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Discussion on New haflinger slings me off, races to barn
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Winifred
Member
Username: winifred
Post Number: 21
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 1:17 pm: |   |
Hi, this may be long, so I'll try not to be chatty. I need advice in a serious way.
I have a paint gelding. He's very sweet, and I rode him comfortably around my property until he developed chronic diarrhea a year ago.
I am 61. I rode in college and in my younger years, but was primarily a dancer in my adult life. I'm very fit, and I have pretty good balance and body awareness, so felt confident that I could ride a horse around my property, nothing fancy, just comfortably riding a nice horse around a little bit, even though, again, I am 61. And relatively new to horses. Except for Buck, my paint.
So three months ago I bought a seven year old Haflinger. He was so cute, and seemed so sweet. He was pushy from the beginning, though, shoving through the stall door once, refusing to lift his feet. With my calm (!?) assertive consistence (I'm not kidding, actually) I managed to make him stop that, and was feeling pretty good about trotting him around the barnyard, sometimes with just a halter, sometimes bareback. Easy, greasy.
The trouble began when a too-loose saddle fell off a month ago, while we were riding in an enclosed area with the gate to the barn left open. I fell off, he galloped madly back to the barn.
The identical thing happened two weeks later, one week ago. I landed on my back, he galloped back to the barn.
Still my fault, I told myself, have to learn how to cinch a saddle on his fat back. So yesterday I decided to hell with the saddle, I'll ride him bareback like I always rode my sweet Buck, and I'll even wear my fancy new hi-tech sticky full seat breeches.
So yesterday we rode gently, mostly walking, around my pond, and as we approached the house, he caught sight of the open (I know!) barn gate and BAM! he twisted sharply to the left, slinging me off to the right just like before, and galloped back to the barn.
Today, I'm sorry, I just don't like him much. I can hardly move, and have offered him back to his previous owner, who may or may not accept him.
Is there anything, other than sell him, that I can do at this point? I'm nervous about getting on him now, which makes things about a thousand times worse.
Thanks so much for anything you can offer.
Winifred |
Chris
Member
Username: stevens
Post Number: 477
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 2:03 pm: | |
Hi Winifred,
The saddle problem may be that it's not wide enough for his "fat back".
That said, I'm 49 and in the process of rehabbing my warmblood who has a tendon injury. He's dumped me twice in the last 3 months. I'm putting up with this only because I realize that he has a ton of pent up energy due to his injury and the personal knowledge that he is fundamentally a very sweet and kind horse. I've considered sending him to a rehab barn for my own safety and am now paying a much younger, bouncier individual to ride him at least twice a week. We just started trot work, so there's a light at the end of my tunnel.
That said, I believe that life is too short and there are too many nice horses out there to put up with bad behavior. This is supposed to be fun. I suspect his previous owner is not surprised by this behavior and were I you, I'd play that up and get my money back.
Short of that, you could decide that you want to keep him and then can invest more money in getting him trained. Then spend the time to build your confidence back up.
Good Luck,
Chris |
jojo
Member
Username: jojo15
Post Number: 1005
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 2:13 pm: | |
winifred.. (love your name btw) 
i think that you are totally normal in thinking that. just sit on it for a bit, if you haven't. is this his only fault? and i wonder if he had it at the last owner's place. barn sour.
If i was in this position, i would think about this...
Do i have the energy and time to retrain this out of him.
is it a longstanding problem or did it just start with me owning him. thereby its something I'm doing, not the horse, and no matter what horse i get it might do the same.
is selling him back and getting another going to help my fearfulness subside??
could these problem encounters be solved in getting a proper saddle? or no matter?
I think i would try to answer these questions as best honestly as i could and then make a decision. i don't think that no matter how good a rider you are, getting on bareback on an unknown horse is a recipe for disaster. unless you can guarentee you aren't coming off.
I did have a horse that i became afraid to ride. first it was under english, then i moved to a western saddle, and then it was just i never rode her anymore...Never once was i as brave as you and would ever get on her bareback...And she is now out... You have to do what is best for YOU and if that entails finding a smaller, older, more genteel horse, than that is what you should do. at 6 years old they still have all that spunk.. if you're goals are a mellow romp around the farm, then an older horse might be a better bet... |
Cynthia G
Member
Username: cgby1
Post Number: 220
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 2:20 pm: | |
Hi Winifred,
I hope you feel better soon. I think that he may have learned a new habit. He is probably a bit lazy and also smart to see an opportunity to go back to the barn. If his back is very round you may need a brest collar and maybe even a crupper strap. Does he have a channel along his back? If so he is too fat. He may be barrel chested with low withers. A trainer named John Lyons says to only ride where you can safely and you need to make sure that gate is closed until you have better control. And be specific in what you want him to do, he is testing you. My family used to have a arab/ welsh cross pony who dumped my sisters and brother. She never did it to me because I always used a saddle and rode proactively. Your haflinger is not a sunday afternoon in the park but he will challenge you to be a better rider. A trainer named Charles Wilhelm up by San Francisco (he has a web site) has a horse that was and still is challenging. You would not know it because he is so well trained but he loves that horse for making him the trainer that he is today. And make sure that you wear a helmut, it will help give you some confidence. You may also want to take some lessons from a trainer, can you find one who will come to your place? I work with a dressage trainer every week and he rides one of my horses while I ride the other.
Cynthia |
Jo Ann Widner
Member
Username: jowidner
Post Number: 51
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 2:38 pm: | |
Ouch! Sorry to hear about your fall. I can relate to your situation. Now that I am "getting long in the tooth" I find falls much harder to shake off. I can also relate to "not liking him much" right now. He's been pretty bratty.
Whether you choose to let him go or continue to work with him is totally up to you. As Chris says, life is short and we do this for fun. He may turn out to be a nice horse for you with some work, but it does sound like you need some help.
The haflinger sounds disrespectful. Is there anyone in your area - teacher or trainer (or both) who could help you with him? I would suggest ground work to create a better relationship with this guy and to reinforce your leadership. I agree that you need to check the fit of your saddle too.
Do some homework and give yourself enough time to regain your confidence before you get back on, maybe a few refresher lessons on a quiet horse would help as well as training for the horse. Don't know if you were wearing a helmet or not, but always wear one. It may just save your life.
Good luck. Hope the new breeches didn't suffer any damage  |
Winifred
Member
Username: winifred
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 4:12 pm: | |
Thanks so much. I loved being reminded that "we do this for fun." Right now, maybe ever since I got him, it isn't. I think I've felt relaxed on his back for maybe fifteen minutes, in three months; that ain't right!
I don't know if his owner will take him back. I'm such a bleeding heart, when she drives up with the trailer, I'm sure I'll fall apart. I only have a three-stall barn though, so if she won't, I'm certainly stuck with this adorable brat until I can find another home for him.
All in all a pretty crummy day......and thank you so much for your input.
Oh, I meant to say one more thing I did right. When I first got him, he wouldn't stand for mounting, and now he does, like a stone. So, he's not all bad. Nor am I.
Winifred |
Terrie Douglas
Member
Username: terrido
Post Number: 20
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 4:14 pm: | |
Winifred, I would just stop riding and start OVEr. A huge fallacy with these types of horses, they are 'sweet and docile' ... yes they can be, but they are horses, and like any horse they do horse things. Which includes bucking and bolting possibly. ;] Also make sure your tack fits correctly, especially with a young horse.
First and foremost what I "hear" in your description is a horse that doesn't know or trust you. And it matters little how long one "has a horse". That doesn't mean they really know you let alone trust you, no matter how long you have 'been together'.
Being in mid-fifties myself, I too wanted a kind, gentle horse cause when I fall off I don't bounce back as quickly. I got a Friesian, and while she is a really sweet horse, she is and was very much a HORSE. Not her fault, of course cause she is a horse afterall. She'd never really been worked with well enough to have good ground manners, you could say she was 'spoiled'. Regardless I of course was a new person and had her at a new place. She had to settle in and we had to get to know each other, learn to trust one another. How you approach this can make a huge difference.
I'd say you are brave for going off riding out but obviously that bravery now has you more afraid. This may be a good thing for you both. Relationships with horses begin on ground. I would just start over from there. Basics, just basics, but he needs to learn to trust you, he needs to learn to have confidence in himself and in you as well. Once a horse basically trusts you the riding experience changes drastically. Unless you are a really good rider with tons of experience and can ride out anything, ya gotta first have a good established relationship. Next you work on a bit of control. A young horse has to be allowed to GO first and then you add in 'whoa'. This can be done easily on a longeline until you are really ready to ride him again.
Working with horses on the ground will build a relationship and will give both of you more confidence in each other. If you don't have much experience here GET some help. I never recommend sending a horse out to a trainer. Sorry, but that usually backfires. Unless of course you can and do go with your horse to said trainer, so you BOTH learn the same things... No, see if you can find a local person to help and work with you both. I recommend you learn to work with your horse under their guidance. This is the best way to 'progress' to being able to ride in confidence.
I started out with my mare on the ground, rode her a bit too soon, she bolted and I came off, spent the next 6 months working on the ground only. I have a fabulous trainer and he spent countless hours with us both working us both thru confidence issues. She with her balance and carrying a rider and me with being on her. When I got back on her it was on longeline. We began with teaching me all of the means to stop her. We even managed after a couple months to progress to having "spooking" lessons where he would purposely spook her a bit and school me on what to do. This helped me gain more confidence in my ability on her. Plus it showed me how she was prone to react to spooky stimulus. Priceless lessons those were even though I was scared to death in many of them. And bless my trainer he knew how frightened I was. When he wasn't sure what Bella would do he would attach the longe line. But mostly even he trusted her to not do anything too stupid.
My bottom line was that after a year of coming off her that day she at one point during a "spook" lesson bolted again BUT she listened to me and as she started her first gallop stride I "asked her to stop" by applying one of the "brake" methods. Each stride I applied this same request a bit more firmly and each time she slowed up more and within 5 strides I had her fully stopped. The difference being first that with my first request to stop, I had her ear, she listened to me the entire time. But we also had established a deep relationship by then too. So as she became frightened she was prone to come to me for direction, trusting that I would be there for her. And of course I was. I was never afraid, which is so not me. I am a devout chicken, and I tend to just go to pure frozen in panic fear right away. If I can do this, anyone can!!
I am a firm believer in building a solid relationship for safety with a horse. If it's yours this is the best way. Not all horses start out as kind and caring of their people. Often we have to earn that.
I have had this girl for a bit more than two years now and I can ride her anywhere because I know she will listen to me when it counts and I also know she won't do anything stupid when I am on her. I recently got brave enough to try her bareback with only a halter (in my arena only!) and only at walk. She is a bit round these days, so it's much like sitting on jello. LOL With me wobbly up there she placed each foot very carefully. Now that's a horse that cares. Two years ago of course I wouldn't have dared to do this, but had I tried I'd have been in the dirt I am sure.
Do yourself and him a favor and go back to ground only and build a relationship and confidence in each other before getting back on him. And then of course make SURE the tack fits well and will not move! Poor boy probably now believes any saddle will slip, that's a horrid fear that will probably take lots of time to unlearn. retrain now. Again, should be done without weight initially. Slow steps, baby steps one at a time.
Haffies can be fabulous horses, they do tend to want to be with people, they do tend to be a bit more "tractable" and gentle. Any youngster though needs someone they know they can count on when they aren't certain. (typical herd behavior) If they know they can count on you that's where they look first. ;)
If you decide to sell him off because you are too frightened to try moving forward with him, you may well find down the road you still have that fear of getting on a strange horse. Most likely any horse you would get might react the same way. In which case you have two options again, 1) get a solid "bomb proof safe with children horse, one you should feel confident in being able to enjoy riding 2) Get help and work through all your (fear) issues and learn. Gain confidence in yourself and with the horse. This would be true whether you keep this horse or get another.
This is all too common a scenario. Ya just cannot beat having a solid trusting relationship and ending up with a horse that wants to take care of you in all kinds of circumstances. Priceless if you plan to keep the horse. And it can happen fairly quickly, doesn't have to take 20 years to achieve.
Some people don't care about longterm and having a horse. For those types then just learning to ride really really well is a plus.
fwiw,
-Terrie |
Winifred
Member
Username: winifred
Post Number: 23
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 4:55 pm: | |
Terrie, thank you so much for that long and thoughtful email. I, too, have wondered about the wisdom of sending a horse off to a trainer; in fact, when my instructor offers to ride him, which of course she can far better than I, I wonder at the benefit of this; it's my horse.
I will think very seriously about keeping him, after reading your post. The few times I've tried to longe him have gone fairly well; sometimes he bucks, with his back feet to me; that feels pretty disrespectful, too!
I do care about him, and understand about longterm having a horse. I really do. I've kept, and will keep, a sick horse for a long time, just because I love him. I am listening to your words carefully, because I'm way too old to learn how ride "really really well" on just any horse. But I do think that I'm capable of riding a horse that I know. I'm just a little shaken up right now, and not at all sure if this one is the one, but appreciate your input, so, so much.
Winifred |
Jo Ann Widner
Member
Username: jowidner
Post Number: 53
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 5:04 pm: | |
Terrie - Thats a great story of courage, understanding, and persistence. Thanks for sharing it!
Winifred - Neither you nor your horse sound "bad" to me. You sound like a very caring person who is wise and secure enough to ask for help when she feels she needs it. Your horse sounds like a smart little horse who is basically just being a horse.
I had one other thought since my last post. There is a woman near Louisa, Virginia who carries saddles for those sometimes hard to fit Haflingers. Let me know if you'd like her name and number - I have it somewhere... |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 432
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 5:12 pm: | |
Hi Winifred.
Ouch! You're getting some great feedback here. I'll add my 2-bits.
First, in my experience, Haflingers are quiet but often extremely stubborn. I don't know where they get their reputation, but I think the hair fakes people out. Or I've just met the stubborn ones.
You said in your post that you just want to ride around and have a nice time, not that you want to train ornery yellow horses. Of course you could fix this many different ways, but the world is also full of lovely horses that would adore the relaxed companionship you offer. So if I were you, I'd go get me one of those horses and enjoy it, and send the yellow thing to someone who wants to deal with it.
No one can do every single thing with horses. I think it's a hard thing to admit that we just don't want to deal with a horse problem, but we do it all the time everywhere else in life. We have mechanics for cars, schools for children, jobs for spouses.... Why on earth risk injury pursuing something that isn't what you wanted in the first place?
So I vote you find something kind and appreciative, and let trouble seek someone who's seeking it.
Best of luck, and let us know what you decide!
- Elizabeth |
Terrie Douglas
Member
Username: terrido
Post Number: 21
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 5:51 pm: | |
Winifred, would you mind much emailing me privately? Pls use: terrie.douglas@sun.com
Elizabeth does bring up a good point in that you do have a choice here, and should seriously think before taking action.
I would like to offer a few suggestions food for thought really, but would rather do privately, not in the forum.
I just want to close with, you have a horse, who is very good at being a horse. Yes there are many lovely horses available, but most likely you will have to go thru the same "initial" period with any new horse, even one that is "bomb proof" may not be in a new environment with a new person. Besides in my experience a vast majority of those touted to be 'bomb-proof' truly are NOT.
You have not had this guy very long, 3 months is nothing in the grand scheme of things. And if he is young, like under the age of 8 then you have that on top of it all. Doesn't mean there isn't hope, there is always hope. Now it's more a matter of your personal choice.
Email me please.
-Terrie |
dieliz
Member
Username: dsibley
Post Number: 102
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 7:40 am: | |
Winifred, your experience reminds me of my first mare, Rosie. She was not fat, just round with no wither. She was impossible to get a good saddle fit. I could cinch her until her eyes nearly bugged out of her head, and the saddle would still slide. It was like riding on a 55-gallon barrel!
Good luck to you...there are several good suggestions here. I enjoy working with mine and training, but if that is not your cup of tea, perhaps moving him on to another home would be best for the two of you. There is nothing worse than having a 'personality conflict' with your horse. |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 1900
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 8:41 am: | |
I have no idea whether you should keep this horse, only a decision you can make. That being said I have an old mare who is "bombproof" she is a arab/welsh cross and the one I always have put beginners on...even when she was 6.
She would "test" every new rider just to make sure they knew how to make her not run them into a low tree branch. She honestly was as bomb proof as they come, but if you failed her small test you would continue to be "sidled" over to the low tree branch. Once the rider could keep her from the low tree branch they were good to go.
You don't sound like a beginner, if I was in your situation I would walk him in hand around the places he bolts, teach him to stand there quietly.
mount take a few steps in the problem area and dismount (before he gets worked up) walk in hand back to the barn stopping and starting, standing quietly.
Bolting is a dangerous habit and if you have lost your confidence...they feed on that. The one rein stop is an essential in every riders tool box..teach your horse that if you can.
Good Luck whatever you decide. |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1633
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 8:57 am: | |
I am going to add something else here that I am very passionate about that may help. I recently got a Equine Massage DVD called "Equine Massage for Performance Horses" by Jim Masterson. It's at Amazon, and his website. His website has a video clip of him working on a horse.
I am just dabbling in this but I am finding it amazing as to how each horse (I have 4) reacts to my touch and how they have like fallen in love with me all over again! I got the DVD to help with a pain issue I couldn't pinpoint, and I am finding the bonding part of doing massage is alone worth it's weight in gold.
So my thoughts are with your guy is do some massage, (it's not hard really) go back to doing basic ground work, and take it slow. In a horses mind, having a new human and home for 3 months isn't that long and he's still adjusting. Be safe and take your time. |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: lhenning
Post Number: 333
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 10:46 am: | |
Winifred,
My horse is young and has given me some hard landings too. I understand the fear issue you are experiencing now. I had similar thoughts about selling my horse and could not imagine getting back on him. That was two years ago.
Everything Terrie says is what worked for me. I took things one day at a time and did ground work for several months. When I got back on him, I was not afraid and I was ready. He behaved like an angel.
I might add in addition to Terrie's excellent post: You mention " I think I've felt relaxed on his back for maybe fifteen minutes, in three months; that ain't right!" I learned that my tension and anxiety is WHAT CAUSED MY PROBLEMS. I can't say that strongly enough. I had to first learn to get control of my anxiety before my guy relaxed and started looking at me as leader. A tense rider is not fluid. A tense rider jumps and startles. Trying to calm down is not enough, you need to be calm. Your horse looks at your tension as a call to alarm. He has no idea he is the cause of your tension, he believes you are anxious because of a threat he does not see.
I read a good book called "Riding With Confidence" which I purchased from Julie Goodnight's webpage. It helped me get a grip on my fear and I learned so much about myself in the process. I still use the techniques and I use them in other parts of my life too. That and time spent on groundwork building trust and bonding with my horse made all the difference. Today I ride him and we are best buddies. I could not imagine selling him. Something about going through the ups and downs and seeing it become successful makes the bond like nothing I have ever known.
I also think you need to step back on the saddle issue. Get one that fits, then work him through his fears without riding him. I hate to say this, but you have created a problem in him due to using a saddle that did not fit. The problem was not there before. It seems irresponsible to not see him through it before sending him on to someone else. Just my thoughts and I am sorry, I do not mean to offend anyone.
Good luck,
Linda |
Erika L
Member
Username: erika
Post Number: 1161
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 10:59 am: | |
Well Winifred, some people enjoy a challenging horse, some do not.
I am one who USED TO like a challenge! Now that I am a Saddlebag, though, and require longer recovery times after the inevitable, occasional fall--I much prefer a horse that is a bit more tractable.
You may have an ideal situation. If the seller will take this horse back and can sell him to someone who likes a challenge, then you both win.
I disagree that you will always have a problem with every horse. We have all known those perfect ladies/gentlemen of horses, and they are out there! |
Chris
Member
Username: stevens
Post Number: 478
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 11:00 am: | |
None of us knows whether or not this particular horse had a "problem" or a history of this behavior. This horse may have been sold to Winnifred without the benefit of full disclosure; we don't know and it's not like "that" doesn't ever happen.
There is nothing irresponsible about finding a more suitable horse for oneself or sending a horse on to a more suitable home, of course with full and honest disclosure. In fact, I view that as extremely responsible.
Winnifred, whatever you decide to do is what's right for you. |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: dtranch
Post Number: 604
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 11:37 am: | |
Winifred ... A lot of good advice above. I am a firm believer that we first must establish a bond of mutual trust and respect with any horse on the ground before we move on. This is the foundation for all that follows, if there are holes in the foundation, they will always show up at the worst times. I tell all my people that if you want to get really good in the saddle, you got to get your feet really dirty first. Lots of meaningful groundwork to establish Control and Confidence between you and your horse, whether you keep this horse or move on to another.
As a trainer,I start every horse with this program whether it is a 3 year old that has never been handled, or a 15 year old veteran. They all need a good foundation. I often get the so called "problem" horse that bucks, bites, rears, bolts, or whatever. I have found that in nearly every case, when I start with the foundation work and get really good with the horse on the ground, the original "problem" has disappeared and we never really worked on it at all. Most problems are not because the horse is just bad .. it is usually due to a fear or a lack of understanding as to what is being asked. These ground exercises set up the communication process quite well and transfer to the saddle.
Whether you keep this horse or move on to another, please make a commitment to establish a meaningful ground program with your horse. The best thing about getting really good at a series of ground exercises is that both you and your horse will gain confidence and a true partnership with each other. These are the horses that will "save" you in bad situations instead of creating them.
DT |
Winifred
Member
Username: winifred
Post Number: 24
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 12:25 pm: | |
Well, I still have him. The seller has not returned my call, so that doesn't look like a possibility anyway.
Plus, I did go out yesterday and work with him some in the round pen...and we WALKED back to the barn, and he was fine with that. He does seem like a very nice guy, which is one reason why (this may sound stupid) it hurt my feelings so, for him to toss my like that, then bolt back. If he had bolted WITH me, it somehow wouldn't have been as crummy!
I hear what you say, Linda, that it may have been my illfitting saddle that created the problem. It's actually not a saddle, but a bareback pad with stirrups. I have had a teacher for several weeks, and she said it was perfect for him. It is the truth that, perfect or not, it was not cinched properly. I have a saddle for Buck, that is simply not wide enough for Mack (the tossing horse); I feel perched, and that is no fun.
The confidence issue is very real, especially now, and I see how many of you understand that. I'll look for the book that Linda, I thnk, suggested, but I don't understand how you can not just act calm, but feel calm, when you remember how a horse flung you off like you were nothing.
I'm still in a lot of pain, so am not as positive as I may be tomorrow. Landing on my back twice in a week is not good for my spirits!
I think I'm capable of training a horse to do lots of things, and I know I'd like it. Training a horse not to toss me and bolt might just require tons more guts than I have.
This whole thing makes me sadder than I can say, for many reasons, including the fact that he and my sick Buck have become such friends. They gallop together, nuzzle each other. It's sweet
I'm considering every thing that you so kindly have offered, and have read all the posts several times. Thank you..I really, really appreciate your advice and support.
Winifred |
Winifred
Member
Username: winifred
Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 12:42 pm: | |
p.s.
How can I learn the absolute basics of ground training, that so many of you have suggested?
Winifred |
Wiley Gillmor
Member
Username: wgillmor
Post Number: 92
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 1:12 pm: | |
Hi Winifred,
How you learn the absolute basics of ground work depends, to some extent, on how you learn. If you are good at learning from books, that is probably the least expensive way. There are lots of good alternatives, but I happen to like the Problem Solving books by Marty Marten. Other members will have other good recommendations.
If videos work for you there are lots available there. Again, there will be good recommendations from other vendors.
You may need to go to clinics or have a local trainer that specializes in ground work (particularly Natural Horsemanship) come work with you. I don't know who works in Virginia regularly, but...
Finally, the best (but most expensive) method is to hire Dennis Taylor and fly him in. Alternatively, you could go to the Horse Advice Vacation in Kansas and probably get more advice than you know what to do with.
Good luck,
Wiley |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: lhenning
Post Number: 334
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 1:24 pm: | |
So many good people to learn from, but it depends on your finances and time. Videos are great but more expensive. Books and the internet are cheaper but take longer to absorb. If you get RFD-TV on your satellite or cable, check out Parelli, Clinton Anderson, Chris Cox, and Julie Goodnight. Frank Bell has a great webpage and techniques that are very easy to learn.
Here are a couple webpages I found helpful when learning groundwork.
http://www.kbrhorse.net/pag/train.html Scroll down the page to sections Basic Behavior and Principals and Basic Training Approaches
http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/training.shtml Click on links along the side of this page.
I used this book chapter by chapter, start to finish. Excellent results and very fun for both horse and handler.
http://www.amazon.com/Clinton-Andersons-Downunder-Horsemanship-Establishing/dp/1 570762848/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205256038&sr=8-1
Linda |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 587
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 2:01 pm: | |
Winifred, I just want you to know I agree with Elizabeth's assesment of the Haflinger and don't feel guilty if you like to sell and buy another one for yourself as he is a nice young guy he will find his way.
Just one other suggestion when I was in a similar situation my confidence got much bigger after yes first groundwork with the'problem'horse but after that riding together with a friend with the friend on the horse that frightened me and me on another one. It gave me confidence to see how he behaved under the saddle and on a trailride.
Jos |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: dtranch
Post Number: 605
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 2:35 pm: | |
Winifred .. If confidence is your goal and you go looking for it, you won't find it. You will gain it bit by bit with each success you and your horse have on the ground, and later in the saddle. It all builds upon itself, and when you get it, you won't have to ask, you will just feel it.
Wiley ... thanks for the nice comments. Will we be seeing you in Kansas?
DT |
Jo Ann Widner
Member
Username: jowidner
Post Number: 56
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 3:05 pm: | |
Winifred, the emotional impact of a fall can be pretty great. Its funny, there are some falls that don't really effect us that much, and then there are those that really rock our world, even though there may not have been a serious physical injury.
When I read your posts, I really get a strong sense of the disappointment with what's happened with your new horse, and that makes perfect sense to me. Its a lot like the "honeymoon is over." You know, you meet this great guy, you dream of all kinds of great times together, and then WHAM, reality sets in, and you realize that he's not prince charming, but just an ordinary very real guy with strengths and weaknesses like all of us.
Then there is the loss of riding your old horse, with whom you have a trusting relationship, but can no longer ride due to his illness, so there is grief there.
Finally to top it all off, there is the trauma of the fall. I've had a fall like you describe, one where I truly realized the physical dangers of riding and working around horses. Even the smallest horse or pony is a large and powerful animal, and this needs to be recognized for our own safety and survival.
After I got over the initial trauma of that particular fall, I had to do a lot of work to return to the saddle. I read a lot, talked with other riders, took lessons, found a quieter horse to rebuild my confidence, became a smarter rider, and even did some EMDR to "reprocess" the event. I learned how to work with my breathing and release muscle tension to create calm when I felt scared. One of the most helpful things I did was to work with my comfort with falling itself, learning how to release into a fall and not tighten at the thought. (That sounds like it required a lot of athleticism - it really didn't, believe me!)
By the way, I did sell that horse to a rider who wanted a challenge. My new horse came with her own set of problems to be resolved, but they were things that were in my league so to speak.
So give yourself some time. This all makes a great deal of sense to me. You are certainly not alone, and your dream of enjoyable rides on a horse that you love is not out of reach.
BTW, where are you in Virginia? |
Sarah Blanchard
Member
Username: sarahb47
Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 3:47 pm: | |
Winifred,
I've been reading all these wonderful posts and basically agree that you do need to work on building confidence, trust and respect -- BOTH ways. Your horse needs confidence in you as the wise leader, and he also needs consistent education and training in respect so that he consistently makes the right decision for you.
When we work with young horses, we basically have to micromanage their behavior with a lot of close attention, hands-on communication, consistent feedback and a lot of repetition, so the horse is so certain and comfortable with what's expected that he's absolutely reliable in familiar circumstances, and can make the right decisions to keep you both safe in unpredictable circumstances.
Your horse isn't there yet, obviously. There's no substitute for hours and hours of training. When someone tells me their horse has had 6months of training, I always ask, "how many hours of positive training is that?" Just because a horse is 7 or 8 years old doesn't mean he's received more training (or better-quality training) than the 3 or 4 year old.
Start with any of the books or DVDs mentioned here. (You can also read my book, Power of Positive Horse Training). Then move on to the book "Bombproof Your Horse." A good one for your own skills development is Gincy Bucklin's "How your horse wants you to ride."
And, by the way, I would NEVER use a bareback pad with stirrups. There's no way you can cinch it tightly enough to keep it in place on ANY horse when you put weight in a stirrup, much less one with a round back. Use a bareback pad ONLY without stirrups!
A treeless saddle with a breast collar might work. Someone suggested a crupper -- but if your horse hasn't been carefully introduced to a crupper, that's another training issue that must be dealt with, as most horses hate the feeling of the crupper under the tail and it takes time for them to get used to it.
So, build the trust and respect relationship on the ground. You've started nicely with foot handling, so you can do it! Make sure he doesn't barge through gates or doorways ahead of you, drag you to a patch of nice grass, pull away or lag behind when you lead him. You'll have to stay on his case a lot at first, but also remember to reward whenever he's doing what you want. (NOT necessarily food rewards, but release-of-pressure and rest breaks and praise touches and a "yes" voice.)
Good luck! Sounds like he's actually a nice boy, just lacking a few of the basics.
Sarah |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1634
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 5:05 pm: | |
Winifred,
If you've been reading on here for awhile, you've probably saw a post or 2 about my Tango. This horse scared the life outa me darn near just by jumping on me and knocking me over! And I am still not riding him and he's going to be 6. Point is, if he's not ready, he's not ready and it's up to us to figure out what is making a horse do what he does, and how to resolve it. (hoping massage helps relax him) Baby steps, baby steps. It's always better to do things slow and correctly and enjoy the journey. Just remember to keep safety in mind; I had my helmet on when I got knocked over which was nice when my head crashed down, but if I would have gotten a hoof in my chest, nothing would have saved me then. And I was more scared after that than I ever was from being dumped off a horse. (and I have been dumped lots of times) WHY? Because it was soo innocent...just standing there after a ground work session.
BTW, I use a treeless saddle on Tango, he's got the build of a Freison which he's a quarter of. I ALWAYS use a breast collar with the treeless saddle. Even then, I've had it go on him off to the side, so I added a good non slip pad and cinch too. Can't be too careful!
Hope I didn't scare you more. I figure I'll probably break my neck going down the stairs and missing the last steps which I do on occasion, not get myself killed by a horse. It's all a matter of perspective, doing to gain confidence as DT suggested, and remember, you can never learn too much about this horse training/riding stuff! |
Julie Masner
Member
Username: juliem
Post Number: 390
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 9:20 pm: | |
Right On Wiley!! (Where you been lately Bud??) Winifred, as you can see, we're all proponents of ground work--none of that "ride 'em through it" stuff for us! I too really like the books by Marty Marten--Problem solving 1 and 2. They aren't expensive and I got one of them a few years ago at Costco! They are much simpler and straight forward than some of the others. I learn better from books than videos, but that's an individual thing. Ebay is a great source for videos. Wow, it would be so great if you could go to Kansas this spring--have you seen that thread? Take your time, you don't have to make this decision right now. And if you do some ground work with this boy, he will be a better sale prospect if you decide not to keep him. When I've had people come to look at my young horses for sale, they are astonished at how "broke" they are--before they've been ridden! Of course, they are quarter horses-hee hee. |
Karin from Colorado
New Member
Username: karind10
Post Number: 5
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 12:08 pm: | |
Winifred - I hope you are feeling better today. Being thrown does hurt us physically and mentally, and it takes time to recover from both. I hope you will allow yourself that recovery time.
There are many wise posts here, and much for you to think about. I think mostly it's important to realize that what your horse did in his mind was simply a matter of self-preservation; and it's really no different for him to overcome his fears than it is for you. Both of you don't want to get hurt, and both of you have been stressed by situations that made you fear for your safety. He is now afraid because of his bad experience, just as you are. And he will need time and practice to recover, just as you do.
I don't believe he was disrespectful. In most cases, I try to stay away from branding any behavior with negative wording like disrespectful, lazy, stubborn etc. To me, that's anthropomorphizing our horses too much. It's just my way to wonder instead what caused the behavior and how to train him to do differently next time. I hope you will reconsider the idea that your feelings should be hurt by his behavior. When fear takes over, there's nothing in a horse's behavior except how to get safe, that's all it is.
A bit similar to Dennis, I always tell people that it's best to spend more time on the ground standing in your boots working with your horse than time on the ground on your back watching your horse hightail it back to the barn.
There are many good offers here about groundtraining, I like Julie Goodnight very much, and also Mark Rashid (his Groundwork and Ground Driving DVDs are very very good).
I hope you will let us know how it goes, whatever you decide. Only you can make the decision about how to go forward, and what is best for you and your horse. Good luck! |
Winifred
Member
Username: winifred
Post Number: 26
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 2:30 pm: | |
Thanks, all of you. Jo Ann, thanks for your most empathetic post; it has been a rough few days, and I appreciate your compassion.
But, so as not to appear whiny, I will tell you that I did take him to the round pen late yesterday, and longed him for a while, and then dropped everything and he followed me around the bigger area like a puppy. Then I lead-roped him up again and WALKED back to the barn, and all was well.
I know that to characterize a horse as "disrespectful" is probably not a good idea, but I can't shake the memory of, after a most peaceful little ride, that he would catch sight of that open gate and toss me off to gallop back to it. I don't see how fear entered into his doing that, whatsoever; he just wanted me off.
At this point, I don't think that I have the guts or the skill or the patience to correct this kind of behavior; it's a lot bigger and more dangerous than teaching him to stand for mounting.
I feel worse, physically, today than yesterday; I think it's a three day thing. But tomorrow I'll take him back up there and do some ground work with him. I don't know yet how I feel about keeping him.
Thank you all.
Winifred |
Chris
Member
Username: stevens
Post Number: 482
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 2:47 pm: | |
Epsom salts are a staple in my bathroom. A nice hot soak, even 3 days after the event, and a nice glass of wine or small batch bourbon works for me.
Hang in there,
Chris |
Karin from Colorado
Member
Username: karind10
Post Number: 6
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 3:15 pm: | |
Winifred - I do understand certainly that many people see this differently. As I see it, horses work on an instinctual basis, with a lot of that instinct about fleeing potentially dangerous situations. In many ways, especially in early training, riding itself can be considered by the horse to be one of those situations. If you add a frightening experience (the pad slipping, the rider falling& | |
