Use the navigation bar above to access articles and more discussions on this topic.
| Author |
Message |
    
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 51
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, Jun 8, 2008 - 12:48 pm: |   |
I've never had this situation before & I'm at a loss as to how to beat it. My colt will shake his head violently as I'm attempting to braid him. Needless to say this is frustrating & makes what should be a half hour job last all day. It got to the point where he was lunging up & forward to get away from it so I had to take a break & come back again later. Not to mention the danger factor. Has anyone had this issue before? Today my hands & well, pretty much the rest of me are extremely sore, I'm sure he's none too comfortable either. And the braid job, well, it wasn't pretty. I've got to get past this as I intend to show him and braiding comes with the territory. HELP???
As a side note, he's a very level headed horse (yearling) for pretty much everything else, he's extremely easy to handle & will 'jump to' whatever I ask of him. He's got an extremely thick mane & tail though and to spare him the grief I've shaved his mane from the underside rather than pulling to thin it out. It's very coarse & stands straight up even when about 4 inches in length. He's an Irish Sport Horse if that helps. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20805
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 9, 2008 - 7:02 am: | |
I have to admit the old horseman in me would reach for a lip chain and an experienced second handler during braiding and I would expect to have this behavior corrected forever in about 60 seconds.
The new horseman in me would consider positive reinforcement techniques as described in Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses. Ask yourself have you made this behavior worse by trying to offer treats as a distraction or even calming praise while he misbehaved?
DrO |
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 52
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 9, 2008 - 11:43 am: | |
Oooh, Dr. O ~ I'm blushing, you got me on that last part. I was trying to be kinder gentler after the whip only made it worse. I did give him a couple well timed whacks after the first few times, that's when he went absolutely ballistic & his eyes got really round. I'll check out the article & if that advice doesn't work on him will enlist the first option. There are times when old school comes in handy. |
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 53
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 9, 2008 - 11:56 am: | |
Where are my manners? I meant to say thank you! |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 768
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 10, 2008 - 3:07 am: | |
I am almost frightened to admit it but I used for things as braiding quite frequently the lip chain[though it is a soft rope and not a chain or the helper grabbed the nose to keep the horse occupied]
I prefer it to endless sessions which result in me loosing my patience and the horse convinced this is a not so good experience.
I have had an old mare who just protested to about everything from time to time you put the lip chain on [even just for a minute to make your point] and she behaved,on the other hand one vet tried to put it on BEFORE the old lady had protested and that gave an explosian of anger and annoyance on her part I will not forget
My point being, my horses never became headshy or resentful if the lipchain was used fair[every other patient solution first tried] and if the event was over fast next time I usually didn't need it again.
Jos |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20817
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 10, 2008 - 6:18 am: | |
Jos, some folks do have trouble talking about some of the older horseman ways but the fact of the matter is that used properly most of these techniques are very effective. But the use of chains, twitches, and other valuable techniques is becoming a lost art I am afraid.
You put the problem of their use correctly: "using it fairly". Which means in a manner the horse can understand and learn from. I emphasize the way it should be thought about in the article but it always worries me recommending the technique to those without much experience handling resistant horses. Even in a soft hand such techniques can send confusing messages as can positive rewards as Andrea expresses above.
DrO |
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 54
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 10, 2008 - 10:37 am: | |
I agree Dr. O, by the way, you calling me old??? lol ~ I've had horses for over 25 years & usually can, through talking with other horse owners if I'm stumped, come up with a valid solution. Each & every horse is different in their own right and I truly believe it's just trying different solutions until you find what's right for that horse. I do intend to give him a go w/the lip chain to give him an awakening of sorts and then go from there (in the appropriate way of course) - I usually leave that option to the very last as I don't like to use it but it can come in quite handy, after all, his hormones are just beginning to kick in & I think he's trying to show dominance. That ain't gonna fly. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20826
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 11, 2008 - 7:41 am: | |
Andrea, let me challenge one of your statements concerning the lip chain: "leaving its use to the very last". I would maintain that by starting early in the misbehavior with very mild corrections you avoid having to ever "sit on it". The earlier you start in the misbehavior, the milder the pressure needed, the quicker the horse learns what is suspected. I think a good principle is to first start with a new teaching technique in a non-threatening situation where the horse can easily learn what is to be expected when not behaving.
DrO |
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 55
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 11, 2008 - 9:30 am: | |
Oh I meant leaving it as a last resort trying other lesser measures first (I would escalate methods as needed) as I have in the past. It's been so long since I've needed to use a lip chain I'd pretty much put it out of my mind. On this next occasion I intend to put it on him when I take him out & have my helper keep a light pressure on it while wiggling it as I begin & giving him a quick, corrective tug if he misbehaves.
Thanks for updating me Dr. O! |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 572
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 11, 2008 - 9:50 am: | |
Hi Andrea,
Well, you know this, but be careful about having your handler apply pressure before the horse actually misbehaves. This brings that whole question of fairness into play, and will make the lip chain less useful as a correction.
Before you even start braiding, it might help to make sure that he understands you're the boss, and that braiding isn't playtime. Then when he does act up, he will understand a well-timed, right-sized correction. If you correct him before he misbehaves, or have an uncertain dominance relationship, it may send things the wrong way for braiding.
He's a stud colt, yes? I've noticed that my own stallions seem to have a very finely tuned sense of fairness, more so than the geldings. |
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 58
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 11, 2008 - 10:13 am: | |
He is a stud and is very sensitive Elizabeth. I was always taught that the light pressure with wiggling releases endorphins (sp?) & makes them calmer which is what I have observed. Dr. O, is it better to do that or just wait & jerk on him when he does something stupid? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: dro
Post Number: 20841
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 7:11 am: | |
Playing and distraction are fine anytime, correction should be correlated to misbehavior. I don't use the lip chain as an "endorphin producing device", for that I use a lip twitch.
DrO |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2239
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 7:18 am: | |
There were some horses at the barn I worked at, for some reason didn't tolerate braiding well. They were well behaved horses otherwise. Since they weren't braided often, most of the owners of these animals tranqued them for the braiding rather than fight it.
I guess that's the easy way out |
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 59
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 11:06 am: | |
Thanks Dr O - that clears things up for me. Diane I see the easy way out of that but prefer to have a well behaved horse over a drugged one. I could never keep a twitch on, just retarded I guess. My friend suggested getting an english curb chain & hooking it from one side of the halter to the other running it through his mouth to keep him distracted, giving him something to play with. She also said somebody told her to spray the sensitive area with, get this, Chloroseptic. Apparently it has a numbing quality.
Well, I guess I'll have my helper stand at the ready with the chain over his lip then and have him apply pressure as my colt misbehaves. I'll let y'all know what happens. I'd really like to get past this! |
Cynthia G
Member
Username: cgby1
Post Number: 251
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 13, 2008 - 3:43 pm: | |
Andrea,
Just a thought, how does this colt behave while standing tied? Does he stand quietly or does he fuss and fidget?
Cynthia |
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 60
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 13, 2008 - 4:10 pm: | |
He's sweet as can be & stands like he was born to. Don't get me wrong, he's a horse, if something freaks him out he'll get jumpy but for the most part he is very mellow. |
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 73
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2008 - 10:59 am: | |
Well, I promised an update. My helper (aka dearest boyfriend) hurt his back last week so we waited until yesterday to tackle this again & you're not going to believe it. I was dumbfounded. Not only did we not need the chain, my yearling fell asleep. Seriously, he fell asleep. Apparently having Tony there to tug on his halter the first time he shook took care of it. I'd had him tied before as I was by myself. I don't get it, but it worked. (sigh) horses. |
jos
Member
Username: paardex
Post Number: 807
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2008 - 11:51 am: | |
I can see why he is your dearest boyfriend
If only you let us use him from time to time...
Jos |
Andrea Duncan
Member
Username: babychop
Post Number: 74
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2008 - 3:58 pm: | |
LOL! He is wonderful Jos but I keep him pretty busy - he'd throttle me if he knew I told you he paints my toenails too... |
