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Discussion on Horse knows what to do .. but just says NO.. | |
Author | Message |
Member: dres |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 9:51 am: ok fellow trainers, I have a interesting problem with my 3 year old.. I have done 2 months of ground training, Parelli style.. this young horse knows all the basic ground / body language commands.. In training him trainer and I notice that he will wait till we have to get large to perform even tho he knows what we are asking ..Fast forward, now under saddle .. we give seat / leg / whip to ask him to go.. hoping that he will respond to the lighter aide .. HA! He waits always for the larger aide .. yesterday he started his buckin up at the leg / whip aide and got caught in my arena fence.. * no one got hurt* BUT after that he was light on the seat aides / forward and happy .. We have noticed in these months of training that it takes A HUGE something to get his attention then afterwards he is right there.. * In our ground training he went up so high in a rear and crumpled down on his side , lay there thinking and has NEVER done it again..We don't want to beat him to learn, but it seems that is what he wants..???? Any ideas.. ? On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 10:55 am: I am not sure how much of a trainer I am, but I wonder if he isn't one of those really smart ones who is saying "Well, I've got it already, but I am going to make you wait me out?" I have a mare like that, and I think she gets bored after she's "got it" and figures she's done. I sometimes wonder if those "games" and all that ground work isn't counterproductive to those kinds of horses?She will blow up also if I keep insisting. So I keep insisting, but don't go 1. ask, 2., spurs, 3. whip....rather, ask, ask stronger, than wait it out. Repeat. Repeat. She is not allowed to do anything else..like graze, head to the barn, etc. Lots of my training is spent just sitting on the horse, lol! Maybe try back tracking a bit, riding from the ground. Have the reins in your hands, and a short whip, stand beside him and ask one leg to step forward on that side. Tap the whip so it is on the leg and about where the girth is..in other words where you foot would tap from the saddle. Better yet, just have a halter and lead rope on first, then the bridle. Forgot I did that first. In other words, do as much as you can from the ground beside the horse. I do say walk, tap tap tap. Then whoa, back, repeat. If the wrong leg moves, just back up, start over. I've been thinking a lot about all this "Natural stuff" and am coming to the conclusion that for me anyhow, it can be overkill, and with certain horses it may not be the best thing to do. Or not do as much of. He don't need beating to learn, just a different technique. And HE IS YOUNG yet! Let me know if that works at all, I am curious to know. |
Member: dres |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 3:00 pm: Angie KJ .. we call what you explained side by side riding .. we do this first before getting on ... with a halter .. Tom knows how to leg yield from the ground.. shoulder in from the ground ... a beautiful bending line all from the ground training.. he understands the tap tap ....I liken him to a two year old kid that has learned he can say NO... and will to anything even if its a bottle or juice or candy .. the toddler just says NO... I agree that we can't drill him.. we figured that out early in the ground work.. Trainer and I talked about just starting out at THREE and work backwards with the aides... but what if that does not work then I might have to use a JACK HAMMER on the poor kid.. Like I said he understands BUT he just has to say NO.. or have the life scared out of him then he is soft and does not test again ..It will be interesting to see how he comes out tomorrow , tonight is his night off to 'think' .. I have never had such a hard to teach to learn horse .. or so stubborn.. I always start my 3 year olds then put them out to pasture for the winter to grow some more and to think.. Tom is still growing at over 16'1 hhs Keep the thoughts coming ? Denny? On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: canter |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 4:23 pm: Ann, I've never worked with a horse this young before so can't share my own experience. But, one of the younger horses at the barn, who was born and bred there, "came of age" a couple years ago. The youngest daughter of the BO took it upon herself to train the mare for barrel racing. The mare had been extensively handled from the ground, but this talented teenager had to get the mare ready for the saddle and eventually for her new career. We had long noticed that the mare had a bit of a stubborn streak in her (very sensible, but stubborn) and it really became apparent as the teenager started working with her more intensely. I watched this young girl working a lot with the mare and what I witnessed very much reminds me of what you describe in your youngster.I saw a horse who was quick to understand and learn, but who frequently decided she just didn't want to do whatever was asked. The teenager didn't do anything but insist, with increasing pressure (including a good thunk with a whip on occasion), over and over....and over again. Sometimes the young mare was as good as gold and there were other days when she decided that she'd rather still be out in the pasture. The teenager was patient and kind but very, very firm. The mare eventually became a very nice barrel horse and the teenagers efforts paid off and the stubborn behavior faded away. Seems like your horse and this young mare share that personality trait and it's probably something that you simply will have to work through until one day he just decides it's easier to do as asked than not. I was amazed at the teenagers determination - I think she was around 15 at the time. I'm equally amazed at what a nice horse she ended up with. |
Member: dres |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 6:03 pm: Ahh good Fran, you give me hope.. this boy can move.. he floats .. IF he is trainable he will make a great dressage / or eventer .. In the Hanoverian books we judge a horse on trainability, the stallions at the stallion testing's.. right now I would have to say that Tom would have a low score.. It just seems that he fights us every bit of the way .. Once going we hesitate to stop for a break/ rest .. becus we know that he will make us bump up the aide to THREE to get him to move out.. He has only been under saddle now for a handful of rides.. and is already getting the inside leg to outside rein.. abet with resistance at first then a BIG OK sigh and lovely horse.. We will stop rest and the whole darn fight begins again..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots. |
Member: sodmonst |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 10:24 pm: I am too much of a softie sometimes and had to learn to "get right to the point" when working with a horse that hadn't learned to pay enough attention to me.When I read your post, I wondered if he gets too many light cues before getting the BIG one. He might not take the cues seriously. In other words: the leg says, "go" "go now" "GO" "GO NOW" and finally, "BAM: GO NOW!!!" If that is the case, he might do better with, "go please" quickly followed by, "GO," immediately followe with, "KABLAM: GO NOW and I MEAN NOW BUSTER!!" That's probably closer to the sequence his mama used with him. |
Member: erika |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 10:35 pm: Oh Ann! I will be watching to see how this thread progresses. Your horse could be a double for Cleo, minus the rearing. But she's a sensible girl, just stubborn. I have had similar issues with the BIG cue being the only one to get a reaction, even when I know she understands (very quick to figure it out).Believe me, I can sympathize! Every time my sister comes up to visit for a few days I end up retraining for a week after. She likes to let the horse decide where and when she wants to go (while I bite my tongue and tell myself we'll "fix" it later)! No matter how often I offer another horse, she likes to ride Cleo, but she spoils her rotten. I have taken to doing extremely short training sessions with my mare. Sometimes as little as 15 minutes. Once I get the desired result, we quit and just do a trail ride, or just plain get off and put her away. We are making terrific progress with this method. But she is quick to backslide too. I see that your horse knows his lateral cues well. Try using a shoulder fore to get him paying attention whenever he is being lazy or stubborn. Works well with my mare. Have you tried riding while someone else lunges? Maybe a combo of cues will help transfer a reaction. I think I agree with Angie, that like kids, some horses are just going to test us. The light touch might just take a long time to get consistent results. I would give it a chance, then make it unmistakable. He'll eventually come around I bet. Good luck and keep us informed of how it goes, will you? Erika |
Member: erika |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 10:37 pm: I see that Suzie was posting while I was writing...I like what you have to say, Suzie. You used a lot less words to say what I meant! Ha ha!Erika |
Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 10:43 pm: UGGHH Ann a I don't want to horse and you have to make me! They always turn out to be the best once you figure them out FME.I have never trained for dressage/ or eventing, but I spent 100's of hours helping a trainer and watching him train the young horses and almost everyone of them started out as you are describing Tom. Tom is young, one thing I learned from that trainer was sometimes you do just stop, if the horse got the message he was suppose to get after 10 mins.....he was done. IF it took 2 hrs. to get the meaning of that lesson then it went that long. IOW if tom does what you want right away...good boy and put him away or walk around on a loose rein. Sometimes the "especially talented" ones get a bit overwhelmed since they are so talented when they want to be, we keep pushing for more. So when you get this "BIG OK sigh and lovely horse.. We will stop rest and the whole darn fight begins again" Don't start again That worked most of the time and he used that mostly on the young ones. If that didn't he would do as Susie describes! He didn't like to go there if he didn't have too tho. Reward small tries quickly. |
Member: sodmonst |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 22, 2009 - 11:32 pm: Thanks, Erika! You and Diane mentioned another important piece of the picture. When the horse gives us what we ask for, it's best to accept it and quit on a happy note. Drilling on the move once the horse has done it is usually counterproductive and can lead to regression, resentment, and "sour" the horse.So much better to shape a move for precision over numerous sessions so that the horse experiences success and positive reinforcement repeatedly. When horses experience enough positive reinforcement, they will often start "offering" behaviors, and seeking more reinforcement. If horses don't succeed in obtaining reinforcement, most will become dull and a few will become dangerous. |
Member: dres |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 9:46 am: WoW, Great minds think alike.. we do keep his work short and end on a good note.. in fact there have been nights that I felt trainer should continue but she ends with a good feel.. The problem has been getting to that feel.. such a bugger this one is .. .but like I said.. something major creates a HUGE change in him.. I almost think the boy enjoys pain ..<smirk> .. Currently is worked 4 days a week.. two day on , one day off , two days on two days off.. The rest of the time is spent in his pasture..I wish we had close access to trails.. trainer and I both feel this would benefit him hugely .. I am thinking after his winter off , sending him to my farriers to be ridden in cow pastures and worked by one of his sons.. A change in place / rider and style could do him good.. He is slowly doing the varnish roan appy thing.. with a few more years he could be white with black points ! On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: lilo |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 10:13 am: I have heard Clinton Anderson call it a "concept lesson". When you first introduce something new, reward the slightest try and stop. Go back to it the next day and reinforce the lesson, bit by bit working toward your end goal.I have a horse that regresses quickly, I have to admit. He is 13, and after a long layoff, say during the winter, I often feel I have a 3 year old again ..... Lilo |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 10:37 am: Ann,I knew you were light years ahead of me in training knowledge, you even have a name for what I was doing, lol! Lilo, I've only been blessed with one horse who could stand around all winter, and be the same next time I got on her. Sure do miss that one, gone before her time. Can't wait to see what works here Ann, I need to apply it to that one mare. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 10:38 am: BTW, he's very handsome! And I think he looks like a stinker even from afar. |
Member: dres |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 11:03 am: He does look like a StinKer..! He has the pointy head / tiny ears.. icky appy eyes developing.. In the photo Lisa is pointing to the saddle for him to put his nose on it.. you can point to almost anything / draw YOUR eye to it.. and he will go and touch his nose on it.. that is a fun game ..to see if you can mix him up.. interestingly enough you can point at something in the middle of a pile and 'think' real hard on that .. he is drawn to it.. whodovodooo???We have company coming in today ,I don' know if i will be able to go out to the arena and watch.. City folk don't take kindly to dust / heat / flies ya know.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painte them with spots.. |
Member: erika |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 11:23 am: He may be a stinker, but he sure is smart!Good luck with him. I think Diane is right, when you do convince a horse like this to be on your team, they do tend to be wonderful. Erika |
Member: lvmyhors |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 12:07 pm: I have a 3yr. old Paint filly who is exactley like your boy and I've found out that she is just way too smart for both of our good! She gets bored very easily and tries to out think me at every angle! In my younger years I would have thoroughly enjoyed her and the challenge, LOL, but as I near 50 I'm finding I much rather prefer the old steady eddies! I suggest trying to mix up his training sessions to prevent boredom and be more concise with your "asking", in other words give him 3 chances to follow directions and then MAKE IT SUPER UNCOMFORTABLE FOR HIM NOT TO DO WHAT YOUV'E ASKED OF HIM!! I suggest, ask and DEMAND! you mentioned that you use Parelli, (love them!), so maybe you should try to incorporate the 7 games into his training sessions when ever he seems to be losing interset or ignoring what you know he knows! Don't give up on him, he's just way too smart for his own good, LOL! |
Member: terrido |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 12:23 pm: Interesting situation. If he is super smart which I think is the case here, and sensitive, yup sensitive!! I'd back up a bit.Even on ground when you ask for something, use the 'move Your FEet NOW!' tactic. Touch, press, tap, smack kind of thing, using "5 beats" to the phrase. And yes he may well just wait until that 5th hard smack to move his feet, but you establish a 5 beat pattern. And yes absolutely when he tries - reward, and when he does it ONCE stop. Just quit right there period. Horses learn things the first time, we "ingrain it" by repeating it. You don't have to repeat it in one session! You can repeat it over a few days and get better results in some cases. Also, if you are working with him on the ground especially, even something simple like 'pick up a foot', if he moves his feet before he lifts that foot for you, stop right there, and move him back so his feet go right back where they were originally. Keep doing this too and don't take his moving away as an answer. haha The more precise you can be with where his feet are when you 'stop' the better. Might sound strange but some horses actually respond best to "precision", patterns and routine. He may well be one of those. This is what works best with my own little mare. She is super smart and super sensitive and seems to 'have a stubborn streak'. But she isn't stubborn at all, she just wants "perfection". Took me a while to figure it out. If I am much more precise and pay attention to details she responds by being much more cooperative. It's like she plays a game with me, let's see how perfect she is today.... LOL Anyway working in patterns helps her, so I began using specific stride counts, etc. when then asking for anything. Using the pattern made her relax. Then riding specific and precise patterns also made a difference. The other thing I do with her is I wait her out. If I am teaching something new I just do it once, but when I know she knows it and she is not responding, I just ask and I'll wait. This lets her think about it. This works nicely with some things and not so well with others, haha I also and this is pretty controversial, but I will also allow her to say "no" once in a while. She hates getting bored and I do mean she hates it. Doing something more than a few times and she is bored to tears. With some things I just tell her she is gonna get more bored until she does it correctly, like lining up and standing at the mounting block. That kind of thing. If she swings haunches away, I send her and ask her to come back; I'll keep doing it until she lines up and stands. But she knows I'll just keep at it until she does it, so she normally doesn't give me any fuss about it no matter where we are or what's going on around us. I use this same approach to most everything with her, I simply wait her out, only takes once or twice and that's normally the end of the 'battle'. I think Parelli calls it patient persistence. haha Anyway for this super smart, talented and super sensitive mare of mine, precision, details not giving up, and also allowing her to have a say once in a while has made a huge difference in her wanting to cooperate in those areas where she used to get 'stubborn'. |
Member: vickija |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 23, 2009 - 2:12 pm: Hi Ann:I am currently working with a young guy who sounds very similar. He started associating the ring with WORK! So when we first started a new lesson he just threw a fit! ( I am being taken away from my girls and I dont like it!) So I have started each lesson with no tack completely off the lead and getting his attention. It is amazing how once I get him to follow me and respond to easy voice commands with much praise he decides that it is okay to start a lesson. I dont know if it will work for your guy but it has really worked for me! |
Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 1:09 am: Hi Ann! Oho, this sounds familiar. How long are you giving him to respond to each request? I have noticed, with my "show me; now make me" horses that I need to be a LOT quicker with my aids. Horses process aids a lot faster than we give them credit for. Sounds to me like the stalling is getting him out of a lot of work (in his mind, by delaying work), and he doesn't mind the escalation. So don't let him rest when he knows it. Hit the FF button maybe. This has helped me a lot with mine-- makes that DUUUH response unrewarding. |
Member: sodmonst |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 1:49 am: Handsome horse, Ann,I agree with elk, if you are certain that he understands what you want, but is blowing you off, then to deliver the KABLAM cue in quick succession to the ignored one is key. It sounds like he's demonstrated the truth of this to you already. I struggle with disciplining myself to deliver an impressive KABLAM; it's some personal hang-up about "being mean." In truth, I tend to avoid confrontation and slip into "nagging" rather than clearing things up. Probably that's why I get along with my overly reactive horse. He doesn't like confrontations either. |
Member: erika |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 10:29 am: Sounds like we're all in agreement!A trainer that I worked with before came over not long ago to help me with impulsion for my mare. As I lunged, she would break out of the canter often to trot (had a thread on this impulsion issue), trainer said instead of saying canter and threatening with the whip, to pull in the line enough that I could actually reach her with the whip and next break to lower gear, give one chance verbal then give her a good crack with it. Certainly woke her up....for a while. Tee hee! It is true that once they know you mean it, they actually require less in the way of cuing. Less nagging. |
Member: maggienm |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 10:49 am: I would like to add a bit to the above good advice. It sounds like this pattern has been going on for a while.Maybe early in his training a 'try' wasn't recognized, so he 'learned' not to respond to soft stimuli. When I am training something new, if the correct muscle twitches or the horse leans in the right direction that is a try and rewarded. I have observed many people wait for what seems like half the correct movement before they recognize a 'try'. Just a thought. With some horses whose attention I have trouble holding(or who seem to need to wake up) instead of upping the cue I will stamp my foot, sneeze, throw a rock....multi-tasking here, regains attention and despooks. I think this was mentioned already, if my horse seems tuned out or sluggish again instead of upping the cue I put him to work. Either on the lunge or round pen, I usually use a 12' lead line so if that is all I have they work on that, a couple of serious rounds, turns, halts, and they are more willing to pay attention. And my cues can stay soft. I have even unhooked my reins and used my rein.(older steady freddy) |
Member: dres |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 12:16 pm: well a update from last night : .. He came out willing and happy, he always meets us at the gate , he loves his out time.. saddled up and ready to go... started out with a quick game of 'falling leaf' .. this is where you change direction pretty quick on just a head tilt at the canter you can actually teach flying change..Anyway forward and happy .. He can be aggressive at times in the games..pins ears etc..Now up on top .. he moved out nicely off the second aid.. seat/ leg.. no stick this time around.. Lisa quit right away.. she said she wanted a lesson with out any beating at all .. so a few laps around on the soft aide and he was put away .. Ok now for another pet peeve! Trainers LOVE to spend your money.. Lisa suggests I have a vet check on him to make sure there is nothing painful on him.. Ok I do understand the reason for this .. BUT wouldn't he be somewhat lame low grade or otherwise ? Yes he can be aggressive... but a little history on this beast... he was bottle fed the first almost 3 months .. I have a thread on this.. he was a distosha (sp) baby and by the time I got him out / some lack of oxygen fluid in the lungs and his swallow was partially paralyzed.. So I had to pan feed him with his head down becus nursing with head up milk would drain into his lungs.!~ So for 2.5 months I milked mom fixed formula and pan fed him.. he had to wear a muzzle when not feeding .. so yes there is face issues .. biting was one... we have that under control.. Anyway enough of my rant... I guess next fall shot day I will have the vet do flexion tests.. but honestly I don't think it is physical.. He is a sassy brat.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: terrido |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 1:00 pm: Well he sure was a cutie!It could be pain related and may now show as being lame or even slightly 'off'. Might only show when under saddle... could be saddle fit or bridle/bit... Could be any number of factors, rib out from "playing", back twisted.... you name it. Step one rule out all possible physical issues, step two begin to work on the mental ones. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 2:11 pm: I'd be more inclined to think this is a horsersonality issue going back to all the attention he got with the foal feeding he got from you. Having raised an orphan colt, plus helped deliver another who "smelled me before mom" it sure seems these horses are different around people. Friendly but challenging. Both of mine thought work was beneath them, but they loved to play with people.He's being a pain, not in pain. Of course it could be a pain issue. |
Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 2:42 pm: Hi Ann,If it were me with this situation, I would keep a sharp eye out for pain, but treat it as a training issue until my gut said otherwise. Any lameness sufficient to interfere with this level of training should become evident soon enough. In the meantime, the hesitation (is it pain?) will interfere with your timing sufficient to reinforce the behavior you are actually trying to correct. But it comes down to the question of whether you have more money or more patience. If you have more money, by all means run him through a full exam to rule out some sort of unseen unknown. If you have more patience, keep with the training and see what time shows you. Just my perspective, and I do realize the limits of it.... Very cute! And he obviously knows it. |
Member: erika |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 3:02 pm: I agree, Ann, you've got plenty of experience with horses and I bet you'd have a feeling whether this is a pain issue or not. Why not do the flexion tests yourself just as a rule out? If nothing comes up obvious, he's probably just as Angie is saying--tooo human for respect!Cleo is the only horse I've owned since birth--I imprinted her--and also the only one I've had respect issues with. I do think there is something to the theory of too much early interaction. Another trainer I know says the same thing. He would rather have an unhandled horse to start than one that was too close to his people. I agree with Angie in that it makes respect a little harder to maintain. Erika |
Member: amara |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 3:30 pm: What is he like in the non-working area? When you feed him does he wait respectfully for you to put the feed (hay/grain or otherwise) out, or does he get up close, ears pinned?... How does he lead? Close, far away? lazy? trying to get past you? does he stop when you stop or do you have to use the lead? Does he try to mug you for treats? Does he give you his head when you halter or bridle him? or does he keep it tilted away from you?i'm asking this because your problems certainly sound like a respect issue, and personally I find that most training under saddle issues arise from very basic ground issues. I do most definately agree that since you havent had much time riding the horse, this may all go away with some more time anyways. I also agree with not doing too much, less is more when you are getting a horse going... I personally find that overhandled youngsters can be more difficult to train. They are generally less respectful, more pushy, wanting to get in my space, and if I dont get this fixed on the ground, they tend towards a "harsh" ride at times.. Mel |
Member: dres |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 3:55 pm: What is he like in the non-working area? Tom loves 'his' humans but ' was ' very mouthy and took skin too,,, we have that under control nowWhen you feed him does he wait respectfully for you to put the feed (hay/grain or otherwise) out, or does he get up close, ears pinned?... He pins his ears BUT he is respectful and goes to his manger and waits for his food... I had to work with him to do this tho... other wise he was pushy and grabby .. How does he lead? Close, far away? lazy? trying to get past you? All of that when we first started working with him.. now he leads at the end of the 12 foot lead rope , when we stop he stops and waits for us to start moving .. again a lesson was learned becus in the beginning he was biting my hand / rope and shoving me over or getting in front of me... that is all fixed now.. does he stop when you stop or do you have to use the lead? I answered that... .he stops dead now when my feet stop.... it had to be learned tho.. Does he try to mug you for treats? He is not had fed treats .. knew that was asking for trouble since he was a biter.. Does he give you his head when you halter or bridle him? or does he keep it tilted away from you? hum? that is interesting now... he halters nicely ... but when putting the bridle on we are in the barn / cross ties with a ton of things around that he wants to put his face in... brush basket is always got his nose in it grabbing a brush or what ever he can grab... so I would have to say he moves away when I DrOp the halter ... but he no longer bites me when I halter or un halter him or connect him to the crosss ties.. So after answering the questions he has learned a ton this past 2.5 months hasn't he.. ??? I really don't think it is a soundness issue..... had his teeth checked before we started... the saddle is 'ok' not perfect but I check his back after every ride to see if he is tender... the saddle will be fitted to him next month .. All you guys are great and we do think alike.. I will keep a careful watch tho on soundness issues if I see anything... I can touch anything on him without hesitation ...i can push / pinch stifle hocks flanks back .. he does not pin or switch his tail while I do it.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: jolie |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 4:25 pm: Hi All...I don't usually provide guidance, as I really don't know what I am talking about....LOL, however I have had experience with orphaned foals and also my trainer has had a number. There is something different about babies who have not had a "real mom". I truly believe that the lack of initial training they get from the mare and/or the herd effects their dispostion's. My trainer has stated that he has not had one orphaned yearling/2year old that wasn't a bit off. I know that my filly who was raised with love and what I thought was proper "guidance" was at times extremely disrespectful during handling. Just a thought. |
Member: jolie |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 4:43 pm: OPPPPPSSSS...never mind...I didn't read all the posts....I thought he was an orphan!:>( |
Member: dres |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 7:05 pm: Jolie, not really an orphan but close enough.. His mom is a kind sweet let him walk all over her kind of mare.. She was of no help in the discipline area..OH two months ago or so, i let him out with my gentle gelding that baby sits all the babies.. I was mowing and noticed that the gelding was running after him.. Hum? isn't that cute to see them play .. I watched longer.. no gelding has his ears pinned / mouth open and is pist.. running hard now all over the pasture.. next thing i know Tom jumped the fence to get away from gelding!! Now this gelding has bad hoofs and really won't run much.. I am betting he told Tom to do something and Tom said NO several times.. finally gelding had enough and said.. EAT SH*T & DIE .. and was gonna kill him.. After all settled down and i gathered the gelding who was pacing on the other side of the fence wanting to get to Tom still.. and I get Tom and noticed several bite marks on his side and butt,,, I am sure that is what happened.. as gelding is the sweetest horse and lame! So this is Tom's nature.. great.. . he will push the envelope ., now to figure out how to not push him so much as to sour or discourage a good work ethic!~ On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: terrido |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 8:02 pm: Hmmm might be good to put him in with the gelding more often, he'll learn more horse manners.And yes you have come a long way in the very short time you have had him! Keep at it, it's gonna pay off (in a positive way) in the long run. |
Member: dres |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 9:51 pm: actually Terrie he was born here.. thus trainer and I talking today .. she is thinking i board him out for a month to get him away from his safe zone and to depend more on her .. Today he came out much like yesterday, not a huge fight but a resistance to the first cue! Again no beating on him just forward pressure.. several laps around the arena some leg yield moves and put away happy ..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: terrido |
Posted on Friday, Jul 24, 2009 - 11:47 pm: *blush* sorry Ann, I meant the 2.5 months he's learned so much in, that's a really short timeframe. Duh, I knew he'd been born there... you said that earlier, silly me. |
Member: canter |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 10:20 am: Ann, seems to me that you have set very clear boundaries for him and are applying pressure and giving a release in his work very appropriately. I suspect that it is just a matter of consistency, time and patience and then you will have a wonderful horse.Frequently the most talented/gifted are the hardest to work with, but boy! When it all comes together, you end up with something spectacular. |
Member: jolie |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 11:03 am: Thanks for the chuckle Ann. I can just picture Tom running for his life from the crippled old man!:>) Much luck from Okie Heart Acres!!!!! |
Member: dustee |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 3:46 pm: In your profile you say "they are continually teaching me". You need to look at all this in a little different light. Sometimes, when we are ready to move up a notch in our education, we get "one of these" horses, and they teach us to keep our minds open. We must never mentally shut down around horses. They are very mind stimulating, and your request for other people's experiences will help to do that. Keep the mind open, try other things, and you will achieve success. And, you will feel wonderful once you get through this.I have a wonderful mare with issues, similar to where you are right now. She used to back up when she didn't want to do something. She felt she was in charge and mocked any of my attempts to regain the top position. I kept going over and over in my mind about what I was doing wrong, and kept saying to myself - you are supposed to be doing things they like!!!! Well, the only thing she liked was to back up..........back up? OK - she was never unbalanced in the reverse direction, and I asked her to back up, and started to sing a song, and continued to ask her to back up about 1000 feet (on excellent, flat surface), very relaxed, casual, but quietly insisting. I got off, and this mare was mentally cooked......She has never backed up again, and told me I could be in charge. She kept using the back up as a threat, and had it turned against her but in a very polite fashion..... Good luck!! |
Member: lhenning |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 9:36 pm: Ann,I've been lurking here, as a learner. These sort of threads are so interesting. Only thing I can add is don't ever raise your emotions as you raise the level of request. Be very methodical and cadenced, with no show of your displeasure at his ignoring your commands. I think these guys like it when they get our gord! When I went through this situation with my youngster, that made a huge difference. I suspect you may already know this, but thought I'd throw it out there. Good luck, Linda |
Member: dres |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 25, 2009 - 11:22 pm: I love the lurkers coming out.. it helps with some more ideas new or confirming I am on the right path..Funny you should say emotions.. today I am riding his mother.. she can be stubborn horse as well.. golly what was I thinking in breeding her ? Anyway at one point I want to just yank her head off.. but instead I sat in the middle of the arena to chill and did some of the give to the bit/rein thing that the NH folks do... it helped put me back in a good place to continue on with I KNOW she knows !!! today I did nothing with Tom other then a spa day .. he got a full grooming / washing and tail scrubbing .. he was so happy I had to drag his A$$ out of the cross ties when he was done..!~ On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 26, 2009 - 12:01 am: I was thinking of this discussion this evening while my daughter was riding my oldest mare, a 20 year old Arab. Daughter was having trouble with her after weaving cones. Complaining she wouldn't walk now...ya all know how hyped an Arab can get, right? And then nothing was working. Grumble, grumble...I told her you have to RELAX yourself, not get upset, and THINK. That horse will do what you ask, if you ask HER way. This is one horse you never win a fight with! And she's just a little thing, barely 14.2. My point is, it took me years to figure out she wasn't dumb, I had to ASK, not demand, and I had to think of new ways to ask, all the while pretending I had no goal in mind. Like I don't care if it takes 20 minutes to cross a creek bed with a trickle of water in it. |
Member: dsibley |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 26, 2009 - 7:30 am: So encouraging to read your thread! I am working with one the same age and same personality. Darrell is very smart and very big, and pretty much has me figured out. He's basically lazy, but when he's 'got it', he's just outstanding. I got so tired of "Ask Tell BLAM, Ask, Tell, BLAM" that one day I surprised the dickens out of the little darling and did "Ask...BLAM". He literally jumped out of his skin and has never been as rotten since. I do believe in consistency, especially with young ones, but in this case, Darrell had my number and must be able to count??This happened just two weeks ago. We'll see what transpires. Since that momentary loss of control and reason, he has been perfectly compliant, willing, and just a sweetheart. I know he's plotting my death, but until then.... |
Member: dres |
Posted on Monday, Jul 27, 2009 - 11:20 pm: OK ,,I once had a trainer that said , first time good , second time maybe, third time you got it..Ok Tom today was AWESOME.. really .. ok he got stuck in the shade.. it is 105 out there.. but once he got past the 'stuck' he was incredible.. his trot was floating across the arena.. when asked for Canter he was lifted and BALANCED .. WAHOO... of course this is the first time for this.... Tomorrow he gets his shoes changed out... so will only ask for walk work.. BUT if this continues.. I will have my non spotted Appy for the show ring. !~ He will roan out tho.. Trainer said... if we can get him past this ''attitude '' issue of his.. he will be great.. he even did a flying lead change .. hehhee..of course he was thinking of bucking but changed his mind and did a lovely change... and continued with a balanced counter canter.. !!!! WAHOOO.... On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: sdms |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 11:47 am: Congratulations, Ann! It sounds like Tom is coming around and that's awesome! Just remember, though, they're like spoiled kids and he might throw a temper tantrum when you're least expecting it. |
Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 7:50 pm: GREAT ANN, I bet he turns out to be one outstanding horse! |
Member: dres |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 28, 2009 - 10:25 pm: Two days in a row now.. so two times = maybe .. if he comes out on Thursday like this 3 = means he has it.. !!He was still a little resistant from halt to walk on .. but less then the day before.. !! He is moving out nicely figuring how to lift his back in the walk... funny canter is easier for him .. Will try to take some video next week .. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 29, 2009 - 11:41 am: Hi Ann,This great news. I don't share the view that this behavior will never come back, but I do think you'll recognize it and know how to shut it down. I suspect that you'll have resistance at various inflection points as the work gets harder, just based on my own experience. But he sounds like a wonderful prospect, and worth a couple of gray hairs... - elk |