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Danita Zaccheo
New Member
Username: dzaccheo
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 8:20 am: |   |
Hello, I am a new member and hope I have posted this in the right place. It is a strange problem and I do not know where it fits. First let me say What a great site!!!!
I have a horse with a strange problem. He will not lie down to rest, sleep, roll, etc.
He is a 10 year old stallion and an exceptionally fantastic horse who has had a rough life previously to my buying him. He was in the circus and used very hard. He has arthritis in every joint, and an enlarged hock. He is high school and trick trained, and we are sure that he is trained to lie down, though we do not ask it from him, and the old hock injury probably came from this.
On cortaflx and 200 mg of hyurlonic acid daily he moves pretty good and the enlargement in his hock goes way down. However he will not lay down to rest although it is obvious he needs to. When he sleeps standing he will often times rest his head on something, and often times it will drop own. Also we have observed his legs almost give out while sleeping standing and him almost fall. In the two years I have had him, he has never lay down, not even to roll.
I was wondering what long term effects this may have on him and if you think there is anyway to encourage him to lay down.
Thank you |
Karen Trojnar
Member
Username: karent
Post Number: 142
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 10:57 am: | |
Hi Danita,
Is your horse alone? Did you have a dominant horse that is no longer there? It's possible that he is sleep-deprived because he did not feel he could safely lie down and sleep soundly.
If he is alone, adding a "watch" companion, possibly a gelding (if they can get along) or even a goat, will possibly resolve this situation. |
Terrie Douglas
Member
Username: terrido
Post Number: 51
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 12:21 pm: | |
This sounds alot like it is solely his hocks causing him to not lie down. This is usually common (of course) in very old horses, once they have lots of problems rising or lots of pain getting down and up again, they will stop lying down.
Long term effects? Well that's hard to say of course, but just think of what your long term effects might be if you couldn't sleep well.
It sounds to me like you have him on a good nutritional regimen to help his joints, so keep that up. That and exercise, he has to MOVE to keep joints moving and lubricated, it will help. He may well be able to reverse the pain and stiffness, he is still very young.
You can also inject the joints. I never recommend it, but that's just me. If the horse cannot bounce back with supplements and exercise then to my mind it's pretty severe. Injection would help but have their own risks involved, and of course it's expensive.
Keep in mind that even though he doesn't lay down he may be fine for a long, long while yet, just maybe not rideable. Of course as always consult with your Vet. |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 564
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 2:56 pm: | |
Hi Danita,
Welcome! Of course it's impossible to say remotely, but it does seem possible that your horse is not lying down because it is difficult to get down/up.
If it were me, I would offer him very deep bedding as an enticement-- some of my old ones will only lie down when they have a very soft target. I also would ask my vet to make suggestions for pain management-- possibly some NSAIDs would make him more comfortable.
Good luck! Post a photo and let us know how your old guy gets along. |
Danita Zaccheo
New Member
Username: dzaccheo
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 3:40 pm: | |
I also do not want to inject, it is also not feasable as he has arthritis in his knee, fetlocks, etc. He was asked to do too much too often on hard ground. He has deep bedding and a very large box where he has contact with other horses. He also goes out in a paddock every morning for free time. He is ridden out regularly and used as our representative at horse fairs. He is a great guy!!!! Just wish he would rest as you can see he really needs it!!! Will post a few photos of him |
Danita Zaccheo
New Member
Username: dzaccheo
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 3:52 pm: | |
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Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 565
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 4:09 pm: | |
Wow! Maybe he doesn't want to get his beautiful self dirty! Very handsome guy.
I'd talk to my vet, and strongly consider NSAIDs if pain is determined to be the problem. |
Terrie Douglas
Member
Username: terrido
Post Number: 52
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 4:13 pm: | |
Awwww handsome boy, but then I am biased having a Friesian mare of my own.
It sounds like you are doing everything you can for him, and in his best interest. Well and loving him, giving him a good home where he can just be himself.
Hopefully in time he'll be able to lie down and it won't hurt. Course he has to learn that he can and get back up again. That may not happen for a very long while yet. But I'll bet once his joints really start to feel better he'll figure it out.
Course if you should decide you don't want him any more I'd be happy to take him off your hands.... *wink*
He's definitely a handsome boy. |
Aileen
Member
Username: sunny66
Post Number: 2097
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 4:13 pm: | |
WOW! is right  Try some surpass, it's a topical and has worked wonders for my boy. It's a prescription. |
Terrie Douglas
Member
Username: terrido
Post Number: 53
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 4:21 pm: | |
Hey Danita, please email me privately at:
terrie.douglas@sun.com
I'd love to chat Friesians!! I absolutely adore my mare, wouldn't trade her for anything in the world. And I never figured I would ever own a mare. LOL
Anyway there's lots of good people in the Friesian community, lots of knowledge, if you're interested.
I think they're the best, but again I am a bit biased. |
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 40
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 4:25 pm: | |
What a GORGEOUS HORSE! |
Danita Zaccheo
New Member
Username: dzaccheo
Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 4:34 pm: | |
Thank you very much for all the compliments!!! I am thinking that maybe time is the only thing that will do the trick, it just breaks my heart to see him almost falling down when he is sleeping because he is so tired, yet he will not lay down. It sure does make the mane maintainence easier though.
Have just recently gotten the best supplement routine straightened out for him, as I switched from corta-flx as it is very expensive here in Italy, so I tried other brands which did absolutely nothing. So I have switched back. I only started with the additional hyaluronic acid the beginning of this year. So maybe he will start to feel better slowly, slowly.
Would love to talk friesians!!! They are truely outstanding. My email is dazaccheo@aol.com.
Signing off for now as it is quite late here in Italy. (I am an American, have lived here for 6 years) |
Julie Masner
Member
Username: juliem
Post Number: 422
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 5:06 pm: | |
There are videos online of sleep deprived horses and your description of head dropping and almost falling are exactly what they do. Most would not lie down because they were alone. Putting another horse with them solved the problem. Pain of course is the other reasonable problem. |
Erika L
Member
Username: erika
Post Number: 1250
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 7:49 pm: | |
Beautiful horse. Have you tried bute? Maybe if you dose him well, then use the cues he was taught to get him lie down on command, perhaps he will find that he can do it without a lot of pain.
Just a thought.
Erika |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 1741
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 9:16 pm: | |
AW, he's so handsome! I have a Friesian mix, he's sweet but timid, and I adore him too.
I think I'd try some Bute too, just a few days and see if it makes any difference.
The other thing, he may just need time to learn that he can lay down. I don't think I'd do any thing to encourage him to lay down like it was part of a trick again, he may be so burnt out on that part of his life. Or maybe he was forced to stay down and it's a mental issure instead of a physical issue?
And joint products take time to work and it's like they build up to a certain point and level off in the horses system. Just my unprofessional take on it. |
Leilani
Member
Username: leilani
Post Number: 450
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 2, 2008 - 10:47 pm: | |
Danita,
The Feb 2007 #353 issue of Equus had an excellent article on sleep deprived horses.
He is certainly a handsome fella.
Leilani |
CherylA
Member
Username: canderso
Post Number: 410
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 3, 2008 - 7:24 am: | |
Hi Danita,
As Leilani says, what a lovely fellow!
a few thoughts -
It is pretty normal for horses to not lie down to sleep - don't they have a lock mechanism in their stifle that allows them to sleep while standing up? So he can get sleep. I just don't know how normal it is for a horse to never lie down. I also wondered when you mentioned legs buckling. Can't wait to hear what Dr. O has to say.
While I agree sore hocks will stop horses from lying down, I also wonder if it is possible something else is taking his attention and disturbing his sleep (mares near by, perhaps?)
Last, I had a horse with terrible hock problems - though it never stopped him from lying down or rolling. That being said, I used bute and a topical ointment with Capsaicin (Equi-block DT) and it did help enormously with the pain. |
Gwen Robison
Member
Username: gwen
Post Number: 716
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 3, 2008 - 7:43 am: | |
Hi Danita,
Your horse is awfully handsome (and correct me if I am wrong, but I think he knows it). ;-)
I just wanted to add that my quarter horse did not lie down for quite a while. He does now, but to watch him go down is unsettling. He has PSSM and arthritis in his hocks, and I think it ended up being a combination of the two that prevented him from going down for a while. When he does now, he shakes pretty prominently, then gets almost all the way down and plops. I guess it was the better diet and joint supplements that made him comfy enough to try it again. Good luck! |
Danita Zaccheo
New Member
Username: dzaccheo
Post Number: 5
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 3, 2008 - 8:44 am: | |
I am not sure it is the pain that keeps him from laying down or that he was made to do it and perhaps had a bad experience in the circus. He is absolutely comfortable and calm in his box, with no mares near him. He is not at all an agitated stallion and is very happy and traquil in his box. He has a window to look outside and has a ball he plays with. I put him thru a cycle of the NAF detox supplement and 6 or 7 months on serrapeptase enzymes which supposedly clears out dead tissue from within the body. He also get 1 cup of ground flaxseed daily.
As I said He has only recently stabilized on a joint supplement that works well for him, as I tried various brands. I rode him today and he is really beginning to move well with no resistance. I asked for collection to ask for the passage and he went right into it on his own. Normally it takes me a bit as I am only learning myself. It was quite a sensation.
This horse is really my treasure. He has taught me so much about horse care and about life. I get as much enjoyment from him whether I ride him or not, although I feel confident that with good management he will be rideable for many years to come. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20773
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 3, 2008 - 9:16 am: | |
This gets back to the "only sleeping deeply when laying down" proposition that was put forth by a fairly famous veterinarian in EQUUS last year. To be honest I am not sure I buy the whole argument as it is inconsistent with my own experience observing horses. My horses appear to sleep very deeply standing and lay down infrequently often to roll, graze while sternal, get out of the wind and catch the sun...
That said if pain is the reason your horse will not lay down and you feel this is important perhaps a occasional 1 or 2 gram dose of bute would be enough pain relief to allow him to lie down? You may want to try the Surpass recommendation above first and resort to the bute if it does not work. Another possible treatment would be the use of over the counter Devil's Claw (an herb) based pain relievers. There is evidence that it has analgesic properties but there is little formal study of the safety of such treatment.
DrO |
Danita Zaccheo
Member
Username: dzaccheo
Post Number: 6
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 3, 2008 - 9:27 am: | |
I had him on bute for a week and he did not lay down, which is why I question if it is pain related. Also, while running one time in the arena he slipped and fell while truning the corner, (kind of like when a baseball player slides in), and he popped right up. Did not seem like he had a hard time.
I just hope the are no long term effects of him not laying down and not resting his legs, etc. And like I said it is hard to see when his head is dropping lower and lower and then he starts to sway back and catches himself just in time. |
Jo Ann Widner
Member
Username: jowidner
Post Number: 119
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 3, 2008 - 12:02 pm: | |
Danita,
What a beautiful, beautiful horse!
My gelding does the same thing as you describe your horse doing. He has no problem getting up and down, and rolls with gusto in the mud and dirt. Yet every day I watch him do his "almost falling down while sleeping on his feet routine." This behavior started when he replaced my mare as the dominant horse. When she was dominant he used to stretch out on his side and take nice long naps in the field while they were out grazing together. But I have not seen him lie down to sleep since he gained the dominant role two years ago. Perhaps he does lie down to sleep and I just have not observed it, but I'd think that I'd see him stretched out sometime.
Like you, I would love to see him lie down and really get some zzzs, but he seems healthy and happy with his current ways. If anyone else has figured out a solution I'd love to hear from you too. Perhaps I could dose him with lavender oil, dress him in Whinny the Pooh jammies and night cap, and read him a chapter from The Black Stallion!  |
