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Discussion on Horse wanting to herd the dogs at feeding time - long | |
Author | Message |
Member: klowe |
Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 4:24 pm: Hi all, I have some concerns and questions about handling this behavior on the part of my new boy, Rio.As many of you know, I got him as a replacement companion for my old guy, Paint, when his previous companion was diagnosed with cancer. He's around 10, so he is much younger and more energetic than Paint, who is possibly 30, and Cody was 22 or 23. I no longer consider myself the proprietor of Kathy's Retirement Home for Geriatric Horses, but of course that has brought a whole new set of issues that I'd never thought of. Anyhow, when Cody was alive, Rio clearly became 2nd in command, which I had expected, and now he is #1. I feel he is basically pretty docile, and actually I have the feeling that he would have preferred to remain #2 rather than be #1. However, since Paint has no interest in being boss, Rio is it. My understanding is that he was fairly low in herd status where he came from, and the behaviors that I have concerns about have all arisen in regards to food. The boys get put into individual pens 2x each day for their buckets (grass/alfalfa pellets, Lakin Lite). This happens at pretty regular times. When Cody was alive, Rio didn't have a pen and he did learn some inappropriate behaviors, but it hasn't been difficult to teach him he has to wait until he is inside the pen. (He learned mainly by being given the straight arm or elbow to the neck or shoulder when he became too pushy. That, and discovering that I can turn in really small circles w/bucket way faster than he can!) They get their hay 2x a day also, between 10 am and 12 noon and then again at between 10 pm and 1 am (I work evening shift but can't stay up that late on weekends). There is never a time when there is NO hay to be found. He doesn't do this every time, but now and then he becomes pushy and/or defensive when a person or a dog comes too close to his hay. The dogs are more than happy to get out of his way, but they are not always paying attention or reading the signals correctly (being dogs and not horses). Also they are 12 & 13, and one in particular is rather arthritic, and I am concerned that one of them will be injured. Specifically what Rio does is put his head down (I have seen him try to nip at the tail of one) and then he kind of starts stomping his fronts and kicking out behind. I don't see it as really terribly aggressive, more as a warning, as he hasn't ever actually kicked AT anyone, which he easily could have done. Today I put the dogs inside when I went to get the hay. It's unusually cold here, so I was wearing a parka with a hood that has fur around the rim of the hood (the hood was down). I put their hay tubs in a wheelbarrow as always, and was walking to the garage when Rio, walking behind me, evidently tried to nip at the fur edge of the hood! This was completely new behavior...did he think I was an animal, or what? While I am quite aware that a horse could seriously injure me, I am not at this point afraid of Rio, but I am not always sure what the proper correction should be. I'm pretty sure yelling, "Hey, cut it out!" probably isn't always the best response. So far what I have done is this: the first time I walked by him while he was eating and he kicked out behind (I was by his side), I ran and got the halter and lead, got them on him, took him away from the hay and ran him in circles for a minute. He hasn't done it again, to me, although he may have done it to Kevin, my partner, who isn't a horse person and doesn't always interpret or describe horse behavior very well. The dog-herding is more complicated as I am a bit concerned that if I yell and distract the horse or the dogs, I may make the situation worse. Yesterday he did it twice in a short space of time (some days he seems more antsy than others). What I did when the dogs were safely away was grab a lead-- actually a nylon dog leash-- and slap him on the butt with it until he moved away from the area he was defending. I did the same when he nipped at the parka hood this morning. My set-up here is pretty loose, which hasn't been a problem up until now. We have 2 acres which are fenced around the perimeter, and a fence separating the back yard from the front. At the moment the back yard is generally occupied by the chickens, and the dogs and the horses and humans all coexist in the larger front yard. Probably by many standards, my criteria for animal training are also fairly loose, but I absolutely expect the dogs and horses to move when I tell them to move, and if I ask them to move in a particular direction, then I expect that they will do so. Sorry for the length of this, but I wanted to make sure to provide all the background information that I could. Rio is really a good boy, I think, just not really used to living in such close proximity to dogs and humans. Thanks in advance for what I know will be much useful and insightful advice! Kathy |
Member: stek |
Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 5:47 pm: Hi Kathy, actually I think yelling 'hey cut it out' and getting very 'big' i.e. throwing your arms up, hooting, hollering, and forcing the horse to back out of your space, is exactly the right reaction to the parka-nip attempt. Then quietly go on about your business. By the time you have gone and gotten the halter and lead, whatever you do next is not at all associated with the horse behavior you were trying to correct. The key is instant reaction to bad behavior so the two are clearly associated.If Rio is at all hesitant about moving out of your space or giving up ground around his feed I'd start carrying a crop and use it to move him. After all you don't have hooves or teeth to make your point with. It should only take once or twice before he realizes he needs to respect your personal bubble. Of course, always use a non-physical cue first like clucking to ask them to move, but you should never have to ask twice. That said, Rio may well have just been wondering if you had a squirrel on your face or what! But still for your safety he needs to know that he has to keep his distance unless you invite him into your space. Now as far as the dogs go, I personally think the safest course of action, especially with older dogs, is to keep them separate or keep the dogs on a heel when you are around the horses and keep them in your bubble. Many dogs just don't understand how to stay safe around horses and are an accident waiting to happen. I think your instincts that yelling at the horses/dogs can just confuse matters too; I have seen a dog getting pursued by a horse stop in confusion when the owner yells at them, only to get bitten or stomped on. That said, our own horses and dogs do co-exist just fine most of the time, but at feeding time the dogs are required to 'stay' in a safe place so they don't get run over by accident. |
Member: klowe |
Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 7:02 pm: Thanks, Shannon-- glad to have some confirmation that my instincts aren't always entirely off the wall! Unfortunately, when I say my standards are fairly loose, I really mean it...the dogs know to come when I call them (usually), they know dogs in, dogs out, dogs up, dogs down, and dogs move but I am afraid that heel isn't in their repertoire. They have lived in the country all their lives and are only leashed when going to the vet.Therefore, I am thinking I will have to try to keep the dogs in during hay distribution/feeding time. With the 2 old guys, the dogs got used to running around where and when they feel like it. Cody was actually very careful around dogs, if they started running around his feet he would stop stock-still...wish I knew how he learned that! And I knew Paint was a good boy when my barkey, scaredy-cat dog 1st met him and was standing practically underneath him, barking-- old Paint just put his head down, gave Kola the eye, and went on grazing... Rio is pretty hard on Paint, too. I think part of all this is that he's new at being boss, he only had Cody as an example for 5 weeks. Paint is always perfectly willing to give way, he just can never seem to do it fast enough for Rio. It's hard sometimes to watch my arthritic old guy being run around the yard, but I know better than to interfere with herd behavior on that level. So I'm hoping Rio will settle down in time, before Paint has a heart attack or something. He has acclimated to a lot since he's been here. Barking dogs, doors slamming, the garbage truck are all things that used to send him off in kicking, farting fits, but not so much any more. If anyone can think of an appropriate correction for dog-herding that won't worsen the outcome, I'd still love to hear it! Kathy |
Member: rtrotter |
Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 7:51 pm: Kathy,I learned the hard way to keep my dogs away from my horses. My horses used to be my backyard lawnmowers, but I used to warn my husband not to let the dogs out when they were in there. He didn't listen, the dogs weren't even chasing the horses, something spooked the horses and they took off bucking and kicking. Unfortunately, one of my dogs was in the wrong place at the wrong time and ended up getting kicked and wound up with a broken leg that needed to be surgically repaired. I originally had invisible fence around my entire property, after this happened I moved the fence so that the dogs are kept out of the paddock, much safer that way. As far as training your horse goes and I am not sure this works with horses but I know for sure it works with dogs. Get a few cans with some pennies in it and watch for the activity you do not like, as soon as you see the bad activity throw the can, you do not have to hit him and do not say anything when you throw it. The clatter of the can with the pennies should be enough to back him off whatever he is doing. He has to associate that what he just did was wrong. The only thing is you might scare your dogs if they are being the victims of his possessiveness. As far as your personal space is concerned, I know I walk around with a riding crop when I have to deal with my 19 month old stud colt. There was a time I couldn't even get in the paddock to put his feed, hay or water in there because he was always trying to either run me over or bite me. Now, all he has to do is see the crop and he backs right away from me and waits for me to do whatever it is I have to do. It only took a few pops with the blunt end of the crop to get his attention and respect. The way I look at it, he would get it a lot harder from his mother, she wouldn't put up with that kind of behavior at all. He sort of thinks I'm his mother in human form. Rachelle |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 8:47 pm: I really think the dogs should not be anywhere near the horses at feeding time. It's just asking for an accident. The horses see dogs as predators and are hard wired to either run away or fight. Under saddle or haltered and on a lead is a different deal. I think the food makes fight the obvious choice. The dogs are definitely at risk here. Also agree that the reaction to Rio acting aggressive to you must be immediate. Throw your arms in the air and yell in a deep, growly voice and move toward him--he must give ground in order to understand that you are the alpha when you're in the area. I don't allow any bossing of the other horses when I'm "in the area" either. Leaving to get the halter actually probably makes him the winner of that round since he "ran you off" in his mind. If you need to carry a lunge whip to stay safe do it, but I find mine don't offer to kick when I go after them acting as the alpha mare. |
Member: sodmonst |
Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 9:28 pm: Ditto. You don't get a "do over" if your horse kicks or stomps your geriatric dog. When I am in the pen at feeding time there is 0 tolerance for the top horse acting bossy or possessive with the other horses or territory because when I am in there he is NOT the boss horse. I am. I am not so strict by nature, but it is a safety issue for all, and relieves the horse of the burden of keeping the others in line. The other horses know that he won't agress them while I am there. It all makes for a calmer feeding time. |
Member: klowe |
Posted on Monday, Dec 28, 2009 - 10:19 pm: OK, I really appreciate all the input. I will keep the dogs away from the horses at feeding time. We have not yet had any problem with buckets- possibly because the horses know they are only given their buckets once in the pen, after which they are shut in until they are done? Problems have only been evident (so far) just prior to or during hay distribution, and probably have been aggravated in the mornings because the dogs are waiting for our daily walk and are therefore excited and running around. So I can change the order in which I do things to minimize this kind of interaction.I had thought the behavior had stopped until yesterday, when Rio chased off each dog in the space of a few minutes. I for sure don't want the dogs injured or killed. Also, I didn't mean that Rio is running Paint around when I am present, that is what I observe from the house when they are just being horses. I have no problems asserting my authority as herd boss when I am there. At night when I put out hay- in the dark, sometimes hours later than normal, I have never had any problems with pushiness. I did once come home from work, open the gate and walk back to the car to bring it through, turn and discover Rio attempting to herd Paint straight out the gate! I tried the midnight horse roundup thing once, and having zero desire to do it again, I promptly did pretty much what you all are saying...I jumped forward, waving my arms and yelling NO NO NO! Which worked, it's only after the fact that I wonder sometimes if I just did something really really stupid. I believe I have basically fairly good instincts in terms of animals, although I can't always articulate exactly why or how I do what I do. And I try to be aware that as far as horses go, I am still really inexperienced compared to most of you guys. I will try the can/coins thing, that sounds like a good idea! I've also gotten a trainer recommendation, and if I can scrape together enough cash from time to time, plan on some training- for me, more than the horse, actually. As I thought when I got the 1st one home, OMG, knowing how to ride a horse doesn't mean I know anything about taking care of one! But I'm learning, as fast as I can. And I do wonder, how did Cody learn to stop moving when the dog ran down the steps right underneath him? Thanks for all the good thoughts. Kathy |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 29, 2009 - 1:44 pm: The one thing that I want to emphasize is the timing of the correction. As others above have written to be effective the correction needs to occur immediately with the undesirable behavior.Important to remember is that herd dynamics can be taught at anytime. The simple act of haltering and leading, making sure the horse follows directions correctly and promptly, is an excellent way to establish your proper place in the herd hierarchy. Lunging further reinforces this lesson. DrO |