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Discussion on Biting
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Mary Persons
Member
Username: unity
Post Number: 27
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008 - 2:01 pm: |   |
I have two mares; one is six, the other is 5.
When I purchased the 5-year old last August, she was as sweet as you could imagine. You could pet her anywhere, face, head, neck and she'd love it.
She and the other mare bonded immediately; no kicking, biting, etc. I'm sure they did it somewhere along the line, because the older mare is definitely the alpha.
Since about November, the younger one started to become more aggressive when I approached her during her feeding... (I used to be able to pet her while she was eating her hay and she didn't mind at all), as did my other mare. Suddenly, she started putting her ears back and tried to bite me. I quit doing that.
Then, one day, I was out near the barn and she mosey up to me, and bent her neck down to get a piece of hay on the ground and I reached out to pet her and she bit me HARD on the leg!! I hit her in the shoulder twice; I was so startled and in such shock.
Since then, she has attempted to bite me a few more times; always when I try to pet her face or neck. She almost made it one time, but I slapped her face (I know; a huge no-no; ;again it was a reactive thing).
My question is two-fold: one, what is the correct thing to do if she does that, and how can I break her of it?? She follows me around the yard when I'm out, and acts like she is seeking attention....I can actually "pet" her with my carrot stick, and she doesn't mind that at all.
Also, my older mare seems almost possessive of my husband and I. When we, or one, of us is out there, the older one chases the younger one away. Are horses territorial with their humans??Being new to horses, it is a little surprising.
One more thing; this behavior (of the younger one) seemed to start when my husband began giving them carrots everytime he went out there. I told him not to do it, but he did anyway, which didn't create a problem with the older horse, but seems to have in the younger one.
Help???? |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 449
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008 - 8:01 pm: | |
Sounds like major dominance behavior. These the same mares from prior threads? If so, the earlier training advice would apply to this situation as well. |
Mary Persons
Member
Username: unity
Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 1, 2008 - 11:46 pm: | |
Yes, they are the same two mares. My guess was that it was a dominance thing as well. But why suddenly start to display it after she'd been here two/three months? Because she finally felt comfortable? although she seemed to adjust just fine right off.
And when she displays her teeth to me, or acts like she is going to bite me, is there an immediate correction I can take and what would that be? Smacking her doesn't seem right. And she isn't always like this either; nor does she try to attack me or charge after me. She actually follows me around the paddock, curious about everything I'm doing. I do not sense real meanness in her. I would like to be able to train her out of this negative behaviour on my own, as there are no horse clinicians within a couple of hundred of miles where I live. So pretty much what I'm learning is through Clinton Anderson's books and tapes, along with a couple of others on RFDTV.
My other question was, is my older horse acting possessive of my husband or myself when she won't let the younger one near us? Or, what kind of behavior is that? We can keep her away from us when we are brushing the younger one by showing her the carrot stick. She stops dead in her tracks. But you can see she'd love to get the other one to leave so she can be in her spot.
I just was curious about that kind of behavior. Does it happen with anyone else on this board? How do you handle it?
With warmer weather finally starting to arrive, I hope to be out there more often working with them. It's been a long and bitterly cold winter here, and I haven't been able to work with them since October. } |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1646
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 7:17 am: | |
Mary,
I think everything that you are describing is very typical mare behavior, although not all mares act that way of course. I have a 19 year old mare, I've had since she was 2. And a 6 year old mare, that we bought as a yearling. The younger mare, she was a little skeleton when we rescued her, and seemed really sweet. As she got in better condition and got older, the "marish" behavior started. Even now, she is being very pushy with me, and will run me right over when going to her stall. I am making her stop, and stand, with a twine over her nose for some bite, and then I allow her a step, then stop, etc. It takes awhile to get to her stall, but it focus her attention on me. As soon as the snow goes down in the round pen, we'll be back out there and do more ground work.
Since she's starting running to and from her stall, (this is just going through one stall, and crossing a 12' aisle) the older mare has started to do it also. She won't run me over, at least she's never shown any indication of wanting to, but the are both trying to be boss for sure. And yes, they are both worse around me. And they both want the attention of one of the geldings, and hate the other gelding!
Interestingly, the older mare wasn't like that until I started her on a Selenium and E supplement a few months ago. She was rather "blah" and apparently the S & E was something she lacked, and she has perked up from it. And gotten very "marish" also.
I think horses do change at times, and right now it just might be hormones are stronger with spring being here. (Ya right, don't look like spring outside at all!...HEY, I just checked your profile, you are from MN....so I am I, but I live in Upper MI now. I know you don't have spring yet either, I remember those winters all too well)
As for their behavior when you are working with one can you remove the other one? With the way they are acting, I wouldn't want to groom one with the other loose near by. Even if they are tied side by side, I'd be careful as they can and will kick and strike at each other and you.
I think Clinton's methods will help with your mares; just keep an open mind and if remember his way isn't the only way, but many of his ground techniques are wonderful for pushy animals. You may find though, that working one on one with each mare, that she may be a perfect angel and focus on you, only to act up again when the other one is nearby!
I've taken to carrying a buggy whip with me when putting hay out, and have had to smack the younger mare with it a few times. Just having the whip keeps the other mare away...I see I have some work to do there. I always rub all the horses all over with the whip after the hay is spread out to assure them it's o.k. for the whip to be there. Always be careful not to solve one problem and create another. |
Lyne Daoust
Member
Username: elzedor
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 9:23 am: | |
Hi,
I have a 2 year old stallion that just came in for boarding and he's a real "pacman". He keeps trying to bite everything and everyone that comes into reach. I've been trying a lot of things with him like giving him extra attention to the head, and that seemed to work a little bit, to show him we can be loving, but not quite enough. Then I tried to work with the stick (like Clinton Anderson) and guess what, I improved his manners by 90%. Don't think I'm rough with the stick cause I'm not, I use it as an extension of my arm. I gained respect from the horse, just with one session. Lets say that the horse hit the stick by himself when he came into my bubble (like Clinton Anderson says: the horse thinks "Oh my god I just hit myself with that stick, I've got to be more careful". I'm careful not to look at the horse when I do that then I rub the horse with the stick and with my hand. I also brought the feed with the stick in hand and was surprised of the respect I got. I actually got the backing off, and the lowering of the head, then I put the feed down petted my horse and then he had the permission to eat.
All these techniques are good, but you need to add one thing to all the training and that is your attitude. You have to become the leader of the heard, you need to be the dominant horse. You are the one who gets the feed first, I keep them away for a couple of seconds from the feed and I actually stand over it. The dominant horse eats first and then the other ones get to come.
I think that you need to become the leader for the two mares, causes I don't think that they're fitting for your attention, but fitting for their position in the heard. If you show them you are first then they'll take their place and stop acting up. I think it's John Lyons that said if needed make them think they will die for 3 minutes and then leave them alone.
Show them you are the boss first and then love them, they will become better horses.
Finally, I'm glad someone in the US has some snow cause here in eastern Quebec, I think will have snow till May. Good luck with you mares
Lyne |
Mary Persons
Member
Username: unity
Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 10:25 am: | |
Where I live, it is winter from end of October until May......even then, it's been known to snow in June!!! So, as I am not fortunate enough to have an indoor arena, horse-training season is pretty short! But, I am determined!
Neither mare bothers me when I put hay out for them; they both stay their distance until I put the hay in their feeder, and then the dominant mare (Rosie) comes over, starts to eat, and after a couple of minutes, the younger mare, Seven (I didn't name her, but it's another long story!!), starts to eat. I can pet Rosie while she's eating, no problem, but with Seven, watch out!! So I don't. But I do stand there and just watch them for a few minutes.
Anyway, it's Seven that tries to bite when I stroke her neck or face; ears go way back, and she snakes her head and tries to bite. She wasn't this way AT ALL when I first got her. But, maybe because of it being winter, and not spending hardly any time with them (it was TOO COLD, sub-zero with wind almost all the time!!), maybe that's where the problem started??
But, she does seem to like to be petted with the carrot stick, oddly enough. That's ok; it's when I use my hand that she gets "snakey". Despite all of this, I don't feel that she is a "mean" horse..I sense she really is a good horse, just not trained. (Though when I bought her, she was sold as "kid, husband safe", and she certainly seemed to be.
Sorry to make such a long letter, but I have been so worried about it. Thanks for the help; I will definitely put the advice to work and see if that doesn't make a difference. From what I've read, it did seem like mare-ish behavior, but I really wasn't sure.
Thanks again! |
LL
Member
Username: frances
Post Number: 594
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 2:47 pm: | |
Hi Mary,
When the younger mare snakes her head, pins back her ears and threatens to bite, have you tried making yourself LOOK BIG, i.e. squaring up to her, drawing yourself to your full height, perhaps raising your arms above your head and just standing there glaring furiously at her? You have to really mean it of course.
I've found doing this can make certain kinds of hostile horse turn in a nanosecond into a "let's be friends", ears pricked, soft-eyed pushover. (With a really hard-core aggressor this might not work however.)
Good luck with your horses. |
Julie Masner
Member
Username: juliem
Post Number: 402
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 4:51 pm: | |
Lynn, it was John Lyons, but it wasn't three MINUTES--it's three SECONDS! Big difference when you're going after a horse aggressively enough to make them think they're going to die! |
Cyd Schlotzhauer
New Member
Username: shadow08
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 7:23 pm: | |
I used the 3 second rule on my daughter's horse last week who tried to bite me and it was amazing.(he got my sleeve and a little pinch) He didn't want much to do with me afterwards. Then later, he was friendly but cautious. He hasn't tried to bite me again.
Only one problem....he was stalled and I was afraid for 3 seconds that he might kick me, but I kept out of his way (while I took the handle of the scooper and smack him again and again on his rump) and tried to be as mean and scary as I could muster up.
This was hard for me to do because I'm not a mean, violent, person, but I had just read what John Lyons had said and I'm tired of her horse trying to bite. |
Lyne Daoust
Member
Username: elzedor
Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 2, 2008 - 8:52 pm: | |
Thank you Julie for putting me back on track, when you think of it, it does seem like an awful long time... When I applied the John Lyons technique, I don't recall counting time and it was probably closer to 3 seconds than 3 minutes, but thanks for telling me. I will make sure to let him think he is going to die for only 3 seconds.
Lyne |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20380
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 3, 2008 - 6:19 am: | |
Hello Everyone,
We have our own take on correcting nipping that does not require a stop watch and you can read it at, Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses.
DrO |
Alden Chamberlain
Member
Username: alden
Post Number: 484
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 11:21 am: | |
Timing is everything when it comes to equine/human interaction and training. But timing is useless if there isn't consistency  . Really there is no timing without consistency.
Meanness or nor violence are traits a person needs to be able to walk through a herd as the one, the only, the most dominant. Timing, pressure (maybe physical in the beginning), and consistency are required.
Sometimes I think consistency should get more emphasis, but in the end timing wins every time. It's the most difficult and important concept in training, hence the most difficult to learn.
Good day,
Alden |
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