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Discussion on Flinging Front Feet For Farrier | |
Author | Message |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 8:39 am: Now say that really fast about 10 times!Did a search here and didn't find any answers so I hope someone has some tips what to do with my gelding. I got this guy as a yearling and I doubt his feet had ever been touched. He was very quick with his feet but we soon got him accepting handling. Now he's a coming 3 yr old, about 15.2 and I just can't seem to find a way to deal with his front feet. He's still quick when you pick them up but he's got a nasty (and dangerous) habit of "flinging" his feet out front. He has Morgan and Freisian breeding along with Qtr. horse. He does naturally "high step" when he walks and trots. Nice to watch, but a pain to deal with when you want to hold his foot!!! I've been trying to hold it longer and longer as well as having him put his foot on a hay bale, useing a lead rope to help me lift the foot. I then stroke his foot and leg while it's resting on the bale. I am tempted to crack his leg a good one when he throws it out front (he got me twice along side the knee when holding him for my farrier) but he's got a very timid personality and that would IMO make matters worse. And a little attention deficient also. I know for kicking the stall wall that having the horse hit a rubber mat is supposed to cure that habit. And I've heard of putting some kind of strap with some device on the front leg for stopping pawing. I was wondering about something along that lines....something that would be self induced and reward him at the same time when he didn't fling? I know some of this is basic respect thing and I am working on that also. I know, I know, shoulda done this more before he got so darn big. |
Member: Redmare |
Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 11:00 am: Hi Angie-Not to worry, this can be fixed, I did it with a 10 year old who'd had her feet trimmed probably 3x in her life (and that was just the front, no one in their right mind would approach the hind)! I use clicker training and highly recommend it. In this method one sets the horse up to succeed. The key is to never "start with the problem," in other words, you don't wait till the horse strikes then smack him. As you've discovered, that isn't effective. Instead, you ask him to lift his foot and click/reward immediately, putting the foot right down. When this is consistent, you build duration, lifting and holding the foot for longer periods. If he strikes, you've gone too far, take a step back. Some horses actually don't think they can balance on 3 legs, and once they learn they can yank the foot away they'll do it every time. Last week I was asked to help a young girl and her horse with this very problem; the horse was refusing to lift her feet and actually kicking at the girl. Upon observation, I discovered that the girl did not know how to properly ask for and support the lifted foot. The horse was trying, but when she felt no one was holding her hoof or she was losing her balance, she'd swing her leg around then put it down. 10 minutes of instruction and the problem was solved. If only they were all so easy! |
Member: Lhenning |
Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 12:16 pm: Angie,My horse did the same thing but he is a little spoiled too and the food thing just didn't work well with him. Maybe he gets treats for too many other reasons, but I am a small person and his behavior was getting dangerous. I decided to try using negative reinforcement. I attached a long chain lead to his halter and threaded it up over his nose and down to the other side of the halter. Whenever he began to pull his foot from my hand I immediately pulled on the chain. I was not pulling hard, just enough to get his attention, and only for a count of five. Then I waited a moment until he relaxed and I petted him to let him know we were still friends. Then I asked him to pick up his foot and I again tried to pick it. If he stood still and let me, I put the foot down myself and praised him a big bunch. If he tried to pull his foot away, I pulled on the chain. It took me only two or three pulls to convince him it was easier and friendlier to let me handle his feet. The next time I tried to pick up his feet, I put the chain on him but never had to pull on it. I do try to pick his feet often as I think handling him consistently is important in keeping him relaxed about it, and then when the farrier comes around he behaves like a gentleman. Linda |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2005 - 9:41 am: Linda,The very first time he was trimmed we did use a chain under his upper lip...I think my farrier would of been sent flying otherwise. Since I was able to always clean his feet without it I didn't think I should go back to using a chain. But I think you are right, the chain over the nose will probably help. Just hard to do some of this with no help. But I'll try as soon as the temp gets above zero here in Upper MI!!! Thanks also to Redmare; I am not sure about the clicker method. It sounds good, but I've never seen it done and I kinda think it might be a crutch to lean on.....I am sure you will correct me if I am off base. |
Member: Redmare |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2005 - 10:49 am: Hi Angie-The clicker is a tool, as a crutch is a tool, both very useful in certain circumstances. I encourage you to learn more about it and see if it's something that will work for you. In the meantime, you can use positive reinforcement without a clicker or treats. Your comments indicate that your colt is comfortable with you handling his feet, which is great. You also indicate that a lip chain was used on his first trim, which is bad. Using harsh restraint to get something done may seem justified at the time, but you're setting the horse up for later resistance and failure. All the horses I trim will stand quietly and show no fear or resistance. So, as I wrote above, set the horse up to succeed and don't start with the problem. You want this guy to forget that he's even capable of striking . Work with the feet every time you handle him. Encourage him to lift them on his own, then release immediately. Hold them up for longer and longer periods, then release. Simulate what the farrier does. Lots of praise -- standing on 3 legs puts a horse in a vulnerable and potentially frightening situation. Here is a web site about gentling and training mustangs. Boy, talk about needing to trim feet! These guys get into some real conundrums when they are presented with a horse who hasn't been trimmed for a year and is still fire-breathing wild. https://www.ecis.com/~hplove/clo/farcalm1.html |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 5:11 am: I am afraid I have to disagree a bit here.If the horse strikes, he has gone too far, not you. Hit him hard on that leg for every single time he strikes at you. I'do the same if he pulls the leg in an agressive manner while trimming. Losing his balance, getting tired or simply being clumsy is one thing and you have to be patient. But claiming his leg just because he can do it or because he'd rather do something else than standing there on three legs, is something else. He has to understand that whenever you feel like it, that leg belongs to you, not to him. Does hitting the leg work? You bet! You may think that the horse will hold a grudge with this, but they don't. I actually stop my horses sometimes by touching a hind leg, even if they're trotting by. They just freeze on their track with that leg in the air, not a thought of pulling it or striking with it. P.S.: One of them is 9mo. |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 9:11 am: Redmare,I did alot of reading on the site you posted above. I can see that clicker training would have some positive benefit. I found it all very interesting and will check in to it more...thank you for the lead to the website. I especially found Frank Bells 7-step Safety Program good concerning the special spots to rub for bonding with your horse. I will be trying that with all the horses. Christos, This is a hard one to call. Yes, a quick slap would help, but.... Yes, he's claiming the leg because he can and because he's not paying attention. So maybe I will try the "clicker" training concept as this seems to be a way to get his attention also. I have set up crossties but unfortunately the barn doors in front of him are not a solid wall. Facing the other way is worse. (they are temp. made out of discarded papermill material, kind of a nylon woven material which you can see thru somewhat) So he does not have his attention on me totally. He is such a sissy though that slapping may cause more problems. Or may result in a game of lets see who can be quicker here. Appreciate everyones suggestions. (Still too cold here to do much....I am the sissy when it comes to being cold) |
Member: Redmare |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 10:16 am: Angie,I'm glad you enjoyed the KBR web site. Beware, you could sit there reading the articles for hours! Their exercises I have found very useful and their photos are great. Christos, Been, there, done that. Doesn't work for me. I understand what you are trying to say and I agree that the human must make the decisions, but I find that once the leg is free all bets are off and it doesn't matter if you beat the tar out of the horse, the next time you pick up that foot he's pulling it away. That's why I advocate stopping before that happens; kind of reprogramming their responses, not giving them a chance to see the negative behavior as an option. What I do advocate, but with caution, is holding the foot securely and not letting go if the horse begins to struggle; I stress begins because if you don't have a good hold and go with the movement you'll get kicked. If this happens to me I carefully hold the foot till the horse relaxes and stops struggling, even for a second, then I release. So the key is looking for the moment to release, not the moment to correct, so the horse learns that relaxing is the only way to get his leg back. |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 6:45 pm: No, you don't beat the horse, you don't slap it and you don't yell. It is not about punishing the horse or being the boss. It is about making misbehaviour uncomfortable.You just hit the front of the leg with a stiff whip or with your boot, whatever comes handy. I have yet to meet the horse that prefers to put the foot down and have it hit. Not letting go of the leg if the horse struggles is dangerous in many ways, but it is also principally wrong. You never put your strength against the horse's, you will lose. In the best case, you will destroy your back. |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 8:19 am: Redmare, I did sit and read for hours!! Really great site.Christos, I know what you are saying, but as tempting as it is to give him a swift kick or slap, it just doesn't work. It MAY work one time to get his attention, but after that it goes downhill. As many have said on this site, every horse is different. I have a mare who if you slap her, she may very well try to "slap" you back!!! Then she's laying her ears back the rest of the time you are working with her. Get her trust and respect, and she will do anything for you. My farrier does what Redmare suggests; hold the leg til he stops struggling, then puts it down. Yesterday I spent alot of time rubbing and massaging him in the "special" spots I got off the website Redmare led me to. He went from being a little crazy to being calm. He was loose in his stall and the other horses were running up a storm in the pasture, and for him to calm down as fast as he did was amazing. I then spent some time briefly picking up his feet and holding them up, and then to the front (still very cold here, that's why it was a short session) He did pretty good. Redmare, I did order a book on clicker training btw, I found it more fascinating the more I researched it. Now to find a clicker thingy.....and a warmer climate!! |
Member: Redmare |
Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 9:55 am: Hi Angie-I'm so glad you found my suggestions useful! The KBR site was a lifesaver for me when I got my semi-feral pony. My usual approach to a difficult horse did not work at all, and I learned I had to approach him as a wild horse. This was very successful. Enjoy the clicker book and feel free to email me if you have any specific questions once you get started. You can buy clickers online or, closer to home, at pet shops which offer dog training. 60 degrees here in CA... |
Member: Chohler |
Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 3:38 pm: I have a very naughty mustang who would stand for me to do his feet but no one else especially the farrier, who tried to correct him and discovered a mustang will correct you instead when you have an attitude.I don't acknowledge this behavior by smacking we inadvertently end up rewarding the behavior sometimes when we physically try to correct it. And in a mustangs case they just get pissed. I do 5 min ground work with the horse then approach him about the feet if he is beligerent I then procede to work the horse on a lunge line or in the saddle till he is tired. Then I do the feet. It took me 1 session and now he is a good boy for the farrier. They learn real fast it is better to hold still and do the foot thing than to be worked till tired. With all my horses now i work them on a lunge line about 10 min. for the onriest one, right before the farrier gets there, they get some training and everthing goes easier for the farrier who thinks you have wonderfull horses cause they will hold still. |
Member: Liliana |
Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 5:11 pm: So true they are all so different! When my 12 year old semi wild stallion came to the yard, he would not pick up at all and he would bite your bot. He had been abused badly so if you smacked him, forget it he would get your right back.He would colt kick you, his feed bowl, the gate, you name it, he was a good kicker. So when I was brushing him and he did start this kicking I hit him on the leg with the brush but without letting him know it was me. You know...SMACK oh sorry what happened to you old lad?! In his case, also the reason he would not pick his feet was that he was terribly lame with thrush on all four feet! He is as good as gold now. |
Member: Kckohles |
Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 10:35 pm: Punishment is anything that happens after the act. So if the horse strikes and puts his foot down and then you hit him with a whip or kick him with your boot you are punishing him. It would have to be during the act to be discouraging.Clicker training works because of the timing of the click you can use negative discouragement with the exactly the opposite timimg. My sisters horse is really a difficult horse to shoe on the hind, my shoer says even the Pope would get mad at him. He has a very hard time balancing on three legs and does not like any pressure on his feet. So when the shoer runs the rasp down his foot that downward pressure makes him pull away. So the way we helped him is the shoer holds him very loosely, we don't hold him up very long and we discourage the behavior that we don't want. Which means I hold my hand on the nose band of the halter and keep one knuckle poised to knock on his face, on the bone about 4 inches below his eye. Not hard it is just irritating, but it is at the very moment his back tenses and he is going to pull his leg away. If he pulls away when I am not on the ball I don't do anything because it is too late and it would be punishment. The shoer has lost his cool and after the horse had pulled away he smacked him with the file and it only made the horse afraid, he knew the shoer was mad but he didn't know about what. The timing is the key, if it is a moment after the horse pulls away it is too late. The other good thing about using the knuckle thing is that it isn't violent or this huge deal that would cause the horse to pull away or back up which could put the shoer in danger. It is just irritating enough to get them to quit pulling their leg away. It takes them a couple of times to get the connection between the discouragement and them pulling their leg away but once they do they quit. A little story I tell all my students about making the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult: If I had a cookie jar (which I don't because who needs a jar if you only have cookies for a very short time) and my husband was preventing me from getting to the cookie jar and getting some cookies I would know what he was doing like never before. I would know if he was distracted watching TV or was in the bathroom, I would be over at those cookies so fast your head would spin. But if I got over to the cookies and put my hand in there got a sharp pain in my hand everytime I touched one of the cookies I would test it a couple of times to make sure it wasn't a fluke but then that would be it. Because I was doing it to myself. If you try to prevent the horse from flinging his foot he will get you to quit, but if he is doing it to himself he will quit. KIM |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 11:47 pm: Redmare,I am so jealous...I think we are going to be above zero here for the next 2 days, 3-6 inches of snow forecast, then back to the below zero readings. Can't keep my fingers warm long enough to do much....but I can keep reading all the great advice here!!! Kim, My guy sounds like your sisters horse, it's like he's "ticklish" when the rasp is used. I really liked your post, very well said about the timing. Last farrier that smacked my horse didn't get called back. About the cookie jar, would there happen to be Oreo's in that jar?? A few years ago my hubby and kids got me a cookie jar for Halloween...it cackles like a witch when you lift the lid...very hard to sneak cookies out of it. (thought I'd throw that in, thought maybe you were like me and can't leave the cookies alone....tee hee) You made a good point, that's what I meant about a good smack working once, maybe, from then on the horse is anticipating if he's gonna get it again. Angie |
Member: Lhenning |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 18, 2005 - 12:39 pm: Kim,That is also the method I used with the chain on my horse's nose (see previous post). I used a long enough rope that I could hold it while holding his hoof. The moment he tried to pull away, I pulled on the chain. I believe that timing is everything in order for them to associate the discomfort with the action. Linda |
Member: Redmare |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 18, 2005 - 1:43 pm: Kim-I love your cookie jar analogy . You also brought up an important point about horses who seem unable to hold up their hind feet. This can be a sign of a medical problem, and it's always good to ask a vet. I once worked with a horse who just could not lift his hind feet. It was a totally different feel from a horse who is mildly imbalanced, inexperienced, scared, etc. This horse came from a slaughter rescue group so who knows what his health condition was; I suggested that the owner talk to her vet. Some horses understand to lift their hind feet, but not to relax them, and this can lead to kicking. They will lift their foot and hold it with the leg tense till the leg cramps up and they struggle/kick. I first teach a horse to lift the foot, just for a second, then I hold it in my cupped hand near the ground for longer and longer durations. I release when the horse relaxes the leg, because that's the response I want. |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 18, 2005 - 3:10 pm: It is true and rather to be expected that a horse may flick a hoof at you if you hit him on that leg. It's a reflex.So, you hit him again. And again, once for every time that hoof flies your way. I understand this approach is condsidered brutal or ineffective nowadays, compared to gentler, popular approaches. But I honestly tell you, my horses are not the least afraid of me and I trim and shoe them unhaltered, anywhere, anytime. Literally. There's no need to lunge them, to prepare them or to talk them into it in any way. |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 18, 2005 - 3:18 pm: Kim, it is during the act. May be even before it, which is even better, if you're fast enough to hit before the leg actually touches the ground.In the horse's mind, the act is not getting you. The act is putting the hoof down. He doesn't care to hurt you or to toss you around as you hold on for dear life. He just wants to put the leg down. Make that uncomfortable and you're done. |
Member: Erinport |
Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 5:55 pm: Hi Everyone-I've been reading this discussion with great interest. My sister has a 2-year old Fox Trotter filly with excellent feet. For her entire life, she's worn her feet down naturally (barefoot), and has never had any cracks or chips. She's turned out 100% of the time, and is on pasture, part of which has become hard-packed ground. Because of her natural tendency to wear down evenly and naturally, my sister has never done much with her hooves. We raised this baby, and she's an absolute puppy. If I remember correctly, she's literally only had her feet worked by the farrier three times total in her life. Each time, she hopped around and misbehaved. Our farrier is very good with youngsters, and was patient with her, getting the job done each time. We were really only filing her a little, to get her used to the handling. This is our first foal, and we're not that experienced. Can you tell? Well, now that baby is pushing 15.2hh, and adamantly refuses to pick up her feet. The farrier can get her to do it, but he's not exactly there every day. She's normally an extremely sweet horse, but on this one thing, she's pretty stubborn. It's not meanness, she simply ignores us. I get results if I kind of push the end of a crop into her cannon bone with steady, but not hard, pressure. It will get her to twitch that foot up off the ground and give me time to grab it. But once I have hoof in hand, the dance begins. Even with two people holding her, she takes me for quite a ride. Treats and bribery do nothing for her. Again, she's not being mean, she's playing games. But she's a good-sized girl now, and it's not fun being bounced around by her. She's never truly kicked or flung her foot out, or hurt us in any way. It's just that she gets ants in her pants, and won't stand still. She'll be three this spring, and it will soon be time to start working her more. I'm really afraid that his issue with her feet will only get worse. Any suggestions? By the way, my gelding is the complete opposite. If the farrier gets close enough to my gelding, that the gelding can guess which foot he's going for, he's got it in the air before he even gets there! My farrier plays games, and tries to trick him. He ends up doing a little lift-the-foot dance. You literally don't even have to touch him to get him to pick up feet. If he sees you going for it, he picks it up and holds it there until you're ready. I wish that filly would learn by example! And I wish I knew who trained this gelding to be so good about his feet! Angie, didn't mean to horn in on your post. It jsut brought it to mind for me! |
Member: Kckohles |
Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 7:17 pm: Hi Erin,First the easiest way to get a horse to pick up their feet in the front is to pinch the chestnut together and for the rear, pinch the cap of the hock. It doesn't need to be hard. As for the standing still I would first get the horse to lead from the foot to get her use to giving to pressure on her legs. Use a long lead rope loop it around the back of her leg down low and apply pressure and when she gets ready to move quit pulling. Use steady pressure, don't tug it should be constant pressure until there is a try. All you are doing is getting her ready to move and then release. Pretty soon she will feel that pressure and take a step. Then you can start directing the foot. Just remember you are teaching her to yield to pressure not trying to drag her by the leg so you need to release to teach her. Then once you have her leading by the foot you can go back to handling her feet. You have to right idea of trying to keep the foot up, move with her if you have to and the moment you feel her get ready to be still let the foot down. If she doesn't move let the foot down right away. Think about just having the foot up and then down, sometimes we wait until they start moving and we can't hold on to let go, instead just pick it up and put it down if she stays still. Slowly you can build up to holding her foot up for longer periods of time. Don't worry about her moving too much it is hard for them to balance and with their foot up you have taken away their flight which instinctually scares them. KIM |
Member: Liliana |
Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 7:29 pm: Hello there Erin,As it may have become obvious to some, most of my horses are rescue horses, therefore by the time I get them, they are frightened, nervous, sometimes aggressive. Scarlet, the flusy mare, would not pick her feet up at all. She was wild in the bush for some seven years and her previous owner would knock her on the ground with someone sitting on her neck with her ears twitched etc., so she was absolutely sure that she needed all four hoves on the ground or she would fall. What we do when they do not pick up is, we run the hand down the leg and then lightly pinch the leg with our fingers, they always pick up then, in her case we lifted the leg very little off the ground in the beginning and let it go when she got frantic and then a little higher and longer and so on. Admitedly after her terrible ordeal with the previous maniac horse abuser it took us a good four weeks or so to be able to clean her hooves with her standing perfectly still. It may seen like a long time to some people, but I prefer to spend the time needed and then never have a problem again. Best of luck |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 9:55 am: Erin,I never get the least bit upset if someone else starts "chatting" on my post. That's what this is all about, we're all here to learn and share our ideas and experiences. Everyone has good advice here, and alot depends on your specific horse. Even a good slap as Christos suggests may help in a certain setting. I still feel only one good slap though, never more. And that is very seldom used. (a "hey pay attention here buddy" slap) I think no matter how you approach working with your horse you should follow Redmare's advice and go to the site she posted above.....The www.kbrhorse.net site. Read the SEVEN STEPS TO SAFER HORSEMANSHIP. By Frank Bell. I have been finding that by making that bond with your horses thru finding the spots they like rubbed is just awesome!! Go and try to work with a foot, then take a break and give a reward by say rubbing under his tail, which is my guys "magic calm down and melt" area. It's all tied to making the experience positive for the horse. Since trying these "magic touches" all my horses have become really friendly. Not that they weren't before. I've just started with the clicker training.....I'll try to report back in a few weeks and let everyone know if I had good results. Good luck. |
Member: Skye |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 10:09 am: Since we are all discussing behavior for the farrier, what about horses who normally are pretty good or very good, but under new circumstances become awful?My mare is stabled with 4 other horses and is the alpha mare. At her last trimming, she and her coming 3 year old were the only ones inside. She was terrible: dancing, putting feet down, pulling them away, whinnying semi-crazily. Truly, she was terrible. She knows the farrier and rarely is badly behaved. The farrier felt the mare should learn to behave even with the "herd" outside: she backed the mare up, smacked her flank with the rasp, etc. Nothing made her settle down, really. Any ideas on how to think about this? Should we have "given in" and brought the other horses in? Should we have tried another approach? She is a very strong-willed mare, and when she gets an idea in her head, few of us have found a way to change it. |
Member: Kckohles |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 5:55 pm: Hi Ellie,Set your horse up to win, so now you know how to help her, do it next time. It isn't about giving in or that she "should" be one way or another. Do what you can to set it up so she can do what you want her to do. The shoer has a job to do and his income depends on being able to do that job so getting hurt isn't an option for himm. The other thing they shouldn't be expected or allowed to do is train your horse that should be taken care of by you. Smacking her is, after the fact, and she knew he was upset but not about what. And if you reread what you wrote that all the things he did were designed to help her settle down is actually humorous. I know at the time it seemed reasonable enough but it really is counterproductive. Those things probably movtivated her even more to try and get outside. She knew that she would be comfortable with the herd and being in the barn was uncomfortable and unfortunately the shoer just proved it to her. I wouldn't use the time that she is getting shod as a time to train her, do that when there isn't any pressure. The shoer has a job to do and they need the horse to help them get it done and they don't want their egos hurt either. There is too much at stake for them to be effective horse trainers. KIM |
Member: Skye |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 8:24 pm: Kim, thanks for such an articulate and sensible reply; it makes perfect sense. There seems to be a strong feeling among many horse people that the horse should do what we want when we want and how we want, but I felt we were asking her to go against her instinct.Next time the farrier comes, I will ensure all the horses are in. Thanks again for such a helpful response. |
Member: Dyduroc |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 8:51 pm: Ellie,I own an alpha mare, too. When I first got her, nothing on God's green earth would get her to behave when she was separated from the herd for shoeing, vet, etc. Solution? Bring in her pasture buddy to keep her company. Problem solved. Nobody hurt. It took a little time for her to trust that she'd be returned to the herd once separated and she now comes willingly all by herself. It's not 'giving in' in my book. My concern was more for the safety of my vet and farrier. Who cares if she needed a security blanket? Her feet get done and she receives good medical care from people who can focus their attention on my horse's needs vs. worrying about their safety! I'll probably get flamed for 'giving in', but I think it's just like raising children--there are some battles worth fighting and others that you just don't bother with. The trick is knowing the differece. |
Member: Redmare |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 12:25 am: Angie, I'm starting a thread in the Training Your Horse's Mind section on clicker, as this thread is getting huge! Please let us know how it goes. |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 9:18 am: Redmare, great idea!! Meet you in the Training Your Horse's Mind section!! |
Member: caballus |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 - 11:38 am: Two thoughts on this discussion ....1st, a horse will resist with as much energy as the force being applied to him. 2nd, never punish a fear-based behavior. Equine are fear-based animals; animals of prey. They react with flight first and only when they cannot move their feet will they then fight. The HAVE to move their feet somehow when feeling threatened. All their behaviors are based on the fear of not surviving. No punishment for horses. Positive Reinforcement (aka clicker training for example) will exponentially increase the learning curve and decrease the time involved in learning an acceptable or desired behavior. and yes, I do this for a living - I teach horses. I'm also a natural hoofcare professional so have to deal with all sorts of resistant behaviors. I use CT with these horses and in just minutes I have a horse that is willing to stand, unrestrained, and allow me to trim his hooves. I strongly recommend positive reinforcement methods and strongly disagree with punishing horses. Oh, and yes, been at this for over 40 years. So I do have the experience to back up my mouth! *LOL* |