground training and a good attitude towards people, 60 days can be enough. But if the horse has already developed bad habits, vices, or fears towards people and their procedures, I believe nobody can tell how long it will take to correct them.
Christos |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 485
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 6:16 am: | |
Ella,
I do not quite understand your trainer's point of view. I have seen many many horses who had a huge trot (in excess of 25km/h, yet balanced) and a beautiful lope (under 10km/h, yet balanced) in them.
And as far as I know, most foals will rather lope than trot in the field.
Is there something I'm missing here? Please note that I am not at all familiar with QH and western pleasure. |
Ella
Member
Username: Miamoo
Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 3:14 pm: | |
Christos,
I know what I mean but lets see how well I can do explaining it.
When foals play they all usually run, canter, gallop, buck, fart etc.... this is not what she is looking at.
It's the quiet times. Momma is eating grass and wanders a 15 feet away from baby. Baby looks up and decides to follow mom. No hurry, no worry, maybe a little snack when he arrives. Some will jig/jog over and some will slow canter/lope over. My trainer keeps an eye on these times - when they are just slowly getting from one place to another - and this is how she comes to her opinions. I don't think it has anything to do with how long the stride is or how big the trot is, simply how comfortable they are in the canter. My trainer refers to them as lopers or hunters (i.e. that one is a loper or that one will be a hunter). One of the nicest ones she raised is a hunter. Wins absolutely everything going in the hunter ring. Forget the all around though. The horse just can't hold himself together to canter at the pace necessary to lope. Again, she picked that out as a suckling.
Don't know if this helps or makes sense, but I tried.
Ella |
Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert
Post Number: 103
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 3:40 pm: | |
Ella
that is a perfect explanation, I was going to say that since I don't have the luxury of pasture my babies when with mom in the paddock can only go maybe 30 ft across or less. This colt I was referring to,( now my 3 yr old stud colt) loped regardless of how far he had to go, even 10 feet.
I know we are getting off the subject but my dressage trainer a few years ago told me too, that canter is the hardest gait to fix. You can make a trot look alot better that it really is with training but she would look at how horses canter free as it was her opionion that what you see it what you get in the long run. I have heard it called "the money gait". |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 487
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 3:54 pm: | |
Ok, I got it. Thanks, Ella.
Once we're on the subject, I think I have an interesting remark to compliment Imogen's point.
From all the horses I've met (almost exclusively Thoroughbreds) the ones that could easily hold a very slow lope were only the very fast ones. Funny, isn't it ? |
Leilani Clark
Member
Username: Leilani
Post Number: 72
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 4:10 pm: | |
Christos,
That is a very interesting observation. My older QH mare is not very fast and has a really had time holding a slow lope - she can be like a fast pogo stick at times. Thanks for your input.
Leilani |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 488
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 4:14 pm: | |
I am afraid I have to disagree with your trainer, Debbie.
The walk is by far the hardest gait to fix and the easiest to destroy.
If you watch the walk marks compared to all the rest in an international Dressage competition, you will also see that walk is the money gait...
 |
Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert
Post Number: 104
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 4:46 pm: | |
you're right Christos, I think if they have no walk, at least in dressage, they aren't on the list at all.
I meant to say of trot and canter
we may just have to start a whole new thread here
Thanks |
Ella
Member
Username: Miamoo
Post Number: 47
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 7:10 pm: | |
Alas,Yes we are off subject but I can't resist.
Money gait = canter.
Very poor marks at walk = rider who thinks a walk is something that is just there and not something that has to be worked on.
All too few people actually put as much time in on the walk as they do in the other "important" gaits. My theory is that more time needs to be spent at the walk then the other gaits. If you can teach your horse balance and collection at the walk first you will not have as much difficulty teaching it at the trot and canter.
Just an opinion.
Ella |
Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert
Post Number: 105
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 7:40 pm: | |
I agree Ella
Some disciplines do run through the walk like it doesn't exist. My mare had a 10 walk and a lovely trot when on the hindquarters, canter did lack uphillness and balance. But as I mentioned in a previous post, 10 months of collected walk (suspensory injury) and slow collected trot did wonders for her canter and then it was very beautiful, but still took constant awareness for her to stay there. but it proved as you said how much you can teach at the walk. I am so thrilled to have a young one out of her that I was able to breed in the the overall balance and engagement of the hindquarters that is so natural. Training him is a breeze, you just gently encourage and then stay out of his way. Why I think all breeders should ride their horses., then you really know what you have to pass on. Just some observations in my own program. Have a good one |
Ria Maguire
Member
Username: Ama431
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2004 - 5:53 am: | |
Dear Imogen,
Very interested in your horse, did you start her?
I think a great deal of my problems with my mare is that I don't know her previous history. She's definitely had some sort of trial and-error thing where she thinks legs on mean a Piaffe of some description...so sad... I have finally had to put a better rider on her for extensive training.... I really don't ride European or Western, more like an Aussie stockman..but I have never had a horse that would stop simply because I thought stop..and with one foot in the air, like a border-collie dog!
The best thing about my trainer is watching a very "English" type rider training her in amy Wade Saddle with a side-pull!!
Next week I start my instruction every day with her and I can't wait. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 567
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2004 - 2:56 am: | |
Hi Ria
I bought her from the person who bred and broke her at 6 yo with plenty of experience under her belt. Unfortunately she'd been trained for the Young Irelander national competition for 4yos (loose school showjumping) which she came 4th in but it ruined her showjumping for ever because she rushes fences, and made her stiff on the left (because they go around to the right in that competition). Otherwise she's been a super mare to own, you can do any type of equestrian sport on her even though she is as mad as a hatter and always thinks she knows better than you do.
I quite often ride her and lead another quiet horse to exercise two at once. You can collected-canter her across a field while the other horse trots beside which is much safer than two cantering and the one on the lead rope getting excited and out of control.
I think your horse may have been trained to respond to your weight and to "legs on" as part of a "half halt". I hope so - if so you are fortunate, and best of luck with her.
All the best
Imogen |
