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Discussion on Just what does back to basics mean for an already trained horse???
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Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2896
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 10:10 am: |   |
As you all know I took a pretty good fall off of hank...it wasn't his fault, but every fall off of a horse induces a little less confidence, in myself and Hank.
He is one of the horned ones. I still am not able to ride yet, but I thought I would do some "back to basic " stuff with him. To help rebuild my confidence and saw off a little bit of his horns.
On the ground he is a perfect gentleman leading. He stops when I stop, he walks when I walk, he backs when I back...no problems there .
I took him down to the arena yesterday and played some of the Parelli games (moving from pressure), though we are rusty he did pretty well., though I didn't feel I quite had his full attention.... he was licking and chewing and relatively calm and compliant.
Then I decided to lunge him, which in Parelli lingo is the circle game. I haven't lunged him in a few years and he was showing the horns. He would take off like a wild banshee, then finally come down to a relatively calm trot...to the right. His preference is to the right so we worked that way until I had him MOSTLY under control, couldn't get him to walk to save my soul! Other than that he was good, stopped on command immediately.
To the left was another story, what a nut job! First it took me quite awhile to get him going that way, but once we got going to the left ONCE again he took off like a banshee, bucking and running and having a good old time (not me. So figured he was blowing off some pent up energy, and let him have at it for a couple seconds. Brought him down to a trot, but once again I can not get that boy to walk!
Don't use a whip or even carry one.
He knows how to lunge
He knows voice commands (reenforced before lunging) Did great.
HOW do you make a horned horse walk on the lunge line???? Any other suggestions on some "back to basic work" while I can't ride??
Thanks |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 2003
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 10:42 am: | |
Diane,
I love these Hank stories, I think Hank & Tango should have their own personal section on HA!
I don't have those problems with Tango believe it or not, (he's still freaking out about things above him) but my mare Gem does something similar. She ALWAYS, never fails, bucks and rears on the lunge line. I am talking screaming, squealing, standing on her hind legs pawing the air. I DO NOT want her to ever EVER do that with me on her!
What I am trying is to keep her as calm as possible and slowly build up to going faster in hopes that she figures out she don't need to do the rodeo bit. (Only does this with saddle on btw) Like Hank, she knows what to do. She is super responsive to my body language. Keeps an ear and/or eye on me, attention isn't a problem. I do lots of direction changes, and the driving between me and the fence. I want her to walk calmly between me and the fence, turn and go back quietly. Then trot and do it quietly. She goes past too far one direction almost every time, but doesn't circle around, so we are working on that.
So in short, every time he trots, change direction. Keep the circle small. Do the work between you and the fence. Keep it calm as can be in the beginning. WHOA means STOP NOW. If he's racing around you 50 mph, it's hard to look at his rear and get him to face you, so you can't let it get that far. I don't believe in letting them blow off steam; that's for in the pasture on their time. When we are working, I want obedience.
Keep yourself calm too. I had this problem with Willow when she was younger, (Arab) and I used to get so mad because her head would go up and off she'd go. I had to learn to be super quiet and calm. So does he need quiet? Or does he need more firmness? Maybe a one time crack on the butt with a whip would get him to think "Hey, she means business" I don't know...every horse is different and it depends on his personality.
Curious to see what others suggest, let us know what works as I need the same advice with my little rodeo mare. |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2899
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 11:15 am: | |
I hate to admit it, but that is one of the reasons I stopped lunging Hank, I didn't like seeing what he is capable of! If he did that under saddle it would be a train wreck.
I was calm, I didn't get mad at all. It was actually kind of funny. I did get a couple walk steps and immediately stopped him after and told him how wonderful he was. (what a lie).
A crack with the whip would launch him too the moon. He will disengage and stop at any speed....even when loosing it, but he looks at me with his eyes rolling in his head ...like that was fun let's do it again UGHHH. I'm real tempted to keep him at speed until a walk looks real good to him...Would that be wrong? |
leslie christian
Member
Username: leslie1
Post Number: 385
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 1:05 pm: | |
D
Are you using a round pen or longe line? I like to use a longe line in my pastures. And in the beginning, what works for the pumpkin eater was to keep my circles smaller. I had more control. She also mastered the walk and whoa before moving onto trot. I used lots and lots of transitions.
If she would start to act stupid I would make the circles smaller. If that didnt work I would do a little groundschool bootcamp right then and there.
One of the best things to do with pumpkin, to get her to listen( she thinks she rules the world..alpha doesn't even begin to describe her) is to disengage her front end. Make her step that front leg behind the other. It works wonders on her brain. And next thing you know--she is wanting to listen to me and looks to me to tell her what to do. I get 2 eyes and licking and chewing then I would go back to longeing and she would pay attention to my cues. Now she longes perfectly without any fuss or arguing.
Just my way tho
L |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2902
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 1:38 pm: | |
The circles were small I used a 12 ft. lead. I couldn't master the walk because he wouldn't . Whoa is working fine, EEEAASSSYYY walk slowed him down, whoa stops him, now I need the in between!!! I probably just need more time, that boy is a nut case tho! Gotta love the horned ones. |
leslie christian
Member
Username: leslie1
Post Number: 387
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 2:04 pm: | |
LOL
I just imagined you going to walmart, getting a halloween devil costume and wearing it when longing him.  |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2903
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 2:41 pm: | |
I think maybe he's the one that should wear it , or maybe get him an angel costume... You are what you wear kinda thing!
I'm going down to try this again, gawd you'd think I never lunged a horse before, WHY does that horse have to be like that. Hopefully I'll have a good report. I finally figured out how to work the video on my camera, maybe I'll video the A$$ if I can lunge, video, with broken ribs |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 657
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 2:57 pm: | |
Hi Diane,
Well, there are 2 schools of thought on lungeing. One says it's a great way to get the silliness finished before riding; the other says that bucking on the lunge is a big no-no. Whichever school you choose, never forget Bill Steinkraus's wise words: never fight the oats.
So make sure that there is a clear time and method for Hank to get his ha-has out, and a clear transition to work when that ha-ha time is over. Make sure that he has room to balance, and that your lungeing equipment, whatever you choose, does not overly restrain him but also allows you to deliver a correction.
To the left (left side in), most horses will drop that left shoulder, fall on the forehand, and scoot. It's a loss of balance, as much as anything else. Make sure his circle is big enough, and school tons of transitions trot/walk to ensure that he is paying attention, and to encourage him to get his balance. Make sure you are clear and consistent in your cues so that he knows what you are asking. If he blows you off, get in his face about it.
My horses learn to cue off my leading shoulder on the lunge (so left traveling that is my left shoulder). If I tip it towards them, that is a half halt; bigger is a down transition; all the way around is a halt. I don't rely on verbal cues because I want the horse watching me, not looking at sparkly things and expecting me to holler for attention.
But that's my own approach. Most important is that he blow off steam somehow and then go to work, balance, and pay attention to you.
I'm not a student of Parelli, so I have no idea how all this fits into that. Hope it helps, anyhow. |
Terrie Douglas
Member
Username: terrido
Post Number: 101
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 3:16 pm: | |
Elizabeth has it here. Work time is work time, play time is play time. Diane from your description, sounds to me like he is having physical issues going left, possibly stiffness. Plus if he doesn't have great balance and strength of muscle he will need to 'explode' a bit here and there on the line. If it's in the beginning, beginning of either direction that is, then that's his need to get the energy moving period.
Keep in mind horses are two sided, just cause they go well one way doesn't mean they'll be able to go well instantly the other way. ;]
I would duff the 12 foot parelli line for "circling" initially. I know he has his levels, and 12 foot is close in-controlling better - work. Get yourself a nice/good 30ft really honest to goodness longe line and use that. If Hank is having physical issues he needs a much larger circle than the 12 foot line will allow. Let him go out to the end of the longe line if he needs to to find his balance. If he explodes a bit too much, let him go, let him take the lone, then go get him back and start again. Whatever it takes.
Give him times to be able to find his way of going before asking much of him. If you haven't "longed him in a few years" then it's almost like relearning the skill again, possibly, for him. Give him a bit of a break here.
Also move/walk with him, don't begin just standing still in a center of a circle having him work around you. Move alongside in the right position to influence, and let him move so he can find his balance. Once he's got it then he'll be more agreeable to do as you ask, I think.
To too am not a PNH student, though have used his methods in the past. There is a vast difference in the circling game and real honest to goodness longe work. |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2904
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 3:46 pm: | |
Ok we did a little session, boy after looking at the videos I realized how fat he is again . He did just get his shoes pulled and it does appear he is a little short strided in front...tho his feet don't seem ouchy so to speak. He was really good (compared to yesterday anyway) I made it short but sweet.
It does appear as though he is falling in, but then again at this point I just want him to listen.
Videos to follow they are taking forever to download. YES he is VERY fat!!!! Haven't been able to ride for about 3 weeks now |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 2005
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 3:54 pm: | |
Diane,
I just wanted to point out I disagree with Terrie (something I NEVER do, lol!) on getting a real lunge line. I would suggest going to your local hardware or where ever, and getting 30-35 feet of rope that has good "feel & weight" and putting your own hook on that. I'd rather use a rope with some weight, a hook of my preference, than a webbed line which is what I find most lunging lines are. They flap around, get knotted up, etc.
I think I got 3/4" nylon rope with a brass hook last time I made one. My driving lines are different, not sure what the rope is made out of, and I have bull hooks on them, don't like the bull hooks though as I think they are too heavy. But I like the rope better, it's got more feel.
Yup, I do think little things make a difference! |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2905
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 4:10 pm: | |
Having owned horses for 40 yrs. I have every type of lunge line you can imagine, the one I used today was a 14 ft rope one, he does do better close in to start. We were not doing the circle game, just a little lunge to get his mind going, did do some yo-yo game, that seems to get him thinking and calm. While I am waiting for the videos to upload to photo bucket is there any other things I can do with him from the ground to "sharpen" him a little.
We will move to bigger circles when he is a little more under control. |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2907
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 6:04 pm: | |
ok here is a couple videos...the big one is still uploading
http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/?action=view¤t=hankvide o002.flv
http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/?action=view¤t=hankvide o004.flv |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: mrose
Post Number: 4068
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 6:50 pm: | |
Diane, you use a NYLON rope as a lunge line?!! I have seen horrendous burns from nylon ropes used a lunge lines. If a horse decides to suddenly reverse directions or does some other weird move and somehow gets a leg caught in the rope a bad burn can happen fast. That's not even thinking about what can happen to your hands if your horse suddenly pulls away! I also like to use rope, but ALWAYS use soft, heavy cotton. I have used soft cotton ropes of different sizes and weights as training reins, draw reins, driving lines and lunge lines with never a problem. |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: amara
Post Number: 472
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 7:33 pm: | |
based on the videos, I would say this is as much a respect/mental issue as it is a "rustiness" or "getting the haha's out" issue...
You can tell by how he backs that he really didnt want to listen to you, and he really protected his left eye/side from you...i was amazed at how much you had to do to get him to back, and how dull his back was with as much as you were doing...if i ever used that much energy with one of my guys we'd be trotting backwards, at least!! he also backed with his head turned to the left, which means he is protecting his left side from you...he doesnt like seeing you there...
i noticed he didnt like to stand square, in either video, and a horse that doesnt stop and stand square leaning in and bracing against you... again, a respect issue...
personally i prefer to work in a round pen as it allows my horse to show me how he really feels, and that i can work with it.. the addition of a rope will always partially limit a horse...
i would say work him to get his attention.. once you have that you'll have the walk..dont pussy foot...whenever i "lunge" a horse on the ground, i make sure i move with the horse, adjusting my body energy to match what i want the horse to do...if the horse is tuned into me he'll do whatever i'm doing.. its a feel issue... if he wants to tune me out and do his own thing, then i make him do my thing, faster, until i feel he is ready to listen to me again.. then i drop my body energy and let the horse come down to me...as soon as i get a few steps of walk i draw the horse in and allow several minutes of soak time, not only to reinforce that with me as by far the best place to be, but also that when he gets with me and matches my energy then chill time comes quickly...
watch how he draws in, and do it from each side.. ideally he should stop and face you square, with his spine straight.. if its cocked to one side or the other, then he's bracing you, which means he's still not accepting of you on that side..
if he continues to back with a crooked spine, i do a sending on one eye and drawing in on the other eye to get the horse to want to see me on that "braced side"...i also always back on a circle so that the spine stays soft, which helps keep the mind open...
this is just my half penny's worth...i dont do Parelli, so this may completely contradict everything Parelli says, its just stuff i've learned over the years..
Mel |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2908
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 7:50 pm: | |
Hi Melissa, yes he does the back much better, In a different situation the energy level would have been higher from me, but I was trying to keep things low key AND trying to video. When the camera got put down and I had full concentration the back up was straight and much more energetic.
Today was a you CAN walk on the lunge line lesson and we will build from there. With him it is better to start with low key and work up to "more energy" If we start high energy it stays there for quite awhile.
Wait to you see the other video, you'll really have fun with that He does disengage immediately usually, but I think I wasn't right on with the camera and trying to video + broken ribs.
Next week I'll show you our progress. I really hate lunging to tell you the truth, but it is a good exercise for us while I can't ride.
Maybe he didn't want to look at my left side out of guilt...he's the one that broke it...guilt maybe? |
leslie christian
Member
Username: leslie1
Post Number: 389
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, Sep 28, 2008 - 8:18 pm: | |
When I keep in mind that he has had no work and been off his feet for soo very long, I thought he did Ok. I imagine while his feet were hurting you let him get away with a few things...which is something all of us horse moms would do. And it looks like he still wants to live in that world (minus the founder pain of course)
He obviously was busy looking at the *moonbeams* when trotting. But I think if you keep after it and him, he will pick it back up quickly
One thing I would do for safety is keep his nose tilted toward you with small bumps of the hand till he bends it inside.
Teehee, He is full of himself! LOL
Stay safe though
L |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: dtranch
Post Number: 640
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 9:50 am: | |
Diane .... A few observations from what I can see on the video's.
1. I like to work my horses without the fly mask so I can see and read eyes and ears.
2. I don't like the heavy clip on the halter as it can be a distraction as it is bouncing around, and maybe even bump and bruise in a real "bout" of resistance.
3. He appears to be stiff, probably due to weight and lack of work. I would work on lots of flexes, both vertical and lateral. It will help him become softer and more calm and attentive to you.
4. When his attention is drifting away from you (watch the ear) I like to give a slight tug back in to me to regain focus. I match the tug to his resistance. Slight resistance = slight tug, major resistance = major tug.
Work on direction changes. Get him to stop and turn and face you ... back up a step and go around you in the opposite direction.
5. Lastly .. I know I just saw a short video, but I didn't see any "reward" or "praise" when he did back, or do what you were asking. I believe horses learn much faster with praise and reward than without. The reward is the release of pressure and a complimentary pet or rub and a "good boy" .. then back to work. Remember, when you are trying to establish these results, reward the slightest try and smallest change.
Again, just my observations from a short video. I am sure I missed a lot.
DT |
Jerre R
Member
Username: jerre
Post Number: 279
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 2:40 pm: | |
Diane, a good way to help a horse get focused is to do the circle game with your back against a fence -- in other words, a half-circle game. The horse will come to the fence, turn and face you and you send him the other way. So, as in Dennis' suggestion 4, you can use the fence to help make the turns his idea/necessity.
When he starts looking to you and asking questions, you can try a full circle.
Jerre |
Julie Masner
Member
Username: juliem
Post Number: 481
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 5:16 pm: | |
How do I view the videos? The link takes me to a homepage, but nothing about Hank! Thanks, Julie |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 2007
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 6:02 pm: | |
Julie,
I couldn't find the video either clicking on the link in my email. But if you open the HA thread itself, and click on the link there, that worked for me. |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2909
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 6:11 pm: | |
So the consensus is Chubbers don't listen to me. Very good observation all, because under saddle he can be like that sometimes also.
Can any of you tell me what the purpose of lungeing is??? I know some people use it for the horse to blow off steam, which has always been my purpose. I have never really lunged a horse much...never interested me, now it does!
But I am starting to think there may be many purposes. Hank and I will work on it this week and revideo next weekend...I love getting your feedback, such smart people HAers are. Good thing I couldn't figure out how to attach the other video LOL, that was really somethin
Jerre at the moment I don't have a fence around my arena or any where else actually that would work, they are all electric.
Julie the links work fine for me?
Thanks all for your opinions, it does help. |
Terrie Douglas
Member
Username: terrido
Post Number: 102
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 6:43 pm: | |
Diane,
One of the main reasons I longe is to help my horse move correctly. ;]
Yes I can use it to allow the horse to blow off steam in a controlled manner.
I use longe to also make certain my horse is listening to me well way before I ever get on.
But mostly I use longe to help her learn something new, to help her move the way should move in a well balanced, relaxed and really moving well forward manner. It's a great way to help a horse develop the right muscles and balance without having to carry my weight. Besides then she does have my inept 'aids' to confuse her when I am on her.
I can teach her new stuff on ground first then transfer to the saddle. For instance we began with move and be relaxed. Then we added in half halts to help her shift weight and rebalance. Then I used longe to help her build strength of muscle, and more recently to canter well balanced and make easy smooth transitions from walk to canter and back to walk again.
But truly for me it's a great way to help her develop correct muscles to carry herself without me hindering her movement (as much).
The old masters said you should longe at least once a week without any riding at all. Just a short, intense longe session to keep the horse in tune, as it were.
I think if I had a very young horse I would use longe to help the horse learn to move and listen, then graduate to long lines, and lastly to under saddle work. I didn't need to do that with my little mare. Just had to teach her to stretch out and relax, and then finally to build muscles and strength. She had no topline at all, moved like a dream but had no muscle. She didn't know she could move with her back engaged, she didn't know she could actually lower her nose and still move forward. LOL Course here we are a bit more than 2 and a half years later and she still hasn't learned that she can poop and move forward at the same time. Gotta love her.
You can have a horse go round and round on a line and call that longing, but it probably really serves no purpose, except to have the horse move. Or you can make the horse truly work correctly and that is a real art. I am no expert, but I can help my mare go as if she is a top level dressage horse, "on the bit" (with no bit just a longe cavesson), getting all that foam out of her mouth, "lipstick" etc. Yup, just on the longe, and only when I help her to move correctly. So I know if I am doing it well or not pretty quickly. haha |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 2009
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 6:44 pm: | |
Diane,
I don't normally think just "lunging" I group it all into ground work. My round pen is off the back of the barn, so I might ask for a side pass as part of my lunging/ground work, horse facing the barn. I usually start out with a walk, then trot, change of directions, looking for the horse (I only do this with Gem & Tango for the most part)to be paying attention, and looking for gait problems. Tango tends to get gimpy at times, so before anything else, I check to see how he is moving.
A fireball horse, I would walk more, keep it calm, do direction changes, drive along the fence, etc. That works with Willow, Arab. I have to work not to hype her up, never, ever show her a whip! Cody on the other hand, I might get after him, and MAKE him work.
So think about what you want to accomplish first. I personally like word commands, others use a whip in different positions to get different results. Whatever you decide, be consistant of course.
I think from seeing the videos, I'd start with basics. (He is a little chubber, huh? Not in shape, huh?) Walk,easy,easy, whoa. WHOA NOW! And not "whoa and face me either, but you can do it that way." Walk....Whoa, and stand. Walk a nice circle. Then trot, WHOA. (I find it easier to go from trot to whoa, than trot to walk, at first but you body language will tell him what to do)
I also free lunge, making the horses do figure 8's. Sometimes I just lunge at a good working trot, waiting for the nose to go down, the horse to start working from behind more. (only problem I have with that, is I tend to get dizzy!)
I LOVE ground work; lunging and ground driving. I figure I am not on top of the horse getting in the way. I can see what the horse is doing, vs trying to feel is things are right. And IMHO, a horse that respects you on the ground, and knows word commands, is 100% better under saddle. You never know when WHOA might save your life.
Hopefully someone who has worked with more than the same 4 horses for the last 5 1/2 years, can lay out a program better for you.
To answer your question: I think the purpose is whatever you decide it to be. Take it as far as you feel you want to. Mindless circles to blow off steam? A horse trained to walk, trot, canter, stop, back, on word commands? Perfection at all gaits? (I tend to lump exercise for me in the equation too, lol!) |
Julie Masner
Member
Username: juliem
Post Number: 482
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 9:00 pm: | |
Thanks Angie, that worked. |
Jo Ann Widner
Member
Username: jowidner
Post Number: 229
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 9:53 pm: | |
Hi Diane, Thanks for starting this thread, there are a lot of good ideas here. I have no advice to offer, I just wanted to tell you that anyone who can lounge and videotape at the same time while recovering from broken ribs has my admiration! |
Jo Ann Widner
Member
Username: jowidner
Post Number: 231
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Sep 29, 2008 - 10:18 pm: | |
Sorry, I meant "longe." Lounging isn't so hard now is it? |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: dtranch
Post Number: 641
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 5:57 am: | |
Ditto a lot of Terri's comments. I use longe for many reasons. It is a large part of my foundation building on any horse. It gets my horse thinking and focusing on me. When I move his feet a particular way, we are building trust, respect and control. I call it my "sending" exercises, or "longing with purpose." In other words, I never just let the horse run around me.
We change directions, we transition up and down, and we turn and face, and wind down to a one rein stop. We work on turning on the forehand, then stepping back and turning on the haunches. I don't want the horse just running away to blow off steam while on the end of a rope. I want him thinking and performing tasks developing both physical and mental conditioning.
I use these exercises to teach trailer loading, desensitizing and confidence building, water crossing, and many other areas a horse needs help with. It is a valuable tool to have in your tool box when used properly.
DT |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2910
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 6:30 am: | |
Again I hate to admit this, but Hank WAS trained to do all of that. The guy that broke him could "send" him anywhere. Point and shoot pretty much.
He was desensitized to just about everything, that is why he is not a spook, or if he does spook it is normally in place.
Hank came back from training "too sensitive" for me. (10 yrs. ago)
He can and will turn on the haunches, side step down a fence line. He had "self carriage" moved from his hind end wonderfully....I ruined it. Stopped and turned with just a shift of weight in the saddle.
He STILL has that training in his head, it is very reachable.
There in lies part of my problem, such as a tug or even a slight pressure on the lunge line will turn him in. That is part of his training...and he has retained it all these years. So I have to be careful not to send conflicting signals. If he does what what he was trained to do.
Such as if I step in towards his haunches he will stop, I do this stuff without realizing it, and send conflicting signals, Which in turn makes him cranky I'm sure and he starts ignoring me UGHHH
The trainer would lunge him, stop him with minimum pressure and body language, switch directions in one smooth transition.
HMMMM as I type this I see it is ME who needs the training...Hank has it!!!! I do understand the release of pressure, and I know it didn't look like it on the video, MOST often my timing is good.
I think I know what to do now!!! I am on vacation next week and I am going to work on myself and see how Hank responds. He is a horse that needs firmness and direction.
Denny are you going to be coming through No. Il soon????? This would be a great layover place for you |
Diane E.
Member
Username: scooter
Post Number: 2912
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 8:33 am: | |
For your morning viewing pleasure, I had to use a converter, so they have to flash their add in there.
This one is a little longer and may give you a little better idea of all my problems
http://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/?action=view¤t=hankvide o003_New.flv |
Angie J.
Member
Username: ajudson1
Post Number: 2011
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 9:20 am: | |
1. Pick up the poop, no distractions...hahahaha!
2. Take off the fly mask so you can see his eyes.
3. I would say walk, then use "easy" more. If he's walking, don't say anything. If he trots, try NO, followed by easy...walk. Walk once, I wouldn't keep saying walk, except one time when he is walking...make sense? I like to think of it this way, we must sound like squirrels with our constant "chatter" horses I think respond to body language more then voices, though voice commands are part of training. I tend to be very non-verbal when working with a horse (very unlike me when around people as you can tell from my wordy typing!)
Did you notice at the end you threw out walk whoa trot all in a matter of about 3 seconds?
I really should have hubby film me, I bet I'd be shocked at what I am really doing, vs what I think I am doing! You are a brave woman to film yourself!
See if you can bribe hubby to film you so you can concentrate on just what you are doing. (maybe put that deer head up...tee hee?) |
Terrie Douglas
Member
Username: terrido
Post Number: 104
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 9:33 am: | |
Diane, *applause* Good job, you have taken the first fabulous step to helping Hank! Yup need to work on you, you need to learn to 'talk' to him, and not just when he is on longe. *wink* it carries over into everything, as you know.
So set up that camera of yours on a tripod so you can get an idea of what exactly you are doing and he is doing (if possible), or ask someone to film you.
Start working with him just walking to begin with (when you can get him to simply just walk). Pay attention to what you do and what he does. Take tiny, tiny baby steps. Don't repeat toooo much though. But just have a basic plan to do one thing. Once you accomplish that one small thing STOP for the day.
Like I will move my body and watch Bella to see how she reacts. I pay super close attention because the changes can be so subtle they can often be missed. It helps to have all this in your 'library of language'. If it works on Hank, it will work on most any horse most likely.
No need to get frustrated, in fact if you are getting frustrated, find something simply he will instantly respond to (whoa even) and stop there. ;] But you know this. We tend to ignore that on occasion and then later as ourselves 'why'? haha So, keep the longe sessions short if you have to, just work on one tiny thing, even if it's how you stand with him, or walk along with him, how you hold your body position, etc. what he does if you do.... then keep a journal and write it all down.
Ok, so that last sounds like 'work' and a waste, cause you'll remember it all... hahaha yeah fat chance there. Writing it down helps you totally 'relive' or re-experience it. Use as much detail in trying to explain what and how as you can think of. Then after a few days go back and read it. Can you still fully understand exactly in minute detail what and how do did.... ??
People ask me how I am able to articulate some of the more subtle nuances of working with a horse, it is because I keep a journal of what I learn as I learn it, as I learn to refine it. Heck, I am old, it's the only way I can remember half this stuff. LOL But it can make a huge difference in progress as well. It's kinda like an athlete playing their game in their head before they hit that playing field. |
Elizabeth Kaufman
Member
Username: ekaufman
Post Number: 659
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 10:06 am: | |
Hi Diane,
There are some good books and videos on longing, but your best bet, if you are serious about improving, is to take Hank and yourself together to someone who can teach you, and watch you, and help you learn.
philosophical transition....
These boards are a great resource, but if people could significantly improve their horse skills by reading a few paragraphs, well, we'd all be Grand Prix riders by now (or whatever we dream of being). The pros among us-- Denny and others-- have a ton of sweat equity and practice and self discipline and apprenticeship into their skills.
I have to remind myself of this all the time-- horse training and riding and doctoring are hard. Each skill must be acquired on its own, and there aren't many shortcuts. A horse who knows the right answer if/when asked the right question is the only shortcut there is, I think, and you have him.
So ease up on yourself. I'm a reasonably effective "longeur"-- no genius-- and I started paying attention to it about 8 years ago. I'm slow, but it's also not a quick thing to master. |
Ann
Member
Username: dres
Post Number: 2005
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 10:22 am: | |
Diane in all fairness you need to set your video on a tripod or have someone video for you.. As you concentration is being pulled from your horse to the camera to horse..
Hank looks good..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: amara
Post Number: 473
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 30, 2008 - 10:30 pm: | |
I definately think we need an outside source videoing this...I really want to see YOUR body language.. one of the things you see most often when someone uses a lunge line is that they have their vector right on the horse - usually pointing to the hindquarters - which only serves to push the horse forward/faster... then you have the lunge line which tries to slow the horse down...you can have this whole push/pull deal going and not even realize it...course, without seeing the whole picture maybe not..
even tho you were using the video camera he was really tuning you out.. that whole "poop" issue was a definite test... which was more important, you or the poop?...poop won!!!and then won again the 2nd time around...eventually he just got bored of the game...
when you start lunging him is that the way you always start, or was it a video camera issue.. i noticed you moved awaya from him, rather then him moving away from you...setting him up so that he takes the correct position (preferably by yielding space and crossing legs/bending spine properly), sets him up to think of you as the leader...you put him where you want, not letting him wander out to where he wants..
personally, i dont get the whole voice thing.. natural horsemanship means to do what is natural to the horse, and i just dont see that in nature the horse using much of the english language.. that's a whole human taught thing, which means its a learned skill that is quickly forgotten...its all about body language to me...that's a natural, reflexive skill that the horse never forgets, cuz its hardwired into their system...
just the other day i caught myself creating a problem with my g | |
