Use the navigation bar above to access articles and more discussions on this topic.
| Author |
Message |
    
Douglas Wozny
New Member
Username: Socaldug
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |   |
Ask 5 people, get 10 different answers. I'm getting conflicting answers around home and looking for at least, a quorum 
2 year old belgian. ~15 hh ~1000#. Been doing halter stuff since 1 month old. Total lap dog. I've been ground driving and lunging for about a month; doing very well (for a youngster anyway). I pony him up with a saddle on him, sometimes lay across his back for about 10 seconds, he just doesnt care. Stares at me as if to say "gotta carrot?". I'm itching to start riding him!!! I just dont want to injure anything. If it makes a difference, I'm kinda lightweight; about 6-1 and 180#.
I've heard that Anheiser Busch doesnt start their clydes until 4, Vet tells me 2-3, friends say "he's big enough", somewhere i read "draft knees cant handle it at 2", local trainer says "that moose can hold both of us!".
Any draft people have some suggestions for me?
Thanks in advance
doug |
Karen Nolte
Member
Username: Morg1
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:13 pm: | |
I'm not a draft horse person, but I personally wait until my horses are at least three sometimes four before I ride them, because I feel that they are more mature emotionally as well as physically. I also know of a trainer in our area that has a vet ex-ray young horse's knees to see if they are done growing yet before he begins training, but his dad is a vet(so he comes by is rightly). If you are unsure, I wouldn't risk his knees and possible future unsoundness, but I'm sure that he is huge since he's a draft so maybe light work wouldn't hurt him. I've seen people riding horses that aren't two yet which I strongly oppose, so I know what you mean about getting different answers from every person you ask. So here's another one. |
Lori
Member
Username: Maggienm
Post Number: 65
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:36 pm: | |
Hi Doug,
I have draft crosses and there is no way I would do any more work than what you have described until three or older.
I know how hard it is to wait esp when others are saying go ahead but the way I look at it is if I wait an extra year or bit more on this end I will gain several more years on the other end.
I have just started a 4yr draft/TB cross who is nearly 16h but it really isn't the size it is the joint closure that makes a difference.
The bonus to waiting is once you start you don't have to stop and wait for them to finish growing.
imho |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 662
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:04 am: | |
Irish drafts are started at 3 years at the earliest - depends on the horse. If big and not grown into themselves it will be 3.5 or 4 years.
Imogen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12830
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 8:42 am: | |
The problem Douglas is there is no research specifically on this and I am always surprised as to how this discussion always takes an either/or flavor when there are a million degrees of in between. We do know, too much work and you get arthritis and too little and a horse does not develop as strong as it might. We just do not know what constitutes too much and too little.
I would caution you about lunging developing horses, this is something I have seen associated with osteo-arthritis in 2 year olds and believe the uneven pressure across the joint surface created by the small circle responsible. Research may show I am full of it however. You cannot do harm with ground driving as you will wear out long before he does and it does not have the sharp turns as lunging. Neither do I believe crawling up on his back and walking about likely to do any harm at all, but light work should probably wait a year and serious work 2, at least until we know more.
DrO |
Douglas Wozny
New Member
Username: Socaldug
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:43 am: | |
Excellent thoughts! Thanks to everyone. It's starting to sound like waiting is safer for him.
Dr. O, I have also heard that lunging can be bad, especially when done with a halter and single rope. Something about improper head position, leaning and bending.
I only lunge with dual lines, snaffle, and sursingle using the side rings, in a 50 to 60 foot area. The lunge is limited to "walk" "trot" and "whoa's"; trotting being limited to 2 or 3 laps in each direction (his "whoa" kinda sucks at the moment). we do this 3ish times a week for about 30 to 40 minutes. The remainder of the work is driving around the arena (from behind on the high rings). If this seams like too much, I can cut back.
I discourage anything faster than a trot, someday he will drive as his mom does. In another month or so, I will be velcro'ing pvc pipes to the sursingle and teaching him to "pull" things like bags of cans, sandbags, and kids that dont finish their homework (just kidding!). Nothing heavy.
I have not yet climbed on and had someone lead him around. This requires some uh... "brass" of which I have not built up yet I have no formal training skills and only pretend to know what i'm doing. Thank god for sites like horseadvice!
Thanks again for the comments!
Doug |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 785
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 2:03 pm: | |
Hi, Doug,
I believe there are only two things one should refrain from with young horses: circles and riding them.
Circles and turns are too hard on a young horse's joints, I guess because of uneven stress. I don't think 2 or 3 laps of trot on each hand will damage him, but I'd keep it to that as a maximum for one more year. Well, I wouldn't lunge him at all, actually, but that may be being too cautious.
With riding him, the main issue is not the weight, it is his mental and emotional immaturity.
A 2yo finds riding, cues and such very confusing. Generally, it will take him 3 years to have it all figured out. A 3yo will need 2 years. A 4yo will only need one year to learn the same tasks.
At 5yo, you can't tell which horse has 1 year under saddle and which one has 3.
So, what do you prefer? 1, 2 or 3 years of hard work for the same result? |
CherylA
Member
Username: Canderso
Post Number: 257
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 6:58 am: | |
Doug,
If this is your first 'big' horse, be warned that folks tend to confuse size with maturity...and will have all kinds of dumb expectations just because the horse is over 16'2. (e.g., Green-broke horse, 4 years old, 16'3: Wow, he must be easily jumping 3'!)
Wait, Doug. And when you do start, take it REALLY slow. You will be happy with the results. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 784
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:05 pm: | |
Hi Doug,
My friend had this problem with her 16 hand hanovarian at 2 years old. Every time she'd say something like I can't wait to ride him, I'd pick up his upper lip and show her his itty bitty teeth! It put things in perspective for her |
Douglas Wozny
New Member
Username: Socaldug
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 1:37 am: | |
Cheryl,
Definately not my first big horse. I did take a step backwards once with a nutcase arab (sorry arab lovers), but drafts are my thing. This is my first baby horse. All my other horses came trained, grown up, and ready to go.
So far, i've had to learn about foals, imprinting, wiening, and gelding (OUCH! that procedure is just so wrong!). Halter training went very well, and ground driving seams to be progressing great. But without help, I would not have known where to start.
I still feel clueless, but seeing progress is sure rewarding. Kinda like "wow! i did that!".
Aileen,
Great point! I'm gonna go look at his teeth They might be small still, but they sure are good at removing pens, keys and cell-phones from ones clothing.
I will definately be holding off on the riding thing. We taught mom and baby to lay down on command (its 80% but progressing). So we can still work on that and other fun things for the next year.
Thanks again!
doug |
Lori
Member
Username: Maggienm
Post Number: 66
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 10:08 am: | |
Wow, to lay down, how did you do that? I would love to teach that to my guy. |
D.
Member
Username: Dyduroc
Post Number: 127
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 10:48 am: | |
Doug, you're right about the 'Budweiser' Clydesdales--they aren't started until they're four.
Totally understand your love for these big horses--I've had a Clydesdale for 2 years and can't imagine myself ever going back.
Both my vet and my trainer told me that 4 years for light work and 6 years for heavy work is the golden rule with drafts.
I'd love to know how you trained your horses to lie down!
dyd |
Douglas Wozny
New Member
Username: Socaldug
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 1:03 pm: | |
Lori,
The laying down thing started a couple years ago. I saw a picture on the internet of some guru horse trainer laying on his horse and thought "now that would be cool!".
Caviats before i start: I have no clue what i'm doing, nor do i know if i'm doing it right. Some things i do might be dangrous or fatal
Whenever the horses were laying down, I would walk up to them, give them a good scratch, and some treats, then walk away hopefully before they got up on their own (approach and retreat theory and get them to trust me when they were vulnerable). The baby was easy, when it was his nap time, there was NO getting him up. When he was MUCH smaller, I could pull his head over onto my lap and kick back. He would be totally flat and absolutely enjoying the attention. Mom (at 6 years old) was not too keen on the idea, but she slowly learned that i wasnt a predator.
Anytime the horses would start pawing as if to roll or lay down, I would say the word "down" and praise them ("good girl!" or "good boy!"). Once they were down and done rolling (im not getting anywhere near 2200 pounds of flying hooves!), I would walk up and scratch, praise, and give some carrots or bran/oat treats. When they would bring back the legs to get up, I would use the word "up".
Catching them was easy since every morning when they were turned out, they would roll as soon as they hit the arena. Baby would normally nap around noon and both would snooze around 9pm. Their nap schedule helped in the efforts.
Then i realized that i was stuck and didnt know what to do next. I found a web site that talked about the trick, and started working on the methods they used. It worked!
It bascially works like this... You want one front leg slightly forward, then lift the other front rearward (as if to pick the hoof), then rock the horse backwards. This is almost a "bow" thing. This is done with the verbal cue. With the horses head low to the ground, praise a bunch, say "up" and help them figure it out when needed. I had to start with a little bow, then more, then more, etc. I also would hold a treat against the ground where they would have to bow to get to it.
After a month or two of the bowing, I started rocking/pulling the horse back further and toward me during the bow. Being in this position, he pretty much decided to lay down on his own. Once down, LOTS of praise and treats, then asked "up" (up works every time now, must be the natural "get me outta here" opinion of the horse). CAUTION: watch your feet when they lay down! i have had one instance where the rear hip landed on my ankle, and once the hoof planted on my foot when big nomma pushed herself up. Both of which were extremely painfull; the horse learned some four-letter cues but i didnt blame them
This is about where i'm at now, with much improvement. The verbal cues will normally get them to bow, but they sometimes need a little shove to lay down. It seams that the first "down" gets them to bow, and continued cues get them all the way down.
It continues to get better with time and practice, and its not something i do every day. I'll try to find the website and post it for you. I'll also take/post a couple pics when we practice again.
I'm sure if i had more experience it would have gone smoother and easier, but we all gotta start somewhere i guess.
Doug |
Douglas Wozny
Member
Username: Socaldug
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 4:07 pm: | |
here's a site that talks about it. i cant find the original site, but this one has very similar concepts and methods.
http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/down1.shtml
sorry about the crappy cell-phone picture. i'll post nicer ones some other time.
|
Douglas Wozny
Member
Username: Socaldug
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 4:49 pm: | |
"get your fat head off my knee and smile pretty"
 |
Ann
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 520
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 9:49 am: | |
Doug, fun pictures... all tho hard to really see, your 'kid' looks to be 'young' looking , i am glad you are waiting to jump on him... better to sit on the ground with him for now..!~
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS.. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 651
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 11:54 am: | |
I dunno....looks like that "kid" has a wild personality; better be careful!
Cute pictures. They bring a smile. Thanks for posting. |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 623
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:05 pm: | |
Really happy pictures, Doug. In the first pic, I think I see ribs . . . Is he a little on the thin side? If so, I'd beef him up a bit.
Who said horses can't be lap pets? |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 799
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:24 pm: | |
"Some things I do might be dangerous or fatal", Doug ?
Like what? Getting a heatstroke from sunbathing too much with your horse?
You may doubt your feel and skills all you want, but this horse says you're right on track. |
Douglas Wozny
Member
Username: Socaldug
Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 1:39 pm: | |
holly... yep, he's a bit thin
every 6 months i have the vet out. every time i would ask "is he too thin?" and he would say "keep him ribby, he's perfect". he gave me a few voodoo-latin-based medical terms why he should be ribby, so i complied
about 5 weeks ago it was time for his west nile and checkup again. i asked again about weight. this time the response was "ok, he's 2. let's bring a little weight on since he's really sprouting now".
we increased the feed about 25% but it wasnt doing anything, so i have now added a 2 cups of rice bran purina fat protein stuff twice a day and i see improvement in topline, flanks, and hips.
of course the pictures also show him at his worst. he plays in water and insists on laying in the "worst" areas of the stalls. he is also losing his winter coat and looks like a moulting duck.
a lady that raises drafts here in town commented the other day that he is "at the oh-so-ugly stage of growth" and "he is going to really explode soon". we'll see what the summer brings.
it was very hard to keep him thin seeing his mother at 17.2 at 2100#, and dad at 18.2 and 2500# (dad is a competition puller back east).
thanks for the comments!!! |
Douglas Wozny
Member
Username: Socaldug
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 1:57 pm: | |
christos,
many thanks. its nervewracking being my first baby/upbringing. i dont want to mis-train or do anything that will someday cause problems.
not only do i want the best for my horses, i definately dont want to be out on trail someday and wind up invalidating my birth certificate because of bad training. i've been tossed a few times on prior horses and simply too old and lazy to be a cowboy |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 625
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 2:46 pm: | |
Good to hear, Doug . . . although . . . if he is going to be laying in your lap, I suppose lighter is better. ;) |
