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Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 607
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 16, 2008 - 8:18 pm: |   |
So I have my sweet ottb, and we are cruising along with our everyday horse stuff. Some days better than others (horrible day last Saturday, in which he was a TURKEY on the lunge line). I am wondering though, how we are doing with our training.
My trainer and I have been working with him since late August (usually 1 lesson and 1-2 trains a week). Now it is mid January, and we are still focusing on the same issues as we were then. I am questioning the "status quo", but am feeling so badly about it. I adore my trainer, and consider her a wonderful friend.
To put it clearly, he is still very inconsistent within the rhythm of his trot, and that is what we continue to try to develop. To me, this is a very basic skill that we should be beyond (for the most part) by now. My trainer rarely gets on him because she says she doesn't feel comfortable getting on him when he is being "fresh"-his fresh is not the typical tb fresh-even I am not apprehensive. I respect her though, and know that this is something that she has always been up front about. At this stage in her life, she doesn't want to take risks like that. She seems to do some nice work with him on the lunge line, but I can't help but wish I could see some growth.
I addressed this with her, and she said that her method takes a great deal of patience (which I totally get-there are no artificial aides or "short-cuts"). I have asked her about sending him to a trainer (or her) for a few months, to solidify his skills for me, and she feels strongly that this is a bad idea. She feels that when horses are sent off, they learn to respond to the trainer, then when the owner gets them back, it is a whole new learning curve.
Am I being impatient? I would love some thoughts. Thanks, guys! |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1654
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 16, 2008 - 10:01 pm: | |
Gwen, all good things take time.. but if you are not an experience rider and your trainer won't get on your horse to help.. I hate to say, but it just might be time to look for other help.. Your trainer if she is worth her salt will understand that you need someone to RIDE your horse to help you out..
It took ALL SUMMER for my trainer and I and monthly clinicians to get a balanced canter on my hot WB mare.. it took ALL three of the components to do it.. My trainer was more then willing to get advice and ideas from outside help.. 'she was open' ... she is worth her salt.. Not one person is perfect, and it really helps to get outside help when you come to a wall.. and frankly , Rhythm with a balanced rider is not one of the harder components of skills to teach.. BUT very important to advancement..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 289
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jan 16, 2008 - 10:26 pm: | |
Hi Gwen,
This is that cute TB we talked about a while back? Hmmph.
So I completely support your idea that it will speed your horse's progress and your own if an experienced person would get on him and help develop him under saddle. Trot rhythm is important, but is generally not a sticking point for a trainer or a horse. So I wonder what happens as you get to more difficult work down the road.
I'm with Ann, you need to find someone in addition to or in place of your current trainer. You could start by asking her if she has an advanced student who might ride him for you IF that seems like a good approach to you. Otherwise, you could try looking for good clinics, and start cruising around watching other people teach.
My trainer gets on my horse infrequently, mostly so I can watch her go, but I know that she will get on her at any time I get stuck or need guidance. If she were afraid of my big rowdy Holsteiner, I guess I would look for someone who was not. |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 608
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 6:32 am: | |
Thanks girls. I was hoping you two would read this!
Ann, although I have been riding for almost twenty years (yikes), I am definitely new to training a greenie. My guess is that Theo just needs the consistent reminders of what is expected in terms of a working trot pace. In theory, based on the amount of training sessions/lessons, I would have thought that the frequent work would at least speak for something. I could see if he was difficult or a little bit dumb, but he is very smart and super easy to work with.
I am trying not to be "stuck" here, but it is just defying all logic for me to be working on the exact same skills as I was in September, after having paid for sooo many lessons/training rides. She made a great case for herself, saying that it takes time, and he had an abscess, and he is a tb in the winter, etc. Usually she changes my mind...
She is going away for two months at the beginning of February. I think I am going to work with another trainer at the barn while she is gone, so we'll see what happens with that!!! |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 1343
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 7:24 am: | |
Gwen, I gotta agree with Ann & Elizabeth. While an ottb has a lot to learn, and may prove to be more of a challenge that an "ordinary" horse, listen to your gut. Sounds like he is such a nice horse so he should be making more progress.
My trainer has an amazing resume, but she is quite old now and doesn't often get on my horse...but she NEVER hesitates to recommend a clinic or another trainer. She introduced me to a close friend who is a more skilled rider than I am and is thrilled when we can set up times for the friend to come out and ride Sparkles...and then she will pick the friends brain on what worked and what didn't work. In other words, she's very open to all ideas that will help her students...and that's the way any good teacher should be |
Martha L. Moore
Member
Username: gldilox
Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 2:28 pm: | |
I definitely think it helps to have the trainer work the horse. It gives you a chance to see what the horse looks like when he's doing what he's supposed to! It gives him a chance to understand what is being asked and to have clear cues, as opposed to when I ride and may not have all my "aids in a row."
My horse looks amazing when the trainer rides him. I usually cannot get as much out of the horse as the trainer but that's why we pay them.
I also agree about going to clinics and learning as much as possible from different sources. A good trainer will encourage this. |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 295
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 4:16 pm: | |
So Gwen,
What's going on with his trot rhythm? Is he still inverted, or is he just not maintaining a steady rhythm forward?
In a trained horse, the rider sets the rhythm through the influence of her seat and (in the posting trot) the rhythm and nature of her posting. On a green horse, the rider is trying to teach him to follow her aids and be steady.
A trick that helps me is to pick a song that has the right beat for a good working trot, and sing it out loud as I post. I would share my usual song, but it isn't clean.
This keeps me from falling into my old eventing habit of following the horse and inadvertently re-enforcing the wonky rhythm. Lots of transitions help. Ten strides of trot, walk, etc.. Simple figures can help too, depending on his balance. He will first find a rhythm on a straight line, most likely, since that's easiest for him.
Do these things seem like they might help? |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 609
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 6:00 pm: | |
I do get that, Elizabeth. It makes sense, that I do not want a robot who picks a rhtythm and does not deviate. I want him to be influenced by me. What is happening, is that he wants to get quick (especially to the left-you know, ottb), and I just can't seem to get him settled into a relaxed rhythm. I am trying to keep my posting slow so that he slows to it. My trainer a few weeks ago said we should resort to actually using more hand to slow him because he is not ready for the "rest". When I use more hand, he gets really hollow and tense. I am not explaining myself well, I know. When I circle, I find that he drops that shoulder more and motors. I know I should be counteracting that by remaining in my outside aides...
I do feel at times like I am riding him effectively, and he responds well. THere have been maybe three rides about which I felt like I rode him well and went well as a result. But I feel like they are so few and far between, and I feel like I wish she would get on him more, and I am stumped about why we are not further along.
Do I sound like a whiny brat who is not taking ownership of these problems??? You can be honest!
I appreciate your ideas, and will definitely utilize them, as I always do from you guys! Thanks again, everyone. |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 1344
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 7:15 pm: | |
One thing that helped me keep a steady trot pace is to use a metronome (my trainer watched my horse at a natural trot w/out me and together we set the beat). I bought an inexpensive electronic one that fits in my pocket from a local music store. For some reason, having that tic, tic, tic helped me control my post better than without one. I only used it a few times before the correct rythm was fairly permanently stuck in my head (having a music background may have helped that)...but will ocassionally still take it out if neccessary. |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 1345
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 7:34 pm: | |
Another thought just popped into my head. I wonder if you aren't sitting too lightly in the saddle on the down beat of your post. If you sit very deliberately (I hate to say "hard", but make your horse feel your weight without slamming down into the saddle) and your horse doesn't match the rhythm of his trot to your posting, he'll bump up against you as you come down and his body comes up. That's not comfortable for him and if you keep at it, he will learn that to make himself more comfortable, he must match his pace with your posting.
For me, if my horse gets rushy (often after we come down from more difficult canter work and she loses balance), sitting the trot, with a really, really deep seat helps me bring her back to balance and rhythm. |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 610
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 7:45 pm: | |
So Fran, you bring me to my next question:
Is this not a green horse thing?
Like an idiot, my metronome ran out of batteries, and I can't figure out how to open the battery section!!!
I will try the "hard" posting. One thing I do, that I can't quite seem to shake, is I do like a double-beat post. Probably doesn't help... |
Suzanne Reed
Member
Username: sureed
Post Number: 82
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 9:26 pm: | |
Gwen,
I completely agree with Fran, this is the latest thing my trainer has told me - I am too light in the downbeat of my post to set the rhythm of my horse. Also, I agree about the singing. I use Row Row Row Your Boat, but any two-beat song will do, and you can speed them up or slow them down to get the cadence you want. I also agree with Ann, I think you need a trainer willing to get on your horse. I am in professional training and ride in lessons three days a week, which means trainers are on my horse two days a week. I couldn't ride for a week and a half recently so the trainers rode her. I felt like I was on a different horse. She was bending and responsive in transitions. They do make a difference in the horse and then they teach me to ride her the way I should. It makes such a big difference. My horse is green, she is five and only under saddle for a year, but she has progressed unbelievably. Now she is a Warmblood, and replaced my OTTTB who was flippin' unrpedictable. My trainer did a great job with him too, but at almost 60 years-old, and back in the saddle after 20 years off, I just couldn't deal with the Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde thing.
Sounds like your horse, like mine has Attention Deficit Syndrome (ADD) and needs to be paying more attention to you. There are ground exercises and round pen exercises to help deal with this, but bottom line is it sometimes takes someone with greater confidence than we amatuers may have to get their attention. Having grown up riding TBs it is hard for me to abandon them as my riding horse of choice, but they just aren't bred for anything but racing anymore and temperament be damned. Outside the racing world you see many successful TBs in eventing. Insofar as determining your expectations for your horse, it would be helpful for you to know the temperament of your horse from a heredity standpoint. I had a Storm Cat and the are notorious for being difficult. You can check out your horses's pedigree at equineline.com
Suzanne |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 611
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 9:44 pm: | |
Thanks Suzanne. My trainer and I actually usually comment on the great work ethic of this boy, so his attention doesn't seem to be an issue (I could be wrong about this). Although he can get himself in a bit of a tither. What seems to be glaring at me is that my timing, skill, and physical level is not where it should be to make effective growth with him. I am feeling like I want more intervention, but am not sure how to go about it! He usually tries so hard. He is out of the Mr. Prospector line, which I don't know much about in terms of personality.
I am inclined to agree with you about training rides helping him, but I am really stuck between a rock and a hard place because she doesn't want to ride him, but also can't think of anyone that she recommends for the two months she is gone. I guess the bottom line is that I am not feeling great about status quo, and trainer thinks I am being unreasonable about my expectations.
Again, I love all of your ideas. I am taking notes to bring to the barn! |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 298
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 10:51 pm: | |
Hi Gwen,
If he gets quick, just ask him for a down transition. Ask from your core and your seat (bring your belly button back towards your spine), and back it up with your hand if you must. A few in a row done the same way and most horses will no longer need the hand.
The double bump may be part of your problem. It's kind of a core strength/timing thing. The best trick I know for this is to play with your posting (better on a different horse, but it won't hurt your guy-- just may feel disorganized at first). Hold the "up" in your post for 2 strides, then down 1, up 2, etc.. You'll be changing diagonals on each "up" phase. You can do this up for 3, 4 etc., but never be down for more than 1. A week or so of practice seems to help folks get their timing and control nailed, and then you will never lose it. The double bump may be driving him forward more than you like.
Your guys sounds cool. I like the Mr. Prospector horses. Can he jump? |
Suzanne Reed
Member
Username: sureed
Post Number: 83
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 - 11:34 pm: | |
Gwen,
How old is this horse, how much was he raced, how long have you ridden? This information will help you know what you are dealing with and how to approach your issues. Again, the info regarding your horse is available at equineline.com. It would also help you to know when he was gelded. A friend at my training barn rides an OTTTB in jumpers. The horse is a handful and I swear has flashbacks to his racecourse years. I also suspect that he was gelded late and may even not have been completely gelded as he seems to have plenty of testosterone flowing. He is particularly interested in the mares in our barn. When we are working out in the field he will sometimes take off at a dead gallop and it takes her several rounds to bring him back. I believe he is having flashbacks to his racing days. These race horses have histories and experiences we don't know about. The more you know, the more you can bring your horse forward in its training. I don't know that much about Mr. Prospector as I don't own any of his offspring, but you should see what you can find out about his temperament and progeny. I am standing a TB stallion from Great Britain and consulted with a Bloodstock Agent about his prospects as an American race horse sire (of which he had a dim view). It was amazing what he could tell me about the various lines, their temperaments and soundness issues.
I wish you great success with this horse. I am devoted to TBs and though I am breeding Warmbloods I am bringing forth the TB in my lines.
I still strongly advise that you find a trainer willing to both ride and instruct you on how to ride this horse.
Suzanne |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 612
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 6:42 am: | |
Suzanne, he has been off the track for a year. He was also gelded a year ago, although you would NEVER know it. He is a very good boy, and I really don't think of him as a handful. Even when he gets quick, I am not worried that he is out of control. I just want a nice rhythm to ride! He is only four and was not terribly successful on the track. I feel pretty strongly that when gets super quick to the left, he thinks that is how he is supposed to go, because that is what he was taught on the track.
Once again, I love your idea Elizabeth. I will try that. I have my Sally Swift book out again (I brought it out about a month ago), and her visualizations are so helpful. I have been practicing thinking of myself as one of those weebles that don't fall-that helps me with my center. This boy has definitely taught me how to ride better already.
I don't know if he can jump, but like I have said before, he has a beautiful stride (when he relaxes and settles). |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 1347
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 7:28 am: | |
Gwen, to answer your question: yes, it's a green horse thing, compounded by his former career and the lack of a highly skilled rider helping him and you.
He sounds like such a sweetheart of a horse and I am certain that with time, you and he will progress. The question to you is: how patient with your trainer are you willing to be? I get the sense that she is selling you a bit short and that her lack of openess and ideas is hindering your progress.
It's difficult to change trainers, particularly if the trainer is a friend. I went through this shortly after I started riding (twice, actually). Both times, the decision to switch trainers was agonizing. However, the more I read, the more I learned that I wasn't learning what I should be learning...so, considering the price of a horse & care and the hourly fee of a trainer, I switched. The friendship survived...and my learning curve moved forward in leaps and bounds.
Good luck! |
CherylA
Member
Username: canderso
Post Number: 403
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 8:42 am: | |
Hi Gwen,
As usual I am late coming into the discussion ... here are some thoughts:
Earlier you said "I do not want a robot who picks a rhythm and does not deviate."
OH, YES YOU DO!!!!
I realize I am being really blunt here but this is a really important point.This is EXACTLY what you want! Rhythm is the foundation of all training.
A horse has his own natural rhythm and goes best at his own rhythm. The trick is to find that rhythm and to ride him to it. Is it the first rhythm he offers? Probably not; it is the rhythm where he is going forward and things suddenly become easy. So find that rhythm and use your posting (and metronome!)to ride him to it.
It will take time for him to build up the strength to sustain this rhythm - and there is a rhythm to every gait, right?
Next, you talked about how "He wants to get quick" and "When I circle, I find that he drops that shoulder more and motors."
Rhythm will change because of balance issues. Balance issues occur for a lot of reasons, including riding the horse in an unnatural rhythm, rider position, and, in the end, the horse not having enough strength.
So if you understand the rhythm and are a good enough rider to tell when he is losing balance and put him back into the rhythm so he doesn't lose balance (without losing your own balance!), bit by bit he will build up strength.... and you will see that the rhythm/balance problems slooowly go away.
This is hard to fix and it takes time but my gut agrees that September to now and still the same issue is not a good thing. Are you training your horse or teaching him being unbalanced and rushing around is the right thing to do?
Now don't go thinking I am this wonderful rider or anything - I am TERRIBLE. I can put rhythm and relaxation and a wee bit of balance on a horse but that is pretty much where my abilities end.
The upside of being such a bad rider is that I can tell you the "me, trainer, able rider" approach to training a horse WORKS - and is so much kinder to the horse I would not do it any other way.
If you are going to change trainers, then take your time and really look for someone who is going to take you where you want to go. Make sure they have credentials, make sure they can PROVE they can move riders & horses through the levels, make sure they are still doing it NOW and, well, if the price freaks you out a bit, consider the ratio of $ to results you have right now. Sometimes paying that extra $10 or $15 a lesson opens a completely different universe. (Though, in my experience, many not so good trainers charge MORE than the really good ones!!!)
Good luck! |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1656
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 9:57 am: | |
'''I am inclined to agree with you about training rides helping him, but I am really stuck between a rock and a hard place because she doesn't want to ride him, but also can't think of anyone that she recommends for the two months she is gone.'''
'''and trainer thinks I am being unreasonable about my expectations'''
I strongly suggest you find someone for these two months that comes highly recommended and will ride your horse.. then lets see how unreasonable you have been..
Call your local Dressage society for some input..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Lori
Member
Username: maggienm
Post Number: 627
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 11:50 am: | |
Gwen, just a thought, sometimes because there is always further to go we just don't notice how far we have come.
To help me in this regard I will write down some of the issues the horse has, give them a rating, and make a note of some specific areas I want to work on and improve.
Sometimes if I really feel stuck I will keep a daily log, it helps me make goals and stay focused, but usually I ma not disciplined enough to write daily.
A benefit to this is being able to look back and see you have come further than you thought.
In your opening post you said he was a turkey on the lunge line.
In order to know how to address this problem you have to know if it was joy at being alive or was it an objection to having to work?
Elizabeths suggestions on posting are great.
Four is pretty young so if he is still a bit uneven in his rhythm it is forgiveable.
It took nearly a year for me to get my TB mare to stop rushing and develope some rhythm, key word
-some-.
It is hard to make a decision without actually seeing what is happening but in general I don't agree with the idea of using more hand to slow down, I would suggest trying shallow serpentines, that is, only travel a few feet one direction then change direction. The purpose here is to use the change of direction to slow him down.
I found this exercise very beneficial, it keeps the pace regular, whe the horse isn't fighting to go faster they can develope rhythm. This also relaxes them so they enjoy their work. When they enjoy their work they relax, when they relax they learn, a very good merry-go-round to be on.
You might spend a half hour doing this at first, persevere. |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 613
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 8:36 pm: | |
Thanks again everyone! You guys are great.
My trainer got on him yesterday, and although she needed to reiterate that she was "right" about her points, she understands why I am asking (begging) for her to ride him. She also reiterated though, that she WILL NOT get on him when he is feeling fresh. I am worried that our relationship may deteriorate from here, but I am not going to stay stuck here. I appreciate that she heard me, and will continue to move forward (but not rush in the trot-heehee).
I do feel that it will be a neat learning experience to try out someone when she is traveling. The trainer I am going with does seem a bit busy with her hands and legs, but that is with a pokey little morgan (who does not seem to mind his job actually). This other trainer has raised babies, and evented with tbs, so she must be helpful, at least at this stage, right? I am thinking that she will be brave, and possibly get him some miles on the trails too, which I am kind of dreading.
BTW, no one knows of any super trainers in southeastern MA right???????? |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1658
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 8:55 pm: | |
Gwen , well at least you made progress with 'the trainer' getting on your horse.. I DON'T like that she WON'T get on when the horse is fresh.. makes me think she is not very competent .. and that leads me to my other thought.. its good that a trainer can get on ones horse to feel what the owner is feeling or not feeling.. If this 'trainer' does not want to get on a fresh horse I am little skeptical on her abilities to ride / feel and to teach.. maybe SHE has confident issues as well.. ?
sorry..
Keep looking..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 614
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 9:07 pm: | |
Ann, she says that at this point in her life, she does not want to put herself in an unsafe position. It is just kind of her personal preference I guess... |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1659
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 9:26 pm: | |
Gwen , i can appreciate that..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 617
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 8:13 pm: | |
Well, I am meeting with a trainer tomorrow. Fingers crossed.
I have a question for you tb lovers. Do you all think that an ottb needs a specialized trainer who knows ottbs? Just curious. |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 316
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 8:28 pm: | |
Others will likely disagree, but I think not. A good trainer will train each horse individually as it is on that day. Some seem gifted with certain types of horses, but OTTB is a training history, not a disease, and they vary quite a bit as their personalities and abilities emerge. Find someone that you enjoy riding with, learn from, and (very important) someone who seems genuinely to like your horse. |
jojo
Member
Username: jojo15
Post Number: 998
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 11:05 pm: | |
I have to jump in... elizabeth is right some of us will disagree.. i wholeheartedly think a trainer that specializes in OTTB is something you should seriously consider. At least talk to one. And tell her what you are going thru and i bet that she will be shaking her head knowing exactly what to do. ( i say she, grin... but could be a man too ).
One year off the track, not much time has evolved. 3 times a week undersaddle? I think you are making giant strides with him. and not giving yourself the credit. I don't like to hear that a trainer won't get on your horse when its "fresh". this is exactly the time you need the help the most.
but, there are just some subtle nuances to these guys that a trainer well versed in OTTB rehabbing is going to know more so than other trainers that don't solely work with them? And this psychological aspect might help you in training him. Is he 5? 6?
Is This a Florida bred horse? Turf bred? There were two breeders i know that loved that line for the sweet disposition. I saw one of them stand live cover a few times so i could learn, and they always told me this is why they have him. Always such a gentleman with the ladies... if you can get the information on him on how he was brought up you might get past these plataues you are having without the need for a new trainer. I researched the show barn mine came from. the owners. how he raced, where, and so on. i learned alot. Because you aren't just training a green horse, you are training a horse that is switching careers. And i do think its confusing to them. It also helps you to understand little things he does and then you can go aha! i get it. and then train accordingly. |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 618
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 - 6:31 am: | |
Jojo, he JUST turned five yesterday (he LOOVES carrot cupcakes)! From what I could find about his past, he ran 18 times, and was not very successful. I think he came in second once. I don't have the list printed in front of me so I am trying to remember the specifics. He was born in Maryland, and raced there-not sure if that is turf or dirt. He was owned by a man named Michael Gill, who apparently got out of racing because he was being blackballed throughout the industry. He was using some questionable practices, both with claiming horses and some say, drugs. So basically in 2006, he got rid of his horses and went back to being a lawyer in NH. So Theo aka Big Poppy, ended up at Rerun Rescue with three others from one of his farms.
He appears to have been handled very well. He is such a gentleman (except when I am too rough when brushing his belly), and wants to please so badly. One thing that made me wonder about the training method though, is his antics on the lunge line. He has actually started to behave much worse than when we started. I know it is winter, and he needs to get his sillies out. But he takes off almost in the same place each time. It is a sort of spook/bolt thing. I don't know. Probably just me overthinking again. |
Fran C
Member
Username: canter
Post Number: 1350
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 - 7:37 am: | |
I dunno, Gwen. My ottb was trained by a lady who didn't specialize. She bought good jumping prospects, regardless of breed, and trained them to win. When I bought him, and through out the time I owned him, he too was a perfect gentlemen in almost every way. No doubt that he would get strong / silly sometimes, but that usually was in response to something I did wrong (I made a lot of mistakes in pure ignorance...he was my first horse).
Certainly, you probably will need to takes things a bit slower because you essentially have to start over with him and "erase" some of his previous training...but he is still a horse and one with a big heart and willingness to please. A good trainer with experience in ottbs couldn't hurt, but I don't see it as essential. |
jojo
Member
Username: jojo15
Post Number: 999
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 - 12:03 pm: | |
my OTTB? nightmare in waiting.. and it wasn't her fault. simple, basic things that just were never taught to her. and i didn't know to "KNOW" and my trainers didn't know to know either, until i found one that LOVED OTTB's they were just right up her alley in terms of challenge.....
On side/off side. there is none in racing. they even pick they're feet from the same side. Tieing? never. saddle in the open? never. Left to her own devices in a pasture? never. RAIN? o my gawd.. never been in a rainstorm. Lunging? hot walker? only to the left. then you have the drugs/pinfiring/high protein feeds/large growth in short amount of time and on and on, who knows?... They are a wonderuful challenge OTTB's... I've only had one. that was more than enough for me.
little things i had to learn to understand her.
How long was he at the rehabbers?
He is 5.. he is barely learning his own balance right now. And i do recall this was an issue with me too. Always so heavy on the forehand. Never got under herself naturally. they want long on the track. We want short and collected. They want power. we want grace. This not only needs to be addressed with a young green horse, but it also needs to go backwards and then restarted with a OTTB. and you have success in a year? you just might have hit a plateau...give it time. he is just a youngin...how's his natural balance? undersaddle? on the lunge? Balance i think is everything. not yours. his. And those off the track have been taught and trained, and muscled in such a way, i think it different than what we then want from them. he has to unlearn one way, and then learn another. i think in a year that is all i achieved.
I also found mine got really bored easily. that is when i would find the trainer getting on her extremely helpful. and she might do that for a week. and me just watching her. She is training the horse? or you? she can't train a horse from the ground. She can train you from the ground. But sometimes getting on and doing it with the trainer and him, will help you and him, that is also something to address...
I also had another horse at the time, that i would learn the maneuver on, train on, understand it, and then work it on the TB. i would get the kinks out with my QH with my own lack of ability. My OTTB was that bored! if we weren't at the same level at the same time? forget it..  we'd plateau and then she'd get rank. it's pschological warfare as much as physical training. :0
Just telling you my experience owning one. what an amazing creature she was...too smart for me, that's for sure. just chill and relax. and don't be in a rush. and talk to as many racing people you can find. if for anything just the ins and outs of what they do to them so young. OTTB's really were never started. not like those that would start a horse for us. it's a whole nother ballgame.
It seems he's a jewel. and willing to try and please. maybe all that is needed is to get inside his head a bit more?
i could go on and on with my experience with mine.. so many memories rushing back... |
Erika L
Member
Username: erika
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 - 12:09 pm: | |
Gwen I remember when you were first considering this horse. Wasn't he the one the rescue called "Fabio" because of his lush mane? Handsome boy, and I remember the gentle temperament was what you liked so much, am I right?
I'm with the majority here in thinking you DO need a trainer who will get on your horse. Sometimes having the rider just do the right cues will be a lightbulb moment for a horse. (And if this is causing you anxiety, not doubt it is for your horse,too!)
The trainer who has a lot of experience in eventing has probably had lots of experience with OTTB's, and can most likely avoid unpleasant triggers. but I don't think it's necessary to have only a trainer who has worked with them. Any good trainer will make the right thing easier than the wrong.
You will probably be surprised what a good one can do with your nice boy once they get on and show him what they want.
Looking forward to hearing about your progress! |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 620
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2008 - 9:29 am: | |
Grrrrr. The new girl has worked with Theo twice now. I love how confident and cool she is...BUT...her hands are reeeaally busy. Theo has definitely been thrown for a loop. I am now torn between thinking that she is too heavy-handed for us, and sitting back and letting her get through these bugaboos. He has done a few scoots/bolts with her, one of which she said was a bit of a tantrum to avoid moving off of her leg. I am worried that the behavior is him feeling trapped by her hands.
So my questions:
Does she need to ride like this to get him to the next phase (she says he will stretch down toward the bit, which he did with her at the walk nicely)?
Am I being too sensitive/protective of him? I think compared to what she is doing, we were doing pony rides (hence the lack of progress)?
THanks guys!! |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 328
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2008 - 10:41 am: | |
Hi Gwen,
Busy how? Can she explain to you what she is doing? Are her hands moving back towards the tail, up, down, sideways? Do you see her release?
If he's walking nicely for her, I might give her some time at the trot, where we know already he's unbalanced and wants to rush.
And, I never have asked, what kind of riding do you plan to do with him?
We have only seen the one photo, so it's hard to second-guess. In that photo, he was inverted with his jaw locked against the bit. If you were re-schooling him for dressage, it would probably require some hand busyness (of the right sort) to convince him to travel with a relaxed jaw, over his topline, and engaged into a contact.
If she's doing yank-and-spank, you'll see a lot of pulling back while driving forward, without the release.
Ask her to explain her approach, and then watch to see if what she's doing seems to match what she says. |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 621
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2008 - 11:19 am: | |
What she had said was that she was working on getting him supple and relaxed. Then rewarding him for stretching into the bit. I don't know that I saw much release, but that could be because he wasn't stretching down. I heard a lot of "good boys", and he was certainly softening in his neck/jaw. One other thing that worried me was how she shrank his stride here and there to the point of him not coming close to tracking up. But again, that could be a step in the learning curve... I do plan to do dressage with him, but also really want to trail ride, so don't want to fry that nice brain he has so far. |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 1669
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2008 - 11:23 am: | |
Can you make a video for us.. ? Busy can be different to different folks..
Of course a horse will boot scoot when asked to work and hope to get away with it..AVOIDANCE, the key is to stay with it and let him know this IS the way of go now..
See if you can get a video and post it on UTube..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
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