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Discussion on Training schedule difference for cutting QH versus WB
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 12:50 pm:
Hi All, I am starting to lunge Tax. She is an 11 year old finished cutting horse[double Doc O Lena] who got injured [tendon injury left front]4 years ago. Now after a delivering a dead foal a bit fat[well reasonably fat ] but moving comfortably and relaxed certainly not lame. Two different front feet[especially the one from the injured leg is small] both of them small according to my WB standards.
My idea is starting to work her in through the basics as I used to do with the WB's, ie 5 days a week about an hour lungeing slowly increasing speed[starting with 80% walk up to 30 50 20 walk trot canter but ALWAYS slow and relaxed]
I already found that cutting horses are not exactly bred for this type of work in the exercise physioligy article.
Also the roundpen soil is a bit hard but flat, I can exchange two days of work for long walks on a trail with or without rider.
Would shoeing [esp front feet] be prudent to avoid problems?
Do I need to aim at more walk and shorter periods of trot and canter because of the difference in horsetype or just go slower?
I intend to have her completely vet checked if she is in a good condition to be able to decide how far and which way to go with her so now aim at conditioning and just need to be steered in the direction that is suitable for a small QH.
Reason for this post and question is that I am constantly slapped on my fingers with my ideas of training feeding and caring for horses with the reasoning that 'they are totally different'.
I would add that I am used to be VERY careful due to always training either young or formerly injured horses so the risk of overdoing doesn't seem that big to me, just perhaps lenght and speed of training?
Thanks for bearing with me once more
Jos
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 1:41 pm:
First Jos, imho, a horse is a horse is a horse, no matter the breed!! What matters for training, conditioning is simply the horse! What shape is the horse in? What muscle tone, body condition, mental state, etc. That's really all that matters. They ALL will benefit from basically the same general "routine", the only customizing to be done is based on THAT horse, forget breed!!!
OK, so with that in mind, bringing a horse back after so long without being "worked", I wouldn't start out with 5 days a week. Just me, but I would look at this horse the same way I would a green youngster that has never been worked before at all. I would start with three days a week, and no hour long longe sessions! Start out with maybe 15 minutes, just make those minutes count.
Imho, starting a horse that's been totally out of work into an hour long work session 5 days a week is way too much. Think of it as you being chubby and out of shape, can you go to the gym an do a hard hour long workout 5 days a week and not be so sore you can hardly move? yeah well, same with a horse.
I would use longe yes, but no more to begin with than about 7-8 minutes in each direction, and mostly walking. The trick is to get the horse really moving within the gait so they are really working well through the back, but at that again only very short bursts with lots of relax and stretch otherwise.
Begin slowly, getting the horse stretching and relaxing, then increase the asking for forward without breaking to trot. When the horse can move at a walk just under a trot hold that pace for a few minutes until the horse breaks to a slower pace or tries to trot, that's when they tell you they are done.
This should only be maybe one to two minutes at most initially because the horse simply will not have enough strength to sustain working correctly through the back for very long. I always try to allow the horse to tell me when they are done. When they start out it's easier for them to go faster or to stop than to sustain the active movement.  Initially that is the stopping place, I do not ask for more. From here then I increase the "work" burst time, again mostly allowing the horse to tell me when they have had enough.
I want to help them build muscle and strength without soreness of any kind. And yes it is a slow process, but especially coming off a serious injury and many years out of "work" I would prefer to go at the pace the horse can handle, no matter HOW slow that may be.
And yes after the horse can sustain a very active and correct walk for about 5 minutes in both directions I add trot and do the same there, asking for a good working trot that is very active, and again allowing the horse to tell me when they have had enough.
But this is just me, and many people push horses much faster. I care about the horse's mental well being along with the physical, and of course do not want to introduce lameness.
As for shoes, that should be discussed with a farrier. It's dependent on the horse's feet and the ground, etc. Or you could just start out and see how her hooves handle it.
I also suggest you not worry about getting your fingers slapped. Mine are always getting slapped!! Hardly anyone agrees with my ideas and methods, and that's fine with me, really. I have my proof, I know what works FOR ME and my horses ... and that's really all I care about.
Whatever you do, have fun bringing this girl back!
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 2:14 pm:
Thanks Terri!
I have to correct myself though, she was during pregnancy lunged[mostly walk and a jog] although I really slowed to walk the last few weeks. She did half an hours work this morning with jog and god firm walk without a problem. I would happily leave her alone more as we both get a bit bored but given the fact that she lives in a round pen sized pen with a big shelter and all other areas are now taken by the cows and other horses that have 'invaded' our property[Mikes eldest daughter suddenly needed a place to stay with her menagerie] I thought she would need more time 'out'.
I CAN take her for walks on alternating days though that might perhaps be a good idea.
How about that?
Jos
PS As far as shoes go: new farrier, that's why I check with HA!
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 6:48 pm:
Jos I would definitely add long walks into the mix, will help break up the monotony.
I have to say while physically a horse is a horse is a horse, cutting horses are bred for short bursts of energy (chasing cows) followed by long periods of standing around. Some of the QHs I have known would sour very quickly if worked for an hour straight, but were fine with more interval-type training.
I would try to mix gymnastics, obstacles, and anything that will get her thinking into the workout sessions.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 6:58 pm:
Hi Jos! for what it's worth, I totally agree with Terri, and you should know better than to worry about slapped fingers given the company you have where you are! I usually do things in week long increments, but I do think my Arabs are in pretty good condition to start out with as they get turned out and move around a lot. Days off from lunging imo would be good to hand walk.
There might be an article on HA regarding conditioning, I haven't really looked so don't know. The Horse mag just had an excellent article on conditioning which you might get something out of. I assume it is also online on their web site.
I know the kind of dirt you are dealing with and like you would wonder about the need for shoes. Light work, esp. at the walk, and your mare should be fine imo. You could put boots on her for extended work if you didn't want to use shoes. Fancy has feet similar, I think, to what you are talking about; many QH and Paints do. (we won't go into why here!) If they are hard, she'll probably be all right. Be cautious about letting them grow out and get to the size you are used to, but instead just keep them healthy and trimmed for the size they are. If you let them grow out to where they look "normal" to you, you might run into wall separation. Hopefully, your farrier or vet can help you with this.
I hope you and Tex will enjoy this process!!
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 7:22 pm:
Shannon,that's very helpful, it states what I read into the article on HA. I tried already to get her to make loads of transitions not like with the WB every circle but even every few passes from walk to trot and back and then walk trot canter and back. Found before she has big difficulties with an even canter on a circle so will leave that out for a while. Also I feel as if the opening and closing of circles is harder on her? So will be careful with that to. These horses are so stocky built it almost seems as if they turn on their haunches better then do a lateral type of movement and that is not what I want her to do at this moment.
Sara I should know better but never learn! She is definitely not in the condition as your arabs are so I will go slow[hey I am not in that condition either]
Will take care her feet are kept like you explained. You are right now the feet look bigger the toe seems to long soo... Guess I'd better start reading!
As for shoes I wondered more about a shoe with a pad to help her tendon? [to absorb the shock?] or is that overdoing?
Jos
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 7:31 pm:
Yup walks is a great idea!
You know her better than I, so as long as you don't over work her, all will be well.
Shannon, breeding may play a small part, but when conditioning a horse you can use a general rule of thumb, then condition FOR the work that will be done by the horse. For instance, you say QH are bred for short bursts of speed and then standing around all day long. Well ranch QHs do short bursts of speed but may do so often through a day and then are walking most of the rest of the day.... ;) My dressage horses can do the same, or can go out on a 7 hour trail ride, or do a really difficult 7 minute dressage test. An Arab may be conditioned to cover a 50 mile endurance ride. It's all in the overall conditioning for the work to be done. The danger is just in over doing the conditioning, meaning pushing too far too fast which causes soreness. That's the only thing to avoid, as long as one listens to the horse all should be well.
I can actually work my horses harder in 15 minutes on longe than most people can longing for an hour. Course I can also work my horses under saddle much harder at walk than at any other pace. ;) It's all in how you do what you do.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 7:51 pm:
Jos, you may find than smaller circles are much harder. Again, she is much like a youngster! Without muscle tone and strength, balance may be a challenge. That she has difficulty cantering on a circle tells me she lacks strength. If you put her on a 30m circle and/or walk along a larger diameter circle and straight lines, I'll bet she might be able to canter a bit. It's balance and that will come from having the strength to canter on the smaller circles.
And yes transitions, transitions and more transitions to build backend muscle. Enlarging and spiraling in on the circle too will build strength, but again, based on what she is able to do. You can try things and see how she handles it, and gauge based on her actions/reactions. If for instance you ask her to go to canter and she rushes, allow it! Make the circle larger or walk a straight line a bit until she settles a little without so much rushing, if she can do that. Same with trotting, again she may need to rush a bit at first.
I look for lot of hock activity, and a settling into the rhythm in all gaits. When they reach this they are usually moving correctly, using their back muscles properly, etc. When they slow or speed up again that's when I know they're done. Yeah it's a feel thing.
You can ask for a transition on the 1/4 circle when you feel she is ready. This will give you 4 transitions on a circle. It also tells you how responsive she is. ;) You can also ignore points in the circle and go by a number of strides to transition and keep that for a while. Like three strides, transition, 3 strides, transition, repeat. (or 5 strides, etc) This helps a bit because of course they will quickly anticipate the transition, which is fine because at this stage ultimately it's the work and the quality of the longe work that matters. And helps when first getting back under saddle too to use patterns like that.
All I can say is that when the longe work is done correctly it is anything but boring for horse and person no matter how long the session! We all know there is a huge difference in working a horse correctly on longe and just allowing the horse to run around at the end of the line.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 8:10 pm:
Jos, personally, I use leg wraps when lunging, for several reasons, one of them being tendon protection and support. If she isn't having tendon problems/lameness currently, I wouldn't worry about pads. Again, your vet should be the best source of info. If you aren't sure of your vet's expertise, I can give you the name of a couple of very good leg/foot vets not too far away from you, although you would have to trailer her over to them.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 8:34 pm:
Jos,
As you said in your post above this is a finished cutting horse, cutting horses think and thinking and instinct is what makes them good at what they do. She is also older, so even though she may have lost some condition from the long layoff, she will most likely "fit up" pretty quickly.
I personally do not like lungeing horses for extremely long periods of time, I think its bad on their stifles and their brains. The most I lunge is 15-20 minutes both ways and I start out with 5 minutes each way and gradually build it up.
I'd get her out of the round pen and go for a ride(albeit slowly), she and you would enjoy it more than trying to school her for an hour 5 days a week. I can see every couple of days or every three days as a change of pace, but I do not think her cowhorse brain is going to like it too much.
As far as the tendon goes, if you are concerned, I'd have it ultrasounded, but after 4 years, its probably as healed as much as its gonna be, now you just have to make sure she strengthens it in order to get it to the point it needs to be for the work she's gonna do.
As far as the shoes, I'd keep them off as much as possible, a good functional foot will serve her better in the long run and with tendon problems you want to keep as much stress off the tendon as possible. A beveled barefoot hoof with a short toe would work well. Boot if necessary on hard or tough terrain.
Good Luck with Tax and I am sorry for the loss of your foal.
Rachelle
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 10:10 pm:
Will buy leg wraps tomorrow found the kind I want.[think polowraps with cotton pads underneath will be to hot over here in summer]
You are right Terri lungeing is never boring I like it better then riding[well I am certainly much better at it] at this moment I am playing human hotwalker for about 30 of the 40 minutes.Had ofcourse forgotten that I can take this horse and in this countryside on a walk without getting into trouble with horse or traffic .
And yes I think she isn't strong enough to canter in the 60 foot roundpen. She throws her head up fixes her back muscles and runs..That will get better overthe next months she is already trotting nice and low with a good rythm.
Thanks Rachelle I am happy Tax feels as good as she does, better then I had hoped for in so short a period. You are right I could take her out [we did that with the Standardbreds in Holland with their sulkies quite often had forgotten that! Those big Holsteiners were just to much to handle for me on trail] She hasn't been on trail much as I found last year[tried to 'cut' squirrrels in the absence of cows during a trailride in between snorting] although I feel a bit heavy for her [14.2 h and me 160 pound thanks US Quisine]
Will handwalk her though every other day on the trails around us!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 10:34 pm:
I'm with Rachelle on the lunging. A finished cutting horse is just gonna resent that much work that doesn't really utilize that brain. I've had several--got three right now--Doc O Lena bred horses and they're smart, confident, and while they can be reactive, as a good cow horse should be, they're pretty fearless. I think an hour lunging is hard on joints and feet and both my vet and farrier think the round pen and the circles on a lunge line are WAY over utilized. Don't insult her with repetitive work--I know, you use transitions, circle size, etc., but to a finished cutting horse, that's just mind numbing. She's bred to think and work. I wouldn't worry much about her condition. Just let her tell you when she's tired. She will definitely tell you she's bored if you lunge too long and her attitude will go downhill fast. Just enjoy her! You won't have to worry about her working in frame once you learn how she's been trained. Cutting horses must work off their rear ends, be light in front and they don't work on the bit. They are taught to carry themselves collected without you holding them. You're in for a treat!
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 11:23 pm:
Personally I think any working horse uses their brain! See Jos? Not everyone agrees with me. haha
"Cutting horses must work off their rear ends, be light in front and they don't work on the bit. They are taught to carry themselves collected without you holding them. " A correctly trained dressage horse is exactly the same (like mine)! You are not supposed to hold a horse, heck I don't know a human that is strong enough to do that. ;) And technically "on the bit" is "on the aids" and a good cutting or reining horse that is working in self carriage is "on the aids'!
Symantecs, regardless of the wording it's all the same.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 12:30 am:
This is getting interesting. You scared me abit at first Julie,Tax and me accidentally bumped in to each other and I think we like each other[I like her character and attitude very much] But I like her so much because of her thinking, attitude AND certainly working attitude. My favorite WB's had exactly the same 'eye' and the way they 'asses' people is also the same.
Weird that you think she would be bored. She reacts on the lunge trying to find out what exactly I want[OK I speak Dutch] but very interested and very responsive. The few times I rode her I especially liked how light she was on the bit and how she responded and didn't have the impression she resented that. Must admit that I am taught by my former horses[esp the little arab that had had a damaged mouth] to be 'soft'
Will however remember her background and be sensitive to 'boredom'
Oh btw I got her in the first place because to other people didn't feel comfortable/safe on her :to 'hot' to their liking. I never thought she was hot just sensitive. You'd better not shift your weight fi. But an english saddle.. never seen before no problem. etc.
Fun to hear the different opinions but I tend to agree with the first statement:a horse is a horse is a horse and she needs to fit her 'attendant'
Jos
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 12:37 am:
Just a second thought Julie: as the horses are confined to such small spaces over here and even in a bigger paddock because of no grazing stand a lot instead of exercising themself wouldn't you think you are forced by those circumstances to biuld up their fysics more?
I see a horrible amount of breaking down and early arthritic horses over here.
Jos
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 12:36 pm:
;) Jos you have really opened the perverbial can of worms now! LOL
I believe that yes, horses here tend to have to be retired from work at really early ages from the way they are kept, and more importantly the way they are worked. This is just my personal opinion, but locking them in such confined spaces and having them get out for only a couple hours daily, usually being worked too hard too fast during that time all adds up to joint issues very early on. I also believe that many owners are just ignorant of what is truly best for their horses. They just don't know and place their faith in trainers or friends that may not know or worse may not care.
I agree though that yes keeping them in top physical shape, as any athlete should be, helps them to remain sound and happier much longer.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 12:51 pm:
Sorry forgot, I also wanted to add about boredom and longing.
Just because the word longe means working a horse on a line doesn't have to mean it is boring work for the horse. Just because I choose to ride my horse in an arena more than out on trails also does not mean it is boring for my horse.
Again, most people don't really understand how to use a longe to exercise a horse. So yes just having a horse run around at the end of a line would be highly boring, I fully agree with that. But really working a horse is never boring for any horse, or rather shouldn't be.
My mare is super smart along with being super sensitive. I too picked her because she is a thinking mare, she uses her brain unlike many horses I have had pleasure of working with. With her, if I teach her something new, she gets it the first time, if I ask for the new thing a second time she gives me her "bored already" reaction. So how do I work a horse like this on a longe line for say 30 minutes or work her under saddle in just walk for 30 minutes and not bore her to death?? It's actually very easy! Change. I am constantly changing what I ask for. She has to pay close attention to know what's next. And for her, that's great fun! I can tell when my thinking wavers because I lose her focus just that quickly. ;) When I continue to work my brain a bit faster than she hers we do quite well and she is always asking "what's next?" and very happy to do as asked while being ready for whatever is next.
Course I also play with things like I will not use my voice or body language while longing and will just use my thoughts and "energy" to see how she responds. It's not only very eye opening, it's fabulous fun for us both. Some days I will use only voice, and some days only body language. So I mix it up quite a bit, but I will stick with what I start out with usually for the full work session that day. It just helps reinforce it all.
The other thing I do is pay close attention to how she is moving and then I work toward helping her to balance herself more on one leg or other as she moves, etc. Not many people can really do this on a longe. ;) Or not many I know of anyway. Jos I am sure you know what I am talking about here.
Again, I get slapped alot because everyone has their ideas, experiences and knowledge which is usually very different from mine. We all do what we know how to do, and hopefully are still open to learning more and becoming better in the process. It's what I love about this forum, because I learn so much in here too.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 4:01 pm:
Terrie,
I get slapped a lot too. I have very weird ideas when it comes to a lot of things I do with my race horses.From shoes( or lack thereof) to training ( I use a tow gate) to the way and what I feed, to the fact that my horses race cold( no drugs). Today I had a conversation with a fellow trainer( who also shoes horses), who several months ago told me I was absolutely nuts to not want to put nails in my horses feet and that I could not possibly race or train my horses barefoot(I get this a lot). Now, he agrees with me that if I can keep the nails out of my horses feet that's the way to go, but he does not think it's cost effective in a racing environment and does not understand that a balanced trim is probably one of the most important parts of dealing with horses and no one other than me will do it. Personally, I really don't care what everyone else does as long as my horses are happy and healthy and doing what I need and want them to do.
I am dealing in a discipline that has such set ways of doing things that anything even halfway new or different becomes a threat. I once threatened to take my racehorse to the paddock with a sign that says my horses races on hay, oats and water, does yours? because I did not want to be a chemical engineer in order to race my horses. I got out of the business for 12 years because of this issue. I started training a different way and found my horses stayed sounder, raced more consistently and enjoyed what they were doing more, plus I wound up enjoying it more because I knew what I was doing was the right thing.
I too have learned a lot from HA and from every person that posts on this forum, so while we may disagree about certain things. I think we all have our horses best interests at heart, no matter what discipline we are doing.
Rachelle
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 4:04 pm:
Would like to see you work from time to time Terrie. I always went to watch friends train for fun in Holland. Do agree about the lackof boredom no matter what you do if you keep the interest of both parties caught. Frankly I have been more bored on a few calm trailrides plodding along then when longeing or doing work in the arena.There is so much variety with free jumping groundpoles double longe and that excludes the work under the saddle.
Perhaps it is just what suits you best or what you are used to. A good German trainer always said that horses get much less bored then there riders. Also a point of view to consider.
I am used to having horses at the very least out free for 4 hours a day but then they would be stabled the rest of the time. On top of that five days a week an hours work was considered the goal to keep a horse well trained.
Over here the overall pen is much bigger[round pen size] but pasture non existant. I see horses standing in bigger fields in a corner the whole day. I was wondering if they wouldn't be better of with smaller pens and an hour on a hotwalker in the absence of work to keep them 'moving'.
Also the soil is so rock hard that the average Dutch horse would get sore. I now understand why only the impeccable xrays were accepted for export. But these horses are used to it so how to adapt?
Guess it is trial and I hope not to much error. In this enormous country the situation is already very different from state to state and then we are all talking about different types of horses to!
I do agree that the info I get from 'talking' to all different HA members is invaluable
Jos
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 4:11 pm:
Rachelle from what I have seen of the Standardbreds in Holland, you must get a lot of comments.They really are set in their ways! Perhaps because everybody always needed to earn their keep in that discipline all the other ones in Holland are no business but 'amateur'
Still there always were people who were very knowledgeable and took excellent care of their horses. You should have heard the comments when I started training the WB's on condition too like the SB'S as I felt it would help them!
But without different ideas there would be no progress! And a lot less fun!
Jos
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 12:20 pm:
Well Jos, come on out! (Seriously!) Incidently I have a dutch horse (Friesian), but she is a US born girl. ;)
On feet: having a balanced foot is imperative, whether shod or not! My old farrier was my TBs (Owen) track farrier, he does what he calls "proper balance movement" trimming and shoeing. My Friesian needs shoes in front or she wears her hooves down to nothing on this hard ground, but my TB is just fine barefoot. In fact since I began using his old track farrier about two years after I got him, his feet (even WITH shoes back then) grew two sizes to a 'size 1', today they are a but larger than a "size 3", that's if I use an Easy Boot as a guide for foot size that is. Anyway he balances the foot for the horse's overall balance and straightness. He is the only farrier I have ever had that always watched the horse move at walk and trot away from and toward and circling both directions, looked at the horse in front and rear and checked the back and neck positions while horse stood square before he lifted a foot to trim! Once finished he does the same again. My TB has arthritis so bad in his hocks and sacrum that I had to retire him from riding at age 9! He is now gonna be 18 in a couple months, and since having this farrier work with him, and having him in pasture he moves better than he did when he was wining races! No signs, well hardly any signs, of the arthritis. Mostly that shows up during feet trimmings because he can't lift his leg high and to the side comfortably on either rear leg. And my mare's feet also grow all the time still, rather they expand, even with shoes in front. I had my old farrier come here and teach my new farrier (we moved) how to do "proper balance movement" trimming and shoeing. Now he comes every few months and works with him, and trims MY horses for me. ;) In fact the last trim and shoeing he did on my mare in October I had taken her for a saddle fit the next day and a woman was staring at her and her feet for the longest time. Well around here people stare at Friesians, so I tried to just ignore it. She finally walked up to me, looking at my mare's front feet and said "Wow, whoever is doing her feet does a fabulous job!" she smiled at me and walked away. LOL It's something I know, he does a fab job which is why I use him when I can, and why I wanted him to teach my new guy.
Yup keeping the horse "entertained" is sometimes a challenge but I find none of my horses or any horse I work with, is ever bored, no matter what were doing. Yeah I too get a bit bored with a plodding along trail ride. If I want an exciting trail ride I take my mare out! LOL She is NOT a trail pony by any means, everything is scary. It's quite "showy" because we do loads of really fancy movements when we are out on trail. Course that for me isn't much fun either I have to stay on my toes, and frankly she wears me out, little girl is very strong. well duh, a 1350 pound horse verses me... LOL
I feel for you, really do, working on tracks is tough enough, and doing what's right for the horses is usually not taken well by others. My Owen had a trainer that cared more about the horses than winning the next race. When Owen bowed a tendon he nursed him back to health (about a year!) carefully bringing him back into running condition and then yes raced him a few times. Course Owen didn't place and that's how I got him. His track Vet told me many times that his trainer was always more interested in the horses being healthy, happy and comfortable than anything else. If they were a bit off, they didn't run, he'd scratch them, when others would drug them to get them thru the next race. Not many respected him though for that. I met him about a year after I got Owen, he really loved my boy, He genuinely cared for all his horses, but he said he really had a soft spot for Owen. In fact everyone I met at the track he raced out of adored my boy, the all wanted to know how he was doing, and to see photos of him. (And they all told me the same thing, "he was one FAST horse!" It's true he is super fast even today.) With the track surfaces these days, running a barefoot horse shouldn't be an issue. They don't need to 'dig into' the track even if it muddy. Course if they're running on turf then I can understand why some would feel shoes would be best.
It's great fun to 'meet you' and trade ideas! And if you are out to California, come on over!! I love sharing my mare with people, she is pretty awesome to ride.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 10:28 pm:
I recognised the Friesian heritage from the pic in your profile! I am BORN in Friesland but don't look the part
Bet that during my exploring the US I will manage to find you as we both are in CA. Can't be that difficult!
Jos
PS took Tax out on a long walk and she had the time of her life, couldn't believe how big the world is
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 11:29 am:
How fun Jos, don't you just love opening up their world!
IMO you can really do a lot on the trail, I do almost everything I do in the arena when out on the trail. When riding out on a more sensitive/aware type we even get to do some upper level dressage movements (airs above ground, canter pirouettes) that we could never pull off in the arena! 
Seriously though on the trail we get lovely big swinging walks that can be a challenge in the arena, nice forward gaits overall, and we use the obstacles in nature to mix it up, like side-passing over a log, shoulder-in and haunches-in when on a more open road, etc. Throw in that all of it is over more varied terrain and that makes it even more challenging.
Not sure where you are in CA but if you are close to an area where you can ride on the beach you should try that too! We are about an hour from the coast but try to take the horses out a couple times a year and they just love it. I love letting them totally open up and gallop full out down a long stretch of beach without worrying about stepping in a hole or something. Of course that would be only after you get her fitted up a bit... my arab will run himself to death on the beach if I am not careful with him.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 12:14 pm:
Oh almost forgot .. Terrie re: breed specific type training, the QH doing short bursts interspersed with walking all day was just exactly what I meant by interval training.
I'm not suggesting a QH can't be ridden for an hour straight, on the contrary as you say most ranch horses are used all day long. But asked to think and be focused I guess for shorter bursts. For instance, following the cows for an hour, then doing a short concentrated burst to go bring back that wandering cow, then following the cows for an hour, then another concentrated burst. Or, standing around watching the herd, then going to cut out a calf, then standing around, then cutting etc.
Like you, when working on the longe I make the exercise very mentally demanding, and to ask for intense concentration for 60 minutes straight for many of the cow horses I have known would result in a sour horse. Maybe because they do give so much and learn so quickly that they need more frequent breaks from their lessons?
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 1:29 pm:
;) Shannon I don't think anyone really asks a horse to focus intently and work hard on longe for a full hour straight. That'd probably sour most any horse. In an hour I only really work the horse maybe a max of about 40 minutes, there are numerous breaks through out the work session. I hardly ever longe a horse for a full hour, but if I do it's not just circles either, there are always loads of straights to work more laterally.
I understand what you are saying about the intensity of the work and concentration/mental aspects required. Yup some horses bore easily, no doubt there.
All horses are smart, some are just quicker than others. LOL The challenge for me is learning how to hold their interest well enough that they keep asking for more and more.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 1:34 pm:
Hey Jos, email me privately, pls terriedouglas@hughes.net I would love to know where you are in Ca.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 4, 2010 - 10:37 am:
Update on Tax: After a few weeks of [light]lungeing 'English style' madam understands that 'Ho' means slower not complete stop with me. The weird demands[slow trot, opening and closing circles AND a lot of very active walk] fascinate her and she seems to enjoy herself, no sign of any boredom! Saddle will fit again decently if she looses 50 pounds.
Funny how quick she gains condition. And the way she walks, thought she would resemble "Grasse" the fatty half arab I had in France but absolutely not. Tax is very round in the topline, very light on the bit and although the trot is VERY short if rythmic nice and round topline and 'on the circle'. Also when she 'jumps' in a canter she goes UPwards tiny passes and it takes power but nicely upwards. Will she be able to jump? Wouldn't even surprise me.
All in all: terrific attitude, much faster progress then I had hoped for, and much more ability to 'sit' then I had expected given her not so upward front. That obviously is counteracted by the enormous power of her but!
Oh and most important: completely sound and'tendonleg' stays cool and slim!
Jos
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 4, 2010 - 1:00 pm:
Happy Dancing This is great Jos!!
Oh and Happy Easter to you too.
Keep us posted, sounds like she will make fabulous progress, and I am very glad to hear the leg remains cool and unswollen.
Good job you!!}
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Apr 5, 2010 - 12:46 pm:
Great news Jos!
Do you have another cue that you use for full stop? One of my biggest pet peeves is horses that just slow down when given the cue to stop and I really like having a verbal cue that means 'all 4 feet must come to an immediate halt!'
I always use the verbal 'eeeeaaasy' when asking for a slower gate. E.g. 'walk eeeassy' to slow down versus 'walk UP' to increase tempo.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 6, 2010 - 12:52 am:
HA Shannon those cues would have done perfect! but I never ask a horse for a fullstop[well undersaddle but even then about always from one gait to another.and not from canter to stop[i would probably fall of  ]
Just thought that she could handle the change in cues better then I can: she is 11 I am 53!
Jos
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